Timing Belt puzzle--non-start

Evening everyone,

This is my first time posting because, as I'm sure you can believe, this community and its awesome resources have helped me resuscitate my 2003 Golf from something two steps from the grave to... Well, a few more steps from the grave. It's got 315,000 on the body, and about 120,000 on the engine. There's things that need work, but the body's in great shape and it still gets close to 50mpg on the highway, so...

I am trying my best to wrap up my first solo timing belt job, but the damn thing won't start. Tonight I went through the process:

1. Put the camshaft lobes up in first position, loosen the tensioner, pop the cam sprocket off, put the IP pin in, rotate the crankshaft until it's at TDC at the mark (this is a manual, so it's the notch, not the little circle thingy), lock that down.

2. Put the cam sprocket back on, loosen the IP bolts, tighten the tensioner, check the crankshaft, still good, torque down the camshaft bolt, tighten the IP bolts, remove all the locks.

3. Crank through 2 full camshaft rotations by hand, all good normal compression, bump the engine a few times, try to start up. I get no goods; I hear a deeper thumping than I'm used to hearing, or maybe that's just the normal compression, but usually it's covered up by the higher-pitched combustion so I never notice it as such.

Here's the kicker: I get out of the car, take the valve cover back off, put it lobes up, and I can still insert the IP pin and the flywheel notch is TDC. So... What am I missing here?

Additional considerations:

-I'm not entirely sure that the crankshaft didn't slip a tooth or two while I was torquing down the camshaft bolt, but the fact that after I tried starting the car, they're aligned, seems... Odd.

-I have the car up on ramps. Can the angle produce this non-start?

-I've been working on it for about a month, as it also needed MAF/turbo vacuum line troubleshooting, so it hasn't started in that long. I've tried sitting there turning the key on and off to prime the pump, in case that's a problem...?

-I don't have the harmonic balancer back on yet, nor the serpentine belt

-I don't have the air system fully put back together when I tried this start--so, like, the pipe going from the EGR to the intercooler is still off.

Last but not least, if I have to throw up my hands in despair, is there anybody in Cleveland I can take this to? The closest TDI specialized mechanic I know of is in Columbus, most of the folks around here, in the words of my neighborhood garage, "Politely say thanks but no thanks to diesels." Literally.



Thanks in advance to any help!!

Well, at least they are honest. I'm almost the same way with gassers, but I don't turn away people, I let them make their own decision.

Check that the hole for the pin in the pump is straight up in relation to the pump. Here is a link to a post showing where the hole is. http://http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1972390

Don't forget to remove vac pump and check the slot in the cam is bang in line with the head. Also did you disconnect the fuel lines? If so you'll need to bleed the air out.

Loosen the hard lines on the injectors a bit then crank till fuel comes through.

It could be that the injection timing is quite retarded too making it a hard starter, if you rule out everything else I'd try advancing it a tiny bit, you'll need to set it properly with vagcom after anyway.

Thanks guys, these are good thoughts--I'm aware that there's more than one hole that the injection pump pin can go into, and I've been trying to make sure it's firmly in line with the squarish knob on the pump itself, but I'll check that.

And I'll take the vacuum pump back off, you're right... Was hoping to avoid it, ha.

There's only ONE hole to pin the IP. When you don't hit it people refer to there being a "dummy hole," but it's really not a hole per se, it's just the hub flange(?). I use a mirror to check that the hole is in fact there, then I stick the pin in and look again with the mirror: usually the pin should insert quite a ways in in which case there's little mistaking that you've got it.

I too wasn't sure from reading what you wrote that you have the cam itself properly indexed. Kind of sounds like you did.

As long as you are positive there's no interference happening then the engine should at least attempt to chug. Are you getting fuel? How fast is it cranking (RPMs)?

If you have the front of the car on ramps and you took the fuel lines loose from the filter or the pump, fuel will siphon back to the tank. Try priming the pump at the return line with a Mighty Vac or similar. The injection pump will not suck fuel from the tank if any air has been introduced into the lines. Lowering the front of the car will help in this endeavor also.
After you get fuel flowing to the IP, crack two injectors lines, crank 'til fuel spurts, tighten lines, loosen the other two, crank 'til they spurt, then tighten them.
If you got the timing parts right it should fire.

KCTDI said:

If you have the front of the car on ramps and you took the fuel lines loose from the filter or the pump, fuel will siphon back to the tank. Try priming the pump at the return line with a Mighty Vac or similar. The injection pump will not suck fuel from the tank if any air has been introduced into the lines. Lowering the front of the car will help in this endeavor also.
After you get fuel flowing to the IP, crack two injectors lines, crank 'til fuel spurts, tighten lines, loosen the other two, crank 'til they spurt, then tighten them.
If you got the timing parts right it should fire.

Click to expand...

^This. Sounds like you arent getting fuel from it sitting in limbo for over a month.

I'm feeling that possibility regarding the fuel lines--they were totally disconnected with plenty of opportunity for air to get in there for a good long while (didn't have the right size dowel to plug them properly).

I'll buy a vacuum pump and in the meantime double-check the timing, and let you guys know what happens...

I bought my Mity vac from autozone for less than $40.00

Just to make sure... Are you working on a TDI or a gasser?

whitedog said:

Just to make sure... Are you working on a TDI or a gasser?

Click to expand...

Got caught on that once already.

whitedog said:

Just to make sure... Are you working on a TDI or a gasser?

Click to expand...

the body's in great shape and it still gets close to 50mpg on the highway

I'm thinking that that puts it firmly in the TDI camp

I had that issue on my first timing belt job.
Turns out you have to center the pump pulley on the pump.
Put the pin in the pump at tdc and check that it's centered in the slot.
You must have room for adjustment and it needs to be in the zone to work.

Fixed! Kinda.

Hey everybody,

Thanks for the replies. A brief update:

-Primed the fuel lines, no goods.

-Popped the vacuum pump back off, I'm bang at TDC, notch right where it should be on the flywheel

-So I loosen the IP bolts and retard the timing as far as it will go, thinking I'll work my way counterclockwise until it starts, and it starts on the first go! Success!

-Until I see what looks to be an egregious oil leak coming from the new ****ing camshaft seal I installed. GRAAARGH


So humor me, pleeease. It's not one of the Teflon seals, it's an old style with the round springs. I popped the old one out, made sure I covered the keyway with electrical tape, slid it on... So I'm wondering, is there any possibility that I don't have to pull that cam sprocket back off? Like that the seal is just expanding or something and if I start the car back up it'll magically be fine?

...A guy can dream.

Cheers

Oh and it's most definitely a diesel! Haha.

LOL. My question wasn't really for you. It was kind of an inside joke for Jarhead. We had recently tried helping a guy and after a couple of days of back and forth we finally found out it wasn't a TDI.

whitedog said:

LOL. My question wasn't really for you. It was kind of an inside joke for Jarhead. We had recently tried helping a guy and after a couple of days of back and forth we finally found out it wasn't a TDI.

Click to expand...

OK, yeah, I seem to recall that thread.

I got it firing again guys, and better than before! Thanks for your help. It was a combination of factors, mainly the injection pump not being perfectly aligned. Woop Woop!

Mapachurro said:

I got it firing again guys, and better than before! Thanks for your help. It was a combination of factors, mainly the injection pump not being perfectly aligned. Woop Woop!

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That doesn't really make sense. You said you could reinsert the injection pump pin after rotating the engine.

mapachurro said:

Here's the kicker: I get out of the car, take the valve cover back off, put it lobes up, and I can still insert the IP pin and the flywheel notch is TDC. So... What am I missing here?

Click to expand...

You most certainly must have had the injection pump perfectly aligned, but it still wasn't starting. So what fixed it?

Brett

sounds like he loosened the sprocket bolts on the IP and guessed the timing first try now just need VCDS to dial it in. Guess it wouldn't fire with the IP timing set at TDC.

as for your oil leak, I've never seen a seal fix itself. when it leaks, it just leaks and leaks. those seals with the 'installation tool' scare me to death and I hate doing them. I once had to pull the trans again after a rear main seal install went badly LOL

Reasonable guess, but do we know that for sure? Or, does anyone in the future searching for information and finding this thread know that? No. If you take from the forum, you give back. Simple. So post the details on the solution. It's not that hard.

The oil leak is prime example of leaving the forum hanging. I noticed that when I re-read his initial post. We can only assume it's still leaking oil.

Brett

The issue with the seals is seating them properly.
There is a spot worn in the cam shaft and if you don't hit it right it will leak.
If there is part of the seal sticking out you might be able to get a pry bar on it to seat it the rest of the way.
Otherwise, you must pull the pulley.

Hey,

Sorry sorry sorry for leaving everybody hanging.

Let's see. I did not have the IP correctly placed the first time. I loosened the bolts, and slipped the pin through the outer slot and into what I thought was the hole, but was, as I think was mentioned earlier, that flange or whatever that noobs like myself can, at times, mistake for the correct location. So eventually I loosened it up, moved it almost all the way the other direction as I explained earlier, and then I was able to properly seat the IP pin, so that it slid in all the way, instead of just the inch or so it was going in at first.

So. Once I had the IP pin placed, I replaced the seal with a new one (and oh yeah, that bastard kept leaking. I think the one I got with my kit was sub-par quality), and just was really careful to keep the flywheel on point, as well as the camshaft TDC and locked in. In other words, the IP wasn't correctly placed the first time around, and I probably just needed to be more precise with the flywheel and, like was said earlier, making sure the camshaft was 'bang on' TDC.

Also, the locking plate for the camshaft is cheap enough to just get (or make) one and use it.
Eye-balling is not good enough for something that has so tight a tolerance.
My mechanic ruined my previous engine with the 'mark and pray' technique!

Mapachurro said:

Let's see. I did not have the IP correctly placed the first time. I loosened the bolts, and slipped the pin through the outer slot and into what I thought was the hole, but was, as I think was mentioned earlier, that flange or whatever that noobs like myself can, at times, mistake for the correct location. So eventually I loosened it up, moved it almost all the way the other direction as I explained earlier, and then I was able to properly seat the IP pin, so that it slid in all the way, instead of just the inch or so it was going in at first.

Click to expand...

Thank you. That makes a lot more sense. Get yourself a mirror and look down the pin slot before inserting the pin. You can easily see the alignment hole so you know what you're dealing with when you go to insert the pin. You can easily tell whether you need to turn the pump a little one way or another to get it to slide all the way in.

Brett