Clutch math

Whitbread

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Johannesburg, MI
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I've never seen this on the forums and in lieu of recent events with my car, I felt it was time. Here's all the math needed to mathematically select a clutch (provided you can get the specs from the manufacturer).

T=(PNrCf)/12

T=torque capacity
P=pressure plate clamp force in pounds
N= number of friction facings on disk (single disk has two facings so therefore 2)
r=mean effective radius
Cf=coefficient of friction

The mean effective radius is calculated by r=Sq. Root(((ro^2-ri^2)/2)+ri^2)
ro=outside radius of disk (and friction surface)
ri=inside radius of disk to friction surface
20% is the general accepted average for width of friction surface compared to disk diameter, A sachs vr6 happens to be 1.5" wide (under 20% rule it would be 1.8")
So with our disks, they have an outside radius (ro) of 4.5"and an inside radius (ri) of 3".

Cf ratings for different friction materials are as follows using averages:
Composite (organic): .30
Kevlar: .32
Copper ceramic: .35
Sintered Iron:.47
and if your pockets are deep enough, Carbon fiber: .48 and twice the life of just about everything else

Lost yet? Ok, so for our cars we have a 9" diameter single disk clutch.
90% of us are running organic clutches so we'll assume a Cf of .30. We'll use an 1600lb pressure plate for our calculations as it's a very common clamp load among smaller stuff (unless someone knows an exact one).

First we must find r. Normally the the 20% rule is used, but we'll use 1.5" since thats what the vr6 disk in my garage measures.

r=sq. root(((4.5^2-3^2)/2)+3^2) = s.r(20.25-9)/2)+9) = s.r (14.625) = 3.82

Now that we have r we plug it in to the formula:

T=(PNrCf)/12 = (1600x2x3.82x.3)/12= 305.6 ft/lbs of torque capacity. Sounds just about right for what is claimed for a sachs OE vr6 clutch.

Equally useful to us is to turn the formula around to solve for needed clamp load:
P=(12xT)/NrCf
So for a tdi generating 400 ft/lbs of torque at the crank with an organic disk: P=(12x400)/(2x3.82x.3)= 4800/2.292= 2094lb minimum clamp pressure plate needed. A 2200lb plate would be a safe choice for this application.

Hope this sheds some light onto the subject and helps people to not over or under buy a clutch.
 
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cheeba

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May 9, 2006
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Regina, Saskatchewan
TDI
'02 Audi TT 225
Great post - this is the sort of stuff that makes TDiClub great! Now if only the Physics problems on my exams were this interesting ;)
 

jsrmonster

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15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
That is a good statics problem, but centrifical force also produces additional pressure on the fulcurm in the PP as rpms increase. I have run 220mm luk, 240mm luk, and 228mm vr6/G60 and all 3 held upto 400ftlbs ;-)

We ran both wet and dry clutch setups in our drag bike with 2 and 3 stages of clutch slip. We used a stepper mechanism and air/Nitrogen solenid/ piston to control how much centrifical force was allowed depending on RPM's If our clutch "didn't" slip, it would blast the rear 29" slick and we would loose the run! That was the most complicated work we did on the bike, and was $$$ state of the art R&D. The dry clutch worked best, but as you know motorcycle clutches live inside the gearbox (oil) so that made a greater challange. I could talk hours about clutches.
Jeff
 

Satiro

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Aug 3, 2006
Location
Spain
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IBIZA 1.9TDI 110hp AFN 1998
jsrmonster said:
I have run 220mm luk, 240mm luk, and 228mm vr6/G60 and all 3 held upto 400ftlbs
is possible that??? 400ftlbs(540NM) in a 228mm VR6/G60 combo? how many miles with it? For this clutch, Sachs is rated to 300ftlbs and Luk to 230ftlbs...:confused:
 

spdracr0

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Dec 28, 2006
Location
South Carolina
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2003 Silver Jetta
Why do the clutches not live in these cars? I know they make lots of torque back when I drove a mustang daily we basically ran what equated to a stock replacement clutch and could get 30K out of them and that was racing them every weekend. We would leave at 5K with slicks on the car with the nitrous activated as soon as the clutch dropped..That was a 10.5 inch clutch but we beat the hell out of them..So how many miles do you guys get from a replacement clutch in a jetta? What is the largest PP and disk we can run in one??
 
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BleachedBora

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Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
spdracr0 said:
Why do the clutches not live in these cars? I know they make lots of torque back when I drove a mustang daily we basically ran what equated to a stock replacement clutch and could get 30K out of them and that was racing them every weekend. We would leave at 5K with slicks on the car with the nitrous activated as soon as the clutch dropped..That was a 10.5 inch clutch but we beat the hell out of them..So how many miles do you guys get from a replacement clutch in a jetta? What is the largest PP and dick we can run in one??
Not sure on the largest...well...I'll leave your typo... ;)

I'm working on a big ol' clutch torque rating post for posting later, but for the moment bear in mind that what you get out of the clutch is easily + or - 10-15% of rated torque value. Also, bear in mind that one of the greatest amounts of wear that you'll get out of a clutch happens when you punch it in top gear at 1800 RPM or so. A 230mm SACHS clutch holds less than a 220mm LUK. Size isn't everything, it's how you use what you have that matters....However, if you have great size AND use it well then things work that much better.

Oh my, I think I'll stop for now... :eek:
 

dieseleux

Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
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Pas assez loin pour vider ma tank!
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Jetta TDI 02
Sintered Iron = Feramic ?
And what clamping force of VR6 pressure plate?

I have VR6/G60 with OFE disk, this work perfectly, feel like OEM with no slip.

I am curious to know how much force its hold in calculations.


Dieseleux
 

Whitbread

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Jan 21, 2007
Location
Johannesburg, MI
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Off the top of my head without checking, I believe Feramic is a more recent powdered metal/ceramic hybrid material with properties somewhere between copper-ceramic and sintered iron. Depending on the ratios of compounds in the material, I would guess it to have a Cf somehwere around .37-.40. Someone please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Assuming the formulas are correct, a VR6 pressue plate should be somewhere around 1600lbs give or take a little due to not knowing the exact Cf of an OE VR6 disk used in the math. I just used .30 since its the accepted average for an organic OE type disk. If anyone knows the actual specs please chime in :).
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
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Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
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Ibiza '99 90HP
@Bleachedbora, with my experience all the AFN (220mm) DMF style clutches slip sooner than the 228mm AHU ones..
 

dieseleux

Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
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Pas assez loin pour vider ma tank!
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Jetta TDI 02
After some search (google is your friend!) i found some info.

On another forum (diesel truck)
"Sintered iron is Feramic (grey iron or burnt medal dust compressed to form a friction material)

Just thought I would set the record straight.

Peter
South Bend Clutch"

This guys make performance disk clutch.

And description on another web page:

Feramic: This unique clutch material is one that incorporates graphite and cindered iron. The result is a friction material that offers good friction coefficient, torque capacity, and smoothness of engagement.


Sintered Iron: Extremely high temperature material. Engagement is extremely harsh and is generally considered an “on/off switch” both due to it’s characteristics and the clutch types this material is generally associated with. It requires a special flywheel surface. Material is metallic gray in color.

Information its a little contradictory!

My Feramic/organic disk are gray color on Feramic side and engage smoothly (possibly because a have waving sheet between both face!)
See my photo.
http://pics.tdiclub.com/showphoto.php?photo=36347&cat=500&ppuser=52721



Dieseleux
 

dieseleux

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Pas assez loin pour vider ma tank!
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Jetta TDI 02
List of result with different disk setup on VR6 12V pressure plate and G60 flywheel (228mm). (Thanks Whitbread for formula)
-Organic disk = 305.6 lb/ft
-Organic Feramic disk = 356.5 lb/ft (i take Cf=0.4 for Feramic)
-Full Feramic disk = 407.5 lb/ft
-Sintered iron/organic disk = 392.2 lb/ft
-Full sintered iron disk = 478.8 lb/ft

All result calculated for full disk, not for 4 or 6 puck (paddle) disk.

Feramic and sintered iron are very effective material for holding both have negative effect on shift time because are more heavy than organic or kevlar.
OK on road and dyno, bad for transmission synchromesh on 1/4miles and race track.


Dieseleux
 

Satiro

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Aug 3, 2006
Location
Spain
TDI
IBIZA 1.9TDI 110hp AFN 1998
Rub87 said:
@Bleachedbora, with my experience all the AFN (220mm) DMF style clutches slip sooner than the 228mm AHU ones..
AFN clutch isn't 220mm, at least mine isn't... was 225mm DMF clutch:)
 

Rub87

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
Belgium
TDI
Ibiza '99 90HP
Satiro said:
AFN clutch isn't 220mm, at least mine isn't... was 225mm DMF clutch:)
I could have lmeasured wrong, but AHU is 228 and AFN is smaller.. I touhght 220mm..
 

BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
1Z/AHU is 228mm, most came with VR6 discs and were good for 300 lb/feet. Early LUK ALH were 220mm and held right around 300 lb/feet as well, then in early 2000 they changed to the SACHS 228mm which held around 230 or so.

Clamp load with a VR6 is 450 kg. Clamp load on a powerclutch is is 520 and a DD kit is 800kg. Remember the DD kits use a different material though :).
-BB
 

KROUT

persona non grata
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Location
JAX FL
Aaron whats different about the dd clutch. When I installed Phillips it looked alot like a vr6 clutch as far as the disk material. It did have a very good stock feel that I liked alot.
 

BleachedBora

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
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TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
All I know about them is that they are hand made by a guy who has been doing these for years, they make many clutches for the Dakar rally, WRC etc... They use a custom blend of Kevlar, modify the SACHS PP for much higher clamping force, and a lot of other little things that make them special. I love it on my car though, and the 40 or so that have bought them from me have loved them too :).
That's about all I know... ;)
-BB
 

dieseleux

Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
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Pas assez loin pour vider ma tank!
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Jetta TDI 02
BleachedBora said:
Clamp load with a VR6 is 450 kg. Clamp load on a powerclutch is is 520 and a DD kit is 800kg. Remember the DD kits use a different material though :).
-BB
450kg is 990lbs...
Whitbread say 1600lbs!
What official load clamp of VR6 12v PP and if you have, what load clamp of original 228mm PP.
If 990lbs, i will correct the result of the formula and add oem PP result.


Dieseleux
 

n1das

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Location
Nashua, NH, USA
TDI
2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
dieseleux said:
List of result with different disk setup on VR6 12V pressure plate and G60 flywheel (228mm). (Thanks Whitbread for formula)
-Organic disk = 305.6 lb/ft
-Organic Feramic disk = 356.5 lb/ft (i take Cf=0.4 for Feramic)
-Full Feramic disk = 407.5 lb/ft
-Sintered iron/organic disk = 392.2 lb/ft
-Full sintered iron disk = 478.8 lb/ft

All result calculated for full disk, not for 4 or 6 puck (paddle) disk.

Feramic and sintered iron are very effective material for holding both have negative effect on shift time because are more heavy than organic or kevlar.
OK on road and dyno, bad for transmission synchromesh on 1/4miles and race track.


Dieseleux
I'm confused. :confused: The units of torque are now in pounds per foot (lb/ft) instead of foot-pounds (ft*lbs)??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I'm planning to go with the South Bend Clutch (SBC) setup in my 05 PD JWagen when it comes time to replace the stock clutch. I'm having to baby it now and be kind to it to make it last. I can make it slip sometimes with PD RC2 in the 1800-2400 RPM range. The SBC clutch will hold way more torque than I'll ever manage to put through it. Then I can move further up the performance ladder with the 05 PD JWagen. :cool:
 
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BleachedBora

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Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Location
Gresham, Oregon
TDI
'81 DMC-12, '15 GL350 CDI 275 hp/448 tq - '81 Caddy CJAA, '05 E320 CDI 250hp/450 tq, '23 ID4 AWD Pro S Plus
*SIGH* I should have kept my mouth shut--point is that my catalog has a very confusing way of showing torque capacity. It says under VR6, "Clamp load 450kg." There was a formula that I found to convert they confusing language they use and work with that, but I'm a little beat at the moment... ;)
 

mctdi

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Dec 10, 2004
Location
se WI
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2010 Jetta
dieseleux said:
10 feet tube with 1 lb at end equal a 1 feet tube with 10 lb at end!

LB/FT=FT/LB


Dieseleux
:eek: Shouldn't that be LB x FT = FT x LB
 

s7ven

New member
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Location
Portugal
TDI
Ibiza
Hello,

Can you give some advice.
I have ASV engine with 548nm and my clutch don't old this torque. Can anyone tell me some clutch who old like 600nm +-?
I have a stock flywheel with a changed clutch by a house here.

Regards
 

Whitbread

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Johannesburg, MI
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S7ven, look for something with around a 800kg clamp load and a ceramic disk. That will give you the lightest pedal possible while still being a streetable clutch.

If you used a sintered iron disk, you could go lower on the clamp load but thats really a race only setup. Street driving an iron disk is a pain in the arse and highly unrecommended.
 

dieseleux

Théoricien -TDIClub Contributor
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Nov 14, 2006
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Pas assez loin pour vider ma tank!
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Jetta TDI 02
Whitbread said:
If you used a sintered iron disk, you could go lower on the clamp load but thats really a race only setup. Street driving an iron disk is a pain in the arse and highly unrecommended.
I have and some friend also have Feramic/Organic full disk clutch and is smooth like oem setup with more holding torq.
Feramic is just not recommended for fast shifting (race and 1/4miles track).

I heard full disk ceramic on one side kevlar on another side is also a very good choice, more lighter than Feramic with good holding.


Dieseleux
 

Whitbread

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Johannesburg, MI
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Several
The hybrid disk setups like that are very nice dieseleux. Last week I actually installed a ceramic/kevlar unit in a 02 trans am. Very good street manners and so far holding up to a 700 lb/ft twin turbo ls2. If i slip my Clutch Masters setup, I will probably end up going with a hybrid unit myself.

I'm just not familiar with what is availible on your guys' side of the pond so I gave a recommendation on what I know is easy to get anywhere. Although at the current exchange rate, it's probably cheaper to buy it here and ship it over.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
Where do we get these exotic hybrid discs?

My G60/VR6 is slipping with just PP502's and a chip tune. I need a new clutch soon, and I don't drag race.

What's my best option Whitbread? Can I just resurface my flywheel and put one of these hybrid clutch discs in?

I will eventually push 350-400 ft*lb's of torque. I ONLY drive on the street and I never try to spin the wheels.

I just don't get all this clutch mumbo-jumbo people talk about--with all the subjective commentary from (mostly) drag racers...it just confuses me. I wish they would qualify their opinions by telling us that they are drag racers:(

Your input has been the most concrete and helpful so far. Thank you!
 

KROUT

persona non grata
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Location
JAX FL
nicklockard said:
Where do we get these exotic hybrid discs?

My G60/VR6 is slipping with just PP502's and a chip tune. I need a new clutch soon, and I don't drag race.

What's my best option Whitbread? Can I just resurface my flywheel and put one of these hybrid clutch discs in?

I will eventually push 350-400 ft*lb's of torque. I ONLY drive on the street and I never try to spin the wheels.

I just don't get all this clutch mumbo-jumbo people talk about--with all the subjective commentary from (mostly) drag racers...it just confuses me. I wish they would qualify their opinions by telling us that they are drag racers:(

Your input has been the most concrete and helpful so far. Thank you!
Nick how many miles are on it? How is Phillips holding up I really like the feel of the one I put in his car.
 
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