Oil and Air Filter Wars - Enter At Your Own risk!

Originally posted by Pressurized:


Unknowing and hyper journalists have assigned "laminar flow" as the holy grail of aerodynamics since WWII. The reality is that it just ain't so for automobiles.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yep, them and about everyone else that works with automotive realted items . Laminar is so widely used now that it has become old hat. however, i have been told that not much on this planet can be even be called Laminar in which case makes me wonder, does the word actually exsist or is it only a figment of our imagination. i can show you hundreds of hits from google that refer to Laminar exactly how it was used in what we are discussing here. so you can tel me i am wrong mut then you should spend endless years trying to change the rest of the world . as for what most people know Laminar as is how Laminar has been explained. infact, besides you, Brainless, Pete (which probably has no idea what it actually is) and the guy that told me it does not exsist on this planet, everyone else i have talked to asked or heard the word Laminar used is exactly as i explained. you better get to work and change the world

Pressurized, Garrett is trying to say that after the air passes through the screens in the MAF that the airflow becomes Laminar...

What we have been trying to explain to him is that the screen break up the airflow into a more uniform cross sectional flow by disrupting any boundry layers and velocity differences in the intake tube. The screens can hardly be defined as creating a laminar air profile after passing through the MAF acreens.

The screens simply allow for a uniform sampling of air flow through the MAF body. The bottom line is the screens break up anything that can remotely resemble laminar flow.

DB

Pete, what i am trying to say is that most people know this as Laminar flow. do a search on the internet and see what you find. and as for you razzing me about it at the TDI fest this shows you intelligence level right there. notice that all you threw at me, out loud and in front off all, i waited till you where alone and discussed with you. yer a real smert won der Pete

and Brainless, explain this then

Originally posted by Boundless:
There is no such thing as rich or lean with a diesel.

It's all about fuel. Diesels have to have excess air to maximize combustion eficiency. If you're getting smoke, you are overfuelling or not getting enough boost. There is no stochiometric balance with a diesel like in a gasser.

Gassers throttle air flow and add a comensurate amount of fuel to that air flow to achieve stochiometric balance (or thereabouts). Diesels are wide open air all the time and fuel is added for the amount of power you want. There is no control over rich or lean.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yep, yer bout smart as Pete

Originally posted by garrettp:
Pete, what i am trying to say is that most people know this as Laminar flow. do a search on the internet and see what you find. and as for you razzing me about it at the TDI fest this shows you intelligence level right there. notice that all you threw at me, out loud and in front off all, i waited till you where alone and discussed with you. yer a real smert won der Pete

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Garrett thats funny I have not been to any of the TDI fests, get your facts straight.

As far as Laminar airflow you need to do a bit more reading before you can begin to understand the complexities of this subject.

Airflow through screens is not laminar why? It's not following a surface, it's broken up into disrupted airfolw patterns accross a cross sectional area etc, the screens prevent boudrys from forming, the intake does not allow sufficient distance for these patterns to develope etc...

Your confusing uniform cross sectional velocity with boundry layers.

DB

L######??? I've been a professional ###odynamic engineer for over 16 years and can say that l###### f### is very infrequent anywhere on or inside a moving ground vehicle. Maybe for a short distance after the ###cleaner. Maybe in a few square inches of surface area on the leading edge of the hood or in some cases the ### intake. Could happen in the #C system ducting - maybe.

Don't confuse attached turbulent f### for l###### f###. L###### f### happens in slow speed viscous f###s and on wings of very smooth and specially designed ###foils on sailplanes and P51 Mustangs (###speeds usually over our lowly 70 mph and not operating in nasty turbulent ground conditions).

Unknowing and hyper journalists have assigned "l###### f###" as the holy grail of ###odynamics since WWII. The reality is that it just ain't so for automobiles.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There are folks around here that think that the f### through the induction path is l######.

I don't think there is a section long enough and straight enough to allow true l###### to fully set up.

And then there is the velocity profile flattener in front of the MAF to consider.
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yep, them and about everyone else that works with automotive realted items . L###### is so widely used now that it has become old hat. however, i have been told that not much on this planet can be even be called L###### in which case makes me wonder, does the word actually exsist or is it only a figment of our imagination. i can show you hundreds of hits from google that refer to L###### exactly how it was used in what we are discussing here. so you can tel me i am wrong mut then you should spend endless years trying to change the rest of the world . as for what most people know L###### as is how L###### has been explained. infact, besides you, Brainless, Pete (which probably has no idea what it actually is) and the guy that told me it does not exsist on this planet, everyone else i have talked to asked or heard the word L###### used is exactly as i explained. you better get to work and change the world
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Pressurized, Garrett is trying to say that after the ### passes through the screens in the MAF that the ###### becomes L######...

What we have been trying to explain to him is that the screen break up the ###### into a more uniform cross sectional f### by disrupting any boundry layers and velocity differences in the intake tube. The screens can hardly be defined as creating a l###### ### profile after passing through the MAF acreens.

The screens simply allow for a uniform sampling of ### f### through the MAF body. The bottom line is the screens break up anything that can remotely resemble l###### f###.
________________________________________________

See how much nicer we can talk to one another if all those nasty words are left out!

Laminar and Boundry layers are such beautiful words

DB

Oh garrett,

Please do tell!!!!

Originally posted by garrettp:


and Brainless, explain this then

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Boundless:
There is no such thing as rich or lean with a diesel.

It's all about fuel. Diesels have to have excess air to maximize combustion eficiency. If you're getting smoke, you are overfuelling or not getting enough boost. There is no stochiometric balance with a diesel like in a gasser.

Gassers throttle air flow and add a comensurate amount of fuel to that air flow to achieve stochiometric balance (or thereabouts). Diesels are wide open air all the time and fuel is added for the amount of power you want. There is no control over rich or lean.

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">yep, yer bout smart as Pete

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Please explain what is wrong with my quote.

Simple, you are wrong, as usual, and ten wrongs don't make a right!

Gym socks will rough up the boundry layer through the MAF. Baby wipes will smooth it out, especially if you get the ones with Aloe.

........aren't you concerned about the dreaded athletes foot fungus growing in your turbocompressor, or do you dust it everyday with Micatin to kill the molds?

Skypup, you may want to check with Ric on that one. he has had athletes fungus MAF before and had to clean it. i think he used toe nail clippings to scrape it off.

funny thing is, Boundless is serious. i guess lean and rich only apply to Laminar fluids, kinda like Pete and Boundy, they are both Laminar fellows just looking to chase Rene and I off of the TDI club forums by ruining air filters. you two kill me keep up the good work, one day you will accomplish your feat (or your feet, whatever). as for Laminar, starting asking people what it means and begin correcting the entire world please

Garretp,
Lean and rich no only applies Laminar fluids but to pop artists (i.e. Britney Spears).

What happens when you lose? Do you get a set good genes?

Originally posted by garrettp:

funny thing is, Boundless is serious. i guess lean and rich only apply to Laminar fluids,

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">From the Diesel Engine Reference Book, 2nd ed, published by SAE:

Although diesel engines never intentionally run with the chemically correct, or stoichiometric, amount of air, it is useful to compare the actual fuel to air ratio to the stoiciometric amount as a measure of air utilization.

...

Diesel engine air utilization is generally limites to phi < 0.7. HIgher equivalence ratios cause excessive smoke emissions.

So, diesels are never "rich". They always run "lean". If there's smoke, it doesn't mean that the engine is running rich, it means that it's not lean enough. Rich and lean refer to opposite ends of stoichiometric. Diesels are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS on the lean side, unless there is a problem with the engine. So... using the terms rich and lean don't really make sense. That's why the literature uses equivalence ratio, rather than "rich" and "lean".


as for Laminar, starting asking people what it means and begin correcting the entire world please

Oh, yeah, that's right, you like to redefine words to make them mean whatever you and other people want. I guess then you could use "rich" and "lean", because you can just change what they really mean.

C'mon garrett. I've been just an observer in this whole "laminar" flow argument, but this is too much. Your argument now is that the meaning of words can change as long as enough people think that they mean something else? In my world, you call those people ignorant, you don't change the dictionary (or in this case, the fluids textbook), to make the meaning fit the belief.

Personal issues aside, you're arguing with a pilot and two engineers, both with extensive aerodynamic and fluids experience. And you're using websites as a reference to support your views. Don't you see something wrong with this?

-davin

Rich <> Lean

It's all relative...
...Albert Einstein

There once was a woman named Brite
Whose speed was faster than Light.
She went out one day,
In her 'relative' way,
And returned the previous Night.

rich men don't have lean bank accounts either.....

Best air filter: Piper Cross.

Best oil: Amsoil Series 3000.

If you don't use these products, you're an ignorant ape. And your camshaft is doomed.

I wouldn't spoon that "Delvac 1" stew into a lawn mower I liked.

-mickey

Yes Sir!

Welcome back to the real world, mickey!

I know nothing of the difference between Laminar and Turbulent airflows in the science of fluid dynamics. However, I'm also pretty sure that most automotive journalists don't either.

So you're a journalist interviewing a PhD, and he's trying to explain the subtle differences between all of these airflows and how it relates to car design, and you're thinking about how you'd love to take that hot girl from accounting out for a drive in the sweet Porsche in the wind tunnel.

You get back to the office and say, "Now, let's see, there's turbulent, but what was that other one? Oh yeah, smooth. No, that doesn't sound technical enough, wasn't Laminar the absence of turbulence, that's the same as smooth, right? I'll write that. Hmm, wonder if that girl from accounting is seeing anyone...."

However, I agree that a tube sock dipped in 100% denatured alcohol and smeared with a thick layer of peanut butter is the best way to laminaboundulent the air flow through the electrostatic air filter.

Bookerdog,
Actually, the tube sock should be dipped in a Ted Drews Concrete, the air box filled with Toasted Ravs' and a Imo's pizza cookin' on the Turbo. I would power test this down Highway Farty.

[ June 13, 2002, 14:50: Message edited by: jjvincent ]

Now you claim to know more than a practicing aerodynamic engineer of sixteen years, and insult him to boot, Garrett.

Nice.

Hey Klink, I could tell you I'm god with a little g, does that mean you will pray to Commander valois from now on? Too funny, you guys believe everything that is told to you, what are you Canadians? I posted about 20 links , dictionary definitions, one from a company that manufactures and deals exclusively with equipment that is provided to the automotive industry specifically for calibrating Mass Airflow sensors, and they refer to it as laminar airflow. I guess they have no idea *** they are doing huh? Now on the lighter side, and for something completely different,

My able assistant boundless, I mean beaker will demonstrate how to tell if a dog has a temperature:

Afterwards he informs the dogs owners that the animal will be fine.

Pete Pinhead was heard to comment" I am so proud of Boundy, he has lived up to his pointential!"

need a reason to switch to foam?

Here are two:

Wonder if her intake is clogged thou?

while you guys are at it, call Websters and tell them they need to update "Laminar" to include the words "air flow" or "fluid texts"

3 entries found for laminar.

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lam·i·na Pronunciation Key (lm-n)
n. pl. lam·i·nae (-n) or lam·i·nas
A thin plate, sheet, or layer.
Botany. The expanded area of a leaf or petal; a blade.
A thin layer of bone, membrane, or other tissue.
Zoology. A thin scalelike or platelike structure, as one of the thin layers of sensitive vascular tissue in the hoof of a horse.
Geology. A narrow bed of rock.

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[Latin lmina.]
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lami·nar or lami·nal adj.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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laminar

\Lam"i*nar\, Laminal \Lam"i*nal\, a. [Cf. F. laminaire. See Lamina] In, or consisting of, thin plates or layers; having the form of a thin plate or lamina.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

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laminar

laminar: 1. Arranged in plates or laminae.

Synonym: laminated.

2. Relating to any lamina.

(05 Mar 2000)

Source: On-line Medical Dictionary, © 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Davin, as with everything, people are used to the terms mention here with in. Rich and Lean and Laminar. i am not changing anyhting to suit my purpose. talk to anyone that i guess knows nothing (us ignorants) and they will use the terms in the same manner. this of course covers most of the population but those super intelligent pilots (aka GOD's) and of course, the engineers that think they are higher then the rest (not to offend any engineer that does not feel this way). you can say i am arguing to soot[sic] my point but to us ignorant types, these are the words we use. sorry to offend those that are mightier then though. i am not only using websights, automotive magizines, and dictionary's to prove my point but that of the average person and even the people that work on diesel trucks or cars or machanics in general. i guess the whole world is wrong, which is my point. so now, you the pilot and the two engineers can go change the world for the better, sure change the forums (as you seem to be trying endlessly) but for God's sake (and i don't mean the Pilot) change the rest of the world so we can all be correct and live happy in a laminar world.

Colonel Klink, which one are you talking about

This is how it is intended..

Originally posted by garrettp:
while you guys are at it, call Websters and tell them they need to update "Laminar" to include the words "air flow" or "fluid texts"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
3 entries found for laminar.

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lam·i·na Pronunciation Key (lm-n)
n. pl. lam·i·nae (-n) or lam·i·nas
A thin plate, sheet, or layer.
Botany. The expanded area of a leaf or petal; a blade.
A thin layer of bone, membrane, or other tissue.
Zoology. A thin scalelike or platelike structure, as one of the thin layers of sensitive vascular tissue in the hoof of a horse.
Geology. A narrow bed of rock.

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[Latin lmina.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
lami·nar or lami·nal adj.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

laminar

\Lam"i*nar\, Laminal \Lam"i*nal\, a. [Cf. F. laminaire. See Lamina] In, or consisting of, thin plates or layers; having the form of a thin plate or lamina.
Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

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laminar

laminar: 1. Arranged in plates or laminae.

Synonym: laminated.

2. Relating to any lamina.

(05 Mar 2000)

Source: On-line Medical Dictionary, © 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Davin, as with everything, people are used to the terms mention here with in. Rich and Lean and Laminar. i am not changing anyhting to suit my purpose. talk to anyone that i guess knows nothing (us ignorants) and they will use the terms in the same manner. this of course covers most of the population but those super intelligent pilots (aka GOD's) and of course, the engineers that think they are higher then the rest (not to offend any engineer that does not feel this way). you can say i am arguing to soot[sic] my point but to us ignorant types, these are the words we use. sorry to offend those that are mightier then though. i am not only using websights, automotive magizines, and dictionary's to prove my point but that of the average person and even the people that work on diesel trucks or cars or machanics in general. i guess the whole world is wrong, which is my point. so now, you the pilot and the two engineers can go change the world for the better, sure change the forums (as you seem to be trying endlessly) but for God's sake (and i don't mean the Pilot) change the rest of the world so we can all be correct and live happy in a laminar world.

Colonel Klink, which one are you talking about

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and how it actually is starting to sound..

while you guys are smurfily at it, call Websters and tell them they need to update 'Laminar' to include the words 'air flow' or 'fluid texts' quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 entries found for laminar. Smurfilicious! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lam·i·na Pronunciation Key (lm-n) n. Smurfy, isn't it? pl. Smurfilicious! lam·i·nae (-n) or lam·i·nas A thin plate, sheet, or layer. SMURFY! Botany. SMURFY! The expanded area of a leaf or petal; a blade. How smurfy! A thin layer of bone, membrane, or other tissue. Smurfy, isn't it? Zoology. Smurfy, isn't it? A thin scalelike or platelike structure, as one of the thin layers of sensitive vascular tissue in the hoof of a horse. How smurfy! Geology. How smurfy! A narrow bed of rock. Smurfy, isn't it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Latin lmina. SMURFY!] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lami·nar or lami·nal adj. Smurfilicious! Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Smurfy, isn't it? Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. Smurfilicious! All rights reserved. SMURFY! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- laminar \Lam'i*nar\, Laminal \Lam'i*nal\, a. How smurfy! [Cf. SMURFY! F. SMURFY! laminaire. How smurfy! See Lamina] In, or consisting of, thin plates or layers; having the form of a thin plate or lamina. SMURFY! Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. How smurfy! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- laminar laminar: 1. How smurfy! Arranged in plates or laminae. How smurfy! Synonym: laminated. Smurfy, isn't it? 2. SMURFY! Relating to any lamina. How smurfy! (05 Mar 2000) Source: On-line Medical Dictionary, © 1997-98 Academic Medical Publishing & CancerWEB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Davin, as with everything, people are smurfily used to the terms mention here with in. How smurfy! Rich and Lean and Laminar. Smurfy, isn't it? i am not changing anyhting to suit my smurfypurpose. Smurfy, isn't it? talk to anyone that i guess knows nothing (us ignorants) and they will use the terms in the same manner. How smurfy! this smurfy of course covers most of the population but those super intelligent pilots (aka GOD's) and of course, the engineers that think they are smurfily higher then the rest (not to offend any engineer that does not feel this smurfy way). How smurfy! you can say i am arguing to soot[sic] my smurfypoint but to us ignorant types, these are smurfily the words we use. Smurfilicious! sorry to offend those that are smurfily mightier then though. Smurfy, isn't it? i am not only using websights, automotive magizines, and dictionary's to prove my smurfypoint but that of the average person and even the people that work on diesel trucks or cars or machanics in general. How smurfy! i guess the whole world is smurfily wrong, which is smurfily my smurfypoint. Smurfy, isn't it? so now, you the pilot and the two engineers can go change the world for the better, sure change the forums (as you seem to be trying endlessly) but for God's sake (and i don't mean the Pilot) change the rest of the world so we can all be correct and live happy in a laminar world. SMURFY! Colonel Klink, which one are smurfily you talking about

If you strap a 4'X8' sheet of plywood wrapped with Reynolds Wrap on top of your car, I wonder at what speed you would achieve laminate flow and what would the Reynolds number be?

[ June 13, 2002, 17:15: Message edited by: jjvincent ]

Originally posted by jjvincent:
If you strap a 4'X8' sheet of plywood wrapped with Reynolds Wrap on top of your car, I wonder at what speed you would achieve laminate flow and what would the Reynolds number be?

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<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Easy!! 2.50 (the cost of the Reynolds wrap )

DB