VNT 17/22 or GT1756?? for ALH.

Diesel Mania_26

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
Acton, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf, 03 Jetta Wagon, 75 Westy (undergoing TDI conversion)
Looking for modest power gains for an ALH.

Rebuilt engine with new cylinder head and PP520 injectors and removed egr and egr piping etc. straight pipe... clutch has been done as well.

is there an advantage with one over the other?

I believe the 17/22 is pretty much a bolt in system - what is the GT1756 like??

longevity / reliability?

cheers.
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
For modest power gains, the 17/22 will be easier and cheaper.
The advantage of the 1756 happens somewhere past 180 whp.
 

Diesel Mania_26

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
Acton, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf, 03 Jetta Wagon, 75 Westy (undergoing TDI conversion)
I have been looking ta some of the Dark Side Developments stuff as well..

tempted to go with one of his kits...

This will still be my daily driver of course.

What are the power gains for a 17/22 vs. one of the custom kits with a 1756 on it?
worth it?
cool factor?
 

Curious Chris

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 11, 2001
Location
Pineview GA
TDI
Jetta Wagon 2003 RIP Rockford IL
pp520's + 17/22+ FMIC+ 3Bar MAP+ RC4 = 150 hp 250 ft-lb torque. If you want 180 hp you can put in PP764's and a 11mm pump.

The FMIC gives you full power for longer. Stock IC will heat soak in about 8 seconds.

Yes if you are wanting to break through the 200hp you want a bigger turbo. Of course the stock differential will not like it; the rivets on my spider gear were yielding when Matt put in the Wave LSD.
 

Diesel Mania_26

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
Acton, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf, 03 Jetta Wagon, 75 Westy (undergoing TDI conversion)
pp520's + 17/22+ FMIC+ 3Bar MAP+ RC4 = 150 hp 250 ft-lb torque. If you want 180 hp you can put in PP764's and a 11mm pump.

The FMIC gives you full power for longer. Stock IC will heat soak in about 8 seconds.

Yes if you are wanting to break through the 200hp you want a bigger turbo. Of course the stock differential will not like it; the rivets on my spider gear were yielding when Matt put in the Wave LSD.
Cool thx.
I am planning on upgrading to a larger aluminum side mount IC as well as larger and better plumbing of course.

I was wondering about the stock differential... I suppose a Limited Slip would be recommended?
 

KERMA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
here
TDI
99 beetle and 04 jetta
17/1722/S7 install in a weekend, tune, done. Hassle free, drives great for years. Easy to troubleshoot and fix if necessary. Up to 2x stock HP and torque in less than a single weekend.

The GTB turbos may be a bit more sketchy for the casual backyard guy. Some of these forum threads cars are still a "work in progress" after months and even years of fiddling. Is there any benefit in an ALH with stock internals and moderate fueling? (up to R520 and stock IP ~180 ish whp) Probably not enough to make it worth the potential hassle IMO. This route may not be for everyone. If you are willing to take your car off the road, while you fabricate parts, test and try stuff to make it work, or else pay someone a blank check to make it work, then go for it.
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
17/1722/S7 install in a weekend, tune, done. Hassle free, drives great for years. Easy to troubleshoot and fix if necessary. Up to 2x stock HP and torque in less than a single weekend.
The GTB turbos may be a bit more sketchy for the casual backyard guy. Some of these forum threads cars are still a "work in progress" after months and even years of fiddling. Is there any benefit in an ALH with stock internals and moderate fueling? (up to R520 and stock IP ~180 ish whp) Probably not enough to make it worth the potential hassle IMO. This route may not be for everyone. If you are willing to take your car off the road, while you fabricate parts, test and try stuff to make it work, or else pay someone a blank check to make it work, then go for it.
Although a pro adapted my 1756, I'm pretty sure I could have done it myself.
It's not exactly rocket science. The only "work in progress" is planning the next upgrade.
The real surprise was how well it works with the pre-existing tune and stock auto injectors!
 

KERMA

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
here
TDI
99 beetle and 04 jetta
maybe not rocket science, BUT there is a clear difference in the process to get each one to work.

And cost

---------------------------------
1722/17/S7:
100% bolt in uses stock piping and connections.
Cost ~$1000
including comp adapter and oil lines, turnkey, done. 4 hour installation. Double stock hp/torque potential. (more than "modest")

----------------------------------
1756vk:
need a kit in order for the turbo to install
Cost: ~$2500
(plus the undetermined cost of "not included" stuff)
Plus overseas shipping cost for oversized items like the downpipe.
not included: vnt conversion (extra cost option)
not included: compressor outlet
not included: pipe to the IC
not included: inlet piping airbox/turbo
not included: Cat or cat-back exhaust fitting/adaption.
EGR use not possible.

---------------------------------
1756vk bare Turbo alone
Cost ~$1400 no adapters, oil lines, pipes, manifolds, or vnt conversion. You can get by cheaper using a passat manifold and adapter plate, then fabricate your own downpipe, inlet and outlet pipes, figure out the silicone, etc if you are so inclined.
Total cost = ?

-------------------------------------

The installation process will be easier for some guys than others.

If you are a skilled fabricator or shop owner, the installation process will be easier. Or if you don't care how much it costs to pay someone else to do it.

With moderate fuel mods, and stock ALH internals, there won't be enough (any) performance difference to justify the extra expense or aggro. IMO

AND remember here's what the OP wanted:
Looking for modest power gains for an ALH.
 
Last edited:

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Here's a dyno of my car with a 17/22, PP520s, and 11mm pump, along with a few other mods.


If you're having trouble reading the numbers it's 160 HP/280 torque. I have a 1756 sitting in a box behind my desk along with a port-matched BHW manifold. I was going to install it but realized I needed to work out intercooler piping, airbox to turbo connection (may not be able to continue to use my PD150 airbox to intake), and would need a new downpipe. I also wasn't happy with where the actuator sat, and would want to cut off and move the compressor exit so it didn't end up too close to the block when installed. All of these things are easy enough to do, but take time and/or money, especially the intercooler piping and downpipe. I wasn't concerned about tuning, but didn't know how bulletproof the setup would be. And I drive this car a lot of long distances, don't want to have problems at bad times.

I probably will still put the 1756 in the car at some point, but right now I"m happy with the 17/22. And with a fresh tune it's now pushing 50 MPG even on winter fuel.
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I almost went with a 17/22, but last minute I decided upon the 1756. That being said, echoing Kerma, the 17/22 is a *really* good bargain. However, if you decide you want more, it would have been better to just bite the bullet and do the 1756.

IBW, what is the difference between the BHW and AFN manifolds?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
The AFN manifold has notoriously poor airflow, according to a number of folks I talked to when selecting components. Some would argue that small passages don't matter in a turbocharged engine, but I was able to locate both so I went with the BHW. Also, I had my head ported at the time and it seemed silly to provide more airflow in the head and less in the manifold.
 

JFettig

Vendor
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Location
Blaine, MN
TDI
B5 Passat, 2010 Jetta
Peter, they are the same. The only difference is the added egt port in the bhw manifold.
 

sccaddy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Location
South Carolina
TDI
96TDI Passat, 1.6 81d caddy, 86d golf, 82d rabbit, 81ALH caddy, 82 Westy
Indigo, what tune do you have now? If you went with 764's what #'s do you think you could get? I'm gonna use a 17/22, frank's06 cam, Malone3 with 764's and lift pump. Hope to have at least 170+. Anyone think it would make that or more?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I think 170 will be a stretch with a 10mm pump, but you may get close. You should ask your Malone tuner what nozzles he prefers, but I hear 764s are popular with them.
 

darkhorse

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
'06 Golf GLS, '01 Dodge/Cummins
IMO the Kerma K3 is a nice step between the 17/22 & the GTB 1756 in both price & performance.
 

Sc0

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2000
Location
Houston, TX USA
TDI
'02 Golf GL 5sp Candy White Tan cloth interior
I have a GTB1756VK turbo kit from Darkside that I will be installing when I get some time. Went through an 1856, and two 1852's... Shipping only took 3days so it was rather expedient. I am running oem bottom internals with 278k miles on the clock, if I ever build a bottom end I will go for the 2260 at that time. Turbo comes with everything to bolt it in minus the intake pipe, all my plumbing is custom so adapting the new turbo isn't difficult, if your running stock components then other parts will be required. Off hand you will need; turbo inlet pipe, intercooler/outlet pipe, 3 or 4bar map sensor, and exhaust...
 

darkhorse

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
'06 Golf GLS, '01 Dodge/Cummins
Darkside has excellent products & exemplary shipping. I know as I've ordered several items from Ryan. The 1756 kit runs about $3300 shipped to the Midwest. That puts it around $1000 more than a K3. I'm sure it has more potential but is it worth it? Opinions will vary. At a shade under $1400, the 17/22 will be the best choice for most.
 
Last edited:

john.jackson9213

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Location
Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI
1996 B4V
IMO the Kerma K3 is a nice step between the 17/22 & the GTB 1756 in both price & performance.
darkhorse: Are you talking about this as being better than than the 17/22???

- Kerma K3 hybrid (1856)
--- NEW TURBO ---

Our Kerma K3 (1856) hybrid turbo for the ALH, BEW and BRM (Please Call on BRM). It’s back with improvements by one of the most respected turbo builders with 40 years in the business. Features our updated 18-series 2nd generation hot side enhancements. Now taking pre-orders for delivery in 4-6 weeks. (average delivery time)



Price: $2,399.00
 

Diesel Mania_26

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
Acton, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf, 03 Jetta Wagon, 75 Westy (undergoing TDI conversion)
click the link 2 posts above yours...
thank you didn't see that...

as its a 'bolt in' I assume this a custom manifold pre-fabbed manifold? And I may have missed it but who is the actual manufacturer?

I didn't see details in terms of what else is needed to complete the mod - i.e. custom down pipe? Added FMIC? or larger Side Mount IC?

Seems like an interesting option.
 
Last edited:

darkhorse

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
'06 Golf GLS, '01 Dodge/Cummins
thank you didn't see that...

as its a 'bolt in' I assume this a custom manifold pre-fabbed manifold? And I may have missed it but who is the actual manufacturer?

I didn't see details in terms of what else is needed to complete the mod - i.e. custom down pipe? Added FMIC? or larger Side Mount IC?

Seems like an interesting option.
If you refer to the K3, Kerma has them custom machined from stock Garrett parts. externally it looks identical to a 17/22. It can be used without any other custom parts but like any turbo upgrade, other air flow modifications are needed to bring out it's potential.
 

Diesel Mania_26

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2010
Location
Acton, Ontario
TDI
03 Golf, 03 Jetta Wagon, 75 Westy (undergoing TDI conversion)
If you refer to the K3, Kerma has them custom machined from stock Garrett parts. externally it looks identical to a 17/22. It can be used without any other custom parts but like any turbo upgrade, other air flow modifications are needed to bring out it's potential.
fair enough. sounds like it has some potential. Would that fall under a stage 3 or stage 4 malone tune?
 
Top