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VW MKIII-A3/B4 TDIs This is a discussion about MKIII-A3/MkIII Jetta/Golf (<99.5) and B4 Passats (96,97) TDI's. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old February 16th, 2019, 02:20   #7171
Digital Corpus
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B4, 10 mm VE Pump diagram states "1 900 210 154" for the Bosch part number for the head seal/o-ring. Quick netted a diagram and confirmed specs close to what I've previously measured, 60mm x 2.5mm o-ring. Hey look, Viton. If I can track down the other PN and/or sizes of the other o-rings, I'll make a relevant thread. There are other online sources for fluorocarbon/fluoroelastomer o-rings too.
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Old February 17th, 2019, 04:15   #7172
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I bought a bag of 5, in that size. I probably got them from eBay.

-Todd
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Old February 17th, 2019, 15:03   #7173
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I donít post a whole lot-mostly because Iím out just driving the Jetta but I pit new fuel lines on the car, and today I put in a new kenwood stereo. While I was at it, I got a new light bulb for the heater control. Not earth shattering, but I want the car to get all fixed up. I drive it about 40 miles each way for work.

I love this car!
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Old February 17th, 2019, 22:42   #7174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvmydiesels View Post
i was looking at valve springs. lucky i got info from VW, seems specific info. it seems VW changed valve springs about ~98 or was it ~97?? all i know is my model looks to take the later springs(outer).
i dont know about other valve train and cam changes about this time. good thing i checked, as it looks the springs called for (623D) are ALH type springs? stiffer springs as i see. idk, as i have not much knowledge about mk4s and ALHs, but it seems the ALH later spring is stiffer, we with AHUs still used inner springs? ALHs used a single (the outer) spring?
idk if my AHU head had dual springs, or a single spring. if the spring retainer is for dual is the stiffer outer too much to use with an inner (for mostly stock uses and a stock cam)?
The spring change probably coincides with when the valves were changed.

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Old February 18th, 2019, 07:49   #7175
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im not really 100% aware of what you refer to as when the valves were changed.
i have a few AHU heads. all have the two spring set up, yet my year is listed for the later spring. single, outer, ALH type. perhaps retroed by mfg in years since.
all the valves i find now are AHU & ALH compatible if i understand correctly. 7mm stems.
i just wanted to be clear while im ordering the last of my parts, and before assy of a head.
i will probably go with the single ALH springs, and get new retainers as well, not locks or keepers, of course i have them, the spring top retainers. not 100% sure if the part# i have is for both the single spring set up and will accept an inner spring as well. part# i have ends with 641 C.
thanks,
oh and ty corpus for that thread size.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 07:56   #7176
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1z & earlier AHUs (I believe) had 8mm valve stems. They were later changed to 7mm valve stems.
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Old February 18th, 2019, 08:00   #7177
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so the (other) concern i have. in finding the timing idler roller. i ve tried a few places, spent a few extra bucks, and now have a few extra rollers. the roller from VW, *-- one i happen to have, its quite a good bit thicker than the INA rollers currently available. napa i think a few weeks ago had 2 rollers listed, one for $27, turned out to be the thinner INA roller. they i think had another listed @~$44, this one disappeared, i cannt find it, the $27 one became now ~$34. so in trying to find a more 'stock' thicker one, now i have more than a few in my stock. i went to VW and asked them, they want $79 for one!! part# 028 109 244 B. i think the INA # is the same. yet the INA roller the outer part is quite thinner.
any place that a more affordable thicker roller is available?
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Old February 18th, 2019, 08:13   #7178
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^huh, i stand corrected
i looked back at napa web site. the roller listed price changed. this part# is now $44. so as it was a few weeks ago i cannt say for sure. as i bought one roller for $27, got it, it was the INA, looked back roller was now ~$34, bought one, it too was INA, look now roller is listed @$44. idk.
the napa part# listed is with out the 'B'.
its: 028 109 244. so its not the latest part(#).
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Old February 18th, 2019, 10:24   #7179
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seems i have 2 topics going
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Addy View Post
The spring change probably coincides with when the valves were changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprocket View Post
1z & earlier AHUs (I believe) had 8mm valve stems. They were later changed to 7mm valve stems.
what sprocket points out is what i was thinking. then again i think i ve heard of AHUs with 8mm valves, never seen one. i cannt really find 8mm valves that are supposed to fit AHU either. perhaps they have been phased out.
i can find 7mm valves, and if i take it correct 7mm valves fit AHU and also ALH(??). all the heads i ve seen are dual springs. thats an AHU(older) set-up. having checked with VW the current spring called for is a single, looks to fit the ALH. the older and softer AHU outer looks to be hard to find available. ALH spring not so.
looking at kerma specs on the springs and set-ups they can use. the dual spring and the ALH single spring have similar values. the ALH has some more tension when the valve is fully open, and some less tension when the valve will be fully closed/or almost closed. the more tension when fully open is good for safety.
then again kerma also has a dual set-up. the inner AHU(older)spring, and an outer ALH spring. for higher tuned motors. esp with cams like stage 2 or 3.
as im mostly stock, with some power improvements i doubt i need the dual spring set-up. and i rarely red-line. just pull good power and low and mid range rpms. and have my mech timing right about on!.

i saw an older post about these springs, perhaps circa '06. one of the members posting was misunderstanding what was going on with the springs. he had thought with a single spring the spring would perform with less tension. i didnt update, and it seems an old member not online anymore. the single spring is stiffer, and is of a similar performance to the older dual set up.
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Old February 19th, 2019, 21:45   #7180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddA1 View Post
I bought a bag of 5, in that size. I probably got them from eBay.

-Todd
How'd they fit?

I have 2 pumps apart and o-ring tables are telling me to use bigger 63-64 mm ID or -144 o-rings for the dimensions I'm measuring. In a "static piston/cylinder" of the following:
Cylinder ID: 67.45 mm, 2.656"
Piston OD: 67.40-67.43 mm, 2.654-2.655"
Groove Depth: 1.85 mm, 0.073"
Groove Width: 3.05 mm, 0.120"

There is only ~0.25 mm, ~0.001" expansion of the aluminum over the steel/iron at the dimensions listed.
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Old February 20th, 2019, 00:38   #7181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Corpus View Post
How'd they fit?
I have 2 pumps apart and o-ring tables are telling me to use bigger 63-64 mm ID or -144 o-rings for the dimensions I'm measuring. In a "static piston/cylinder" of the following:
Cylinder ID: 67.45 mm, 2.656"
Piston OD: 67.40-67.43 mm, 2.654-2.655"
Groove Depth: 1.85 mm, 0.073"
Groove Width: 3.05 mm, 0.120"
There is only ~0.25 mm, ~0.001" expansion of the aluminum over the steel/iron at the dimensions listed.
K, so I'm not the only one to question this.

If you stretch a 60 mm x 2.5 mm o-ring to the 63.5 mm groove diameter of the pump head, aka 2.5", the chord shrinks to an effective diameter of 2.434 mm. For static applications it seems a compression of 18-25%. With a groove depth of 1.85 mm and a total compression height of 1.85-1.88 mm, this means you don't want an OD between 2.46-2.51 mm. There are tolerances to the chord diameter and ID of the o-ring too. Bosch's 60 mm x 2.5 mm o-ring seems to take this into account, but is sized a little bitty bit small. A SAE "dash" o-ring 142, 143, 144 and metric IDs of 62 mm and 63 mm all should fit, technically. If you switch to a square profile ring, then pick the smallest of the set, though you might get a pinched o-ring.

Sealing pressure is related to the hardness of the o-ring too, as you can see here and here.

Btw, https://www.marcorubber.com and https://www.allorings.com/ are likely the same company.

I cannot seem to find the thread about taking out the one M10 bolt on the back of one's IP and hooking up a pressure gauge to it. That thread had a handy graph that showed the case pressure vs RPM and I was hoping to utilize this in order to suggest a hardness rating vs dash number or metric size.

All of this is to say that though the Bosch spec'd size is correct, if you use alternative fuels, you may want to consider a larger alternative to help seal better.

Personally, I'm going to try something a little bit more exotic: FEP encapsulated silicone in a -143 size. I'll abuse it going between D2 and HPR, which is what has cause my current leak, to see how well it holds up. I've had no issues with my FEP lined fuel line with either fuel currently and since it gets brittle when stretched, I'm doing a size between the Bosch spec and the groove spec. If you want something better for cold weather without risk, -141 or -142 should be fine. Viton from McMaster only goes down to -15 įF.
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Old February 20th, 2019, 15:13   #7182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Corpus View Post
How'd they fit?

Iíll need to find the pack, to see if I used them. I remember opening at least 2 sealed Bosch kits, for that o-ring, and I may have been just trying to complete kits. I may also have been buying stuff, simply to buy stuff.... I have a bad habit of doing that.

If youíre finding the o-ring size from a Bosch cut sheet, I wouldnít hesitate to use it. Even the Bosch o-rings were a slightly tight fit. Any sloppier, and you may be cutting it, as you install the head.

-Todd
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Old February 20th, 2019, 16:15   #7183
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I’ll be installing it off the car. I have done a few to know they can get snipped easily and I plan on lubing them and going slow. Thanks for the notes though.
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Old February 20th, 2019, 18:37   #7184
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I found the bag, and I never used any. The size is 65 x 2.5. They’re green and were adver as Viton.... don’t remember where I got them from.

If you want to try one, send me your address, and I’ll toss it in the mail.

-Todd
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Old February 20th, 2019, 19:58   #7185
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All good. I trust the size and source and have a spare Viton one here. Maybe Bosch went undersized due to the tight tolerances between the pump head and case?
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