stock dynos before and after dieselgate "fix" (increase!!)

Charlie; Thanks for sharing.

Yawiney said:

How much is the emissions system replacement going to cost?

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the way I understand is, replacements of emissions parts will be covered by the new warranty....they are required to replace emissions devices that will have trouble dealing with current tune @ ~60k miles...

The 2015's come with an 11 year 160,000 mi warranty on emissions and fuel system from "in service" date.

The dyno graph doesn't lie: whatever was done actually improved things. What's fascinating is not so much all the subjective impressions of how individual cars ran BEFORE, so much as all the arguments and tortured rationalizations that will occur henceforeward.....

I understand the dyno test results, but after test driving several phase 1 fixed DSG GSW's the last few days I feel they are not as potent as my unfixed 15 GSW DSG, don't know what it is but mine have always felt much more powerful, not disputing the results but its just my observation so far.

cane929 said:

I understand the dyno test results, but after test driving several phase 1 fixed DSG GSW's the last few days I feel they are not as potent as my unfixed 15 GSW DSG, don't know what it is but mine have always felt much more powerful, not disputing the results but its just my observation so far.

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The shift points are made to be at a lower more "diesel" rpms, and less​ of a Gasser rpm.
Most every diesel in the last 15 years have had the rpms lowered at the rpms you shift as engines have devoloped, resulting I better MPG. Cause the motor is making less noise, so e feel like they are accelerating slower, but simply not true.
Regularly shift at rpms that would be far too early for an older motor results in the best accelerating and best mpg. In heavy the trucking industry, it is refered to a "progressive shifting" and while partially load dependant, it also results in shift patterns very similar to the regular non-s mode that it doing now...early shifts, holding onto years, etc.
Yes...the TQ band and how you access it with the pedal was adjusted, but usually a lower RPM is the way to go with a diesel...simple less power lost in everything from ​friction to pumping fluids, and even air.

KERMA said:

for your viewing pleasure.
Same dyno, same car, obviously different days.
It seems to have GAINED power and torque after the dieselgate reflash!!!

before dieselgate update:
139 hp, 258 ft-lb

After dieselgate reflash:
146 hp, 271 ft-lb

net approx gain:
+7hp, +13ft-lb

these are NOT tuned files, 100% stock to stock comparo. everything about the car is 100% stock.
4500 ft altitude and SAE correction, sea level curve will be a slightly different shape.

Discuss.

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This is great news, though it is puzzling that the VW engineers back in 2013-2014 could not find this balance. I was told ~14% more DEF usage after the "EPA tune". Can you clarify...

Was this a vehicle that has been on the road for two years, purchased just before VW stopped selling them back in September 2015 ?

How many miles on it for the before dyno run, and for the after dyno run?

What I am getting at here is, was the before dyno testing done in the same week, same fuel in the tank, at 40k miles (broken in)?

cane929 said:

I understand the dyno test results, but after test driving several phase 1 fixed DSG GSW's the last few days I feel they are not as potent as my unfixed 15 GSW DSG, don't know what it is but mine have always felt much more powerful, not disputing the results but its just my observation so far.

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Our's (pre fix compared to post fix) is noticeably different. Not disputing dyno results but ours feels down on torque, not at tip in clutch engagement, it's actually better. Significantly down on torque, HP in 5th, 6th especially when car has more than 2 people in it. Very disappointed, ours is going back specifically due to poorer performance and uncertainty over phase 2 fix.

j

jcart said:

Our's (pre fix compared to post fix) is noticeably different. Not disputing dyno results but ours feels down on torque, not at tip in clutch engagement, it's actually better. Significantly down on torque, HP in 5th, 6th especially when car has more than 2 people in it. Very disappointed, ours is going back specifically due to poorer performance and uncertainty over phase 2 fix.

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Question please.

Going back?

Do the buy back?

Sell it to individual? Or other?

Tune the "FIX"?

Thanks

jcart said:

Our's (pre fix compared to post fix) is noticeably different. Not disputing dyno results but ours feels down on torque, not at tip in clutch engagement, it's actually better. Significantly down on torque, HP in 5th, 6th especially when car has more than 2 people in it. Very disappointed, ours is going back specifically due to poorer performance and uncertainty over phase 2 fix.
j

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So why not get it tuned and back to the way you want it?

It does seem odd that the car would suddenly become a dog when a couple passegers get in.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

(negative) Placebo affect?

Maybe a undetected re-gen?

I needed a "punch" once, in strange traffic. Only got approx 85% of what I expected. Never figured out WHY?

My 2015 GSW MT6 feels like it's lost power after the Phase 1 fix as well, both off the line and at freeway speeds.

keep in mind that most driving is at part throttle conditions, and dyno runs do not reflect anything except full throttle conditions. Doesn't say anything about how it drives.

Also it is very common in many diesel applications for a tuner to change fuel mapping to strongly encourage you to shift to a gear with lower rpms to save fuel and utilize the tq inherent to a diesel...
Most every company owned Diesel truck (where mpg is King) I have ever driven have had a "progressive" shift map programmed into the ecu where the fuel is cut at higher rpms to make you shift....
Since VW needed to keep the same mpg post fix, I bet they did a bit if this.
Fix... simply shift to matain a lower RPM.ypu might not FEEL like you are going as fast cause the engine is not screaming, but you are. The Honest test for this is the new DSG programming where it tries to keep the lower rpms longer by holding on to gears with lower rpms, and it shifts sooner.
Me, I let the dsg do it thing...and it has done great. The performance and mpg speaks for itself IMO.
For a heavy truck, when you see the performance drop off as you get higher rpms, it is saying SHIFT.
MAYBE you need to drive it at lower rpms than you were. Yes, as engine tech changes, so do driving methods.

I don't know.... from Kermas dynos I wouldn't say the new software is cutting fuel up top. It's actually adding fuel. I bet it has a lot to do with the drive by wire calibration. Pull the egg out from behind the pedal and I bet they scoot just as well as the mk6's.

ZippyNH said:

Also it is very common in many diesel applications for a tuner to change fuel mapping to strongly encourage you to shift to a gear with lower rpms to save fuel and utilize the tq inherent to a diesel...

.....snip....

Since VW needed to keep the same mpg post fix, I bet they did a bit if this.


Fix... simply shift to maintain a lower RPM.ypu might not FEEL like you are going as fast cause the engine is not screaming, but you are.

The Honest test for this is the new DSG programming where it tries to keep the lower rpms longer by holding on to gears with lower rpms, and it shifts sooner.


Me, I let the dsg do its' thing...and it has done great. The performance and mpg speaks for itself IMO.



MAYBE you need to drive it at lower rpms than you were. Yes, as engine tech changes, so do driving methods.

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I drive this way most of the time.

I believe you are spot on, regarding the FIX (the first half)

Getting my '15 tuned today. I think it's a dog off the line. Once it gets rolling it's fine, but it clearly is holding back fuel at tip in.

I really want to but am hesitant so early on. Theres a Malone Tuning tuner 30mins from house so its soooooo tempting. Once I go down that path...when is enough going to be enough??

Mwahahahah!!

turbobrick240 said:

Pull the egg out from behind the pedal and I bet they scoot just as well as the mk6's.

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essentially this is correct in principle if not 100% technically accurate.

If you pay attention to the older cars, there is frequently a bit of smoke at tip-in. Best I can determine, these new cars are held back at tip-in to avoid excess emissions under that transient condition. But it is not necessarily the pedal holding it back, but the parallel torque path. This is something that Other tuners miss and it manifests as a strong initial response followed by an immediate dramatic pullback within 1/2 second. Pay attention to the published dynos. If they are not lies (like a cartoon), you may see a sharp small/large spike at the torque peak shortly after tip-in, followed by a dip, This indicates a somewhat simplistic or unsophisticated approach to tuning that is typical of "euro" supplied files that are resold from a European source. This is one example where "euro" should not have any cache or appeal. The fix is only found after many hours of trial and error and testing on a Bin 5 ULEV North American spec car. Euro 5/6 do NOT have the same provisions and were a totally different development path. "Euro" is not "better" in this case. They are different cars.

I always say that Dynos are useful as a comparison tool, for a very limited situation that does not represent typical driving conditions in the real world. A dyno is, well, representative of what it does on the dyno. Period. Under full throttle conditions under some uniform, artificial load. Won't tell you how it drives, unless maybe you are drag racing. Most street driving (95%+) is done under part throttle conditions! This is what gives the "feel" and IMO that's what is most important. Also one of the more difficult things to convey, because it ain't "dyno numbers" or anything that can be easily represented by "hard numbers". Sadly, it seems that maintaining the same "feel" was not one of the EPA's conditions that VW had to meet. Only fuel economy and full power had to remain the same, apparently. ("no loss" of power or fuel economy) That left some wiggle room in the responsiveness.

I have to say that the manual 2015 GSW I drive sure seemed to drive better and more responsive after the "fix" but some of the DSG guys are not expressing the same sentiment. Of course a good tune helps.

kevkor2002 said:

I really want to but am hesitant so early on. There's a Malone Tuning tuner 30mins from house so its soooooo tempting.

Once I go down that path...when is enough going to be enough??

Mwahahahah!!

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Please tell me if I am mistaken.

When a "tune" is done after the phase one of the two part fix is done, the 162,000 miles, 11 year warranty is void???

Naturally, each to his own desires.

Regarding the warranty, I personally value it at way more than the run of the mill CPO(s) ~~ and the best part is, it is transferable to the next owners(s)

Good luck on your decision.

Charlie, are you saying that the EA288 in the EU has different hardware than the NA model?

I'm indifferent to the warranty. If I change my mind about it I can always have it reflashed to stock before taking it to the dealer, not that they'd necessarily notice.

And with this car I think a tune only will be enough. I'm not up for making hardware changes.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

.....snip....


I'm indifferent to the warranty. If I change my mind about it I can always have it reflashed to stock before taking it to the dealer, not that they'd necessarily notice.

And with this car I think a tune only will be enough. I'm not up for making hardware changes.

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May I ask a question please?

For the average joe... What might be the cost of a re-flash to return it to "stock"?

Probably depends on the tuner, and if these cars can be flashed with a loader. Don't know the answer to that.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

Probably depends on the tuner, and if these cars can be flashed with a loader. Don't know the answer to that.

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Thx

The tools used by all of the big north american diesel tuners are the same. Your flash counter will change if flashing in any way other than bench flashing, which can void your warranty and VW will know that something is up. There's the "we haven't had any problems with this you'll be fine" approach, and then there's the "VW will know the car has been modified and might void your warranty approach"

I'd rather say the latter and be honest.

Owain@malonetuning said:

The tools used by all of the big north american diesel tuners are the same. Your flash counter will change if flashing in any way other than bench flashing, which can void your warranty and VW will know that something is up. There's the "we haven't had any problems with this you'll be fine" approach, and then there's the "VW will know the car has been modified and might void your warranty approach"

I'd rather say the latter and be honest.

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Either could be true, so it's not a matter of honesty as much as it is optimism. Since I don't intend to bring my car back for the second phase of the fix I'm not concerned.

Owain@malonetuning said:

The tools used by all of the big north american diesel tuners are the same. Your flash counter will change if flashing in any way other than bench flashing, which can void your warranty and VW will know that something is up. There's the "we haven't had any problems with this you'll be fine" approach, and then there's the "VW will know the car has been modified and might void your warranty approach"

I'd rather say the latter and be honest.

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Can only speaking for me.

Fully understanding the need for speed, Torque MPG etc., etc.

This Irishman is taking the fix, for better or worse. YIKES

Newbie question here: Is Malone able to bench flash ECUs or does it have to go through a dealer?

2nd question: What does it cost to return an ECU to stock using the bench process?

Owain@malonetuning said:

The tools used by all of the big north american diesel tuners are the same. Your flash counter will change if flashing in any way other than bench flashing, which can void your warranty and VW will know that something is up. There's the "we haven't had any problems with this you'll be fine" approach, and then there's the "VW will know the car has been modified and might void your warranty approach"

I'd rather say the latter and be honest.

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IndigoBlueWagon said:

... I don't intend to bring my car back for the second phase of the fix I'm not concerned.

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Can you skip part II?
I also have a new 2015 and thought it was pretty clear when buying the car I was also agreeing to bring it back for part II of the fix, and I presume receive a new emissions sticker at that point.
Not sure what leverage VW or anyone has to require it, perhaps cancel vehicle registration with the state?

My plan is wait for part II, then avoid the dealer thereafter. In the meantime if any warranty issues with car crossing fingers they present soon and can be handled before part II of fix.

Grigg