0.341's installed

Previously I've had R520's maxed out at around 190bhp with 10mm pump and BV43 at 1.7bar

Today the HFLOX 0.341s went in

All running 'ok' with a best guess remap to aim for the same power

- idle IQ at 5.5mg (no smoke when warm, a bit of white when cold) and didn't need to adjust.
- I haven't checked static timing yet, when driving it follows requested timing ok but won't go more retarded than 0deg at the mo.
- a white haze (very light) when accelerating hard
- not much response under 1600rpm (map needs some work)
- EGTs at 830C max so far so similar to R520, probably hotter.
- boost creeping slightly to 1.8bar as before

So all in all running 'ok'. I do have an 11mm pump which will go on when I do my cambelt this summer. GTB2060VKLR too, currently teasing me in the garage

Oh and the forged bottom end which is sat in a box.... The list goes on...

Will update with mapping improvements and mpg etc

Ultimately, probably worse than the R520s for ~200crank hp with a 10mm pump at the mo.

Oh aside, I went to fit the injectors and can't get onto the new injector 'retainer clamp' bolts with a socket! The new bodies are different to mine, with a T30 torx c'sunk bolt sticking out where the fuel return pipes plug in, which mask the clamp bolt! So had to nip up with a stubby 13mm spanner....as per image I found below.

http://www.dbwllc.net/app/uploads/2014/09/injectors02a.jpg

Have I got the wrong bodies? Do I need different bolts? I didn't know some were like this. My originals are simpler in design and don't mask the clamp bolt.

Cranking is taking longer (again) over the R520s

Should 0.341s be able to fire up straight away with a 10mm pump please?

Hello.

I not have .341 but it must be no difference between starting.
Check case pressure maybe not enough when thise big nozzle's.

R520's flow plenty for a GTB1756/2056, especially with an 11 mm pump. As such, going from 0.260's to 0.341's is a *big* bump up in fueling but you don't have the air to burn all of the fuel. Since you don't have massively more smoke it sounds like your 10 mm pump is a bit aged.

mk1-83 said:

Check case pressure maybe not enough when thise big nozzle's.

Click to expand...

That's where my money is with a 10 mm pump, especially if it have 300K miles on it etc.

Many thanks

DC, did your comment above assume I'd not turned the pump down, out of interest?
I've dropped pump voltage from 4.44v to 3.65v at 4000rpm since fitting the 0.341s, hence the same intended power target. So i don't believe a pump issue.

My main questions are:

- ref my first post, these injector bodies are physically different to my originals. How come?
- is white smoke across the Rev range showing my timing is too advanced? I now have 15 degrees advance at 4000rpm (18deg with R520s)
- why don't I have black smoke? White smoke is partial (incomplete) combustion?
- cranking now takes longer. Should that be expected? When warm it's fine. Glow plugs ok. Compression I haven't checked but I have no reason to suspect anything is wrong based on previous power.
- Can I make the glow plugs stay on for longer?
- I have found the start IQ map, I can adjust this to help startup? Just add more fuel?
-How can I check case pressure please?
- Will a lift pump help?
- Group 13 shows two injectors at minus 2mg. These have been set up by Darkside so should I be surprised by this? Apart from injector #3, the other three can go in any position?

One final thing I forgot to mention is that when cold, the idle IQ is 10.0mg then quickly drops to 9.....8.... And settles at 5.5 when warm. Does this tell me anything with regards to what needs correcting?

Thanks

Pump case pressure to measure on the back side of the pump sits a bolt 12mm
I use a banjo m8 plug in and see 11bar around 2000 rpm

What pressure should it be please?
Can you post a photo of your installation?
Can anyone answer my questions above please?

bhodgkiss said:

Many thanks

DC, did your comment above assume I'd not turned the pump down, out of interest?

I've dropped pump voltage from 4.44v to 3.65v at 4000rpm since fitting the 0.341s, hence the same intended power target. So i don't believe a pump issue.

Click to expand...

Yup, I missed this in the initial read. Sorry.

bhodgkiss said:

My main questions are:

- ref my first post, these injector bodies are physically different to my originals. How come?
- is white smoke across the Rev range showing my timing is too advanced? I now have 15 degrees advance at 4000rpm (18deg with R520s)
- why don't I have black smoke? White smoke is partial (incomplete) combustion?
- cranking now takes longer. Should that be expected? When warm it's fine. Glow plugs ok. Compression I haven't checked but I have no reason to suspect anything is wrong based on previous power.
- Can I make the glow plugs stay on for longer?
- I have found the start IQ map, I can adjust this to help startup? Just add more fuel?
-How can I check case pressure please?
- Will a lift pump help?
- Group 13 shows two injectors at minus 2mg. These have been set up by Darkside so should I be surprised by this? Apart from injector #3, the other three can go in any position?

One final thing I forgot to mention is that when cold, the idle IQ is 10.0mg then quickly drops to 9.....8.... And settles at 5.5 when warm. Does this tell me anything with regards to what needs correcting?

Thanks

Click to expand...

1) If your injector bodies differ only by the fastener and the return nipples, I wouldn't worry about them in the slightest. Can you post a photo of the obstruction that the bolt presents, if I understand your problem correctly.
2) There is what the tune calls for and how the pump is actually setup. Also, since you have more fuel injected in a shorter duration, this effectively advances your timing a bit. Retard the pump or apply and offset in VCDS and see if that fixes it.
3) You're burning all of your fuel and/or you're underfueled and running leaner than a lean 'stoichiometric' reaction. Since a stoich. burn will still produce black smoke, which is why we run lean.
4) Cranking is probably related to the lower injection pressure
5) Yes, via a tune of minor adaption in VCDS
6) Check the others first
7) Answered
8) No. It helps with fuel starvation at higher RPM
9) The closer to 0, or under positive or negative 1 the better. There can be a number of factors for this.

Many thanks

- yes I understand why no black smoke if lean, I just meant why is the smoke white, but looks like not combusting well.
- Yes I'll retard the timing and give it a go, and increase glow plug time.
- Static timing is at the more advanced end but within limits, so where I'd normally like.
- The cold cranking is a pain. At this rate the R520s will go back in.
- Yes just the return nipple bolts masking access onto the clamp bolts
- so I don't adjust the start IQ map to add fuel to fire it up more quickly when cold?
- measuring case measure might not be too easy.

I have tested 0.341 with old AHU 10mm pump. Turbo was GTB1756VK. 0.280 size nozzles are much better match for your combo.

I think you need quite advance timing for too tired pump and too big nozzles, try more advance timing for low rpms. My timing was max.19@5000, max power 210bhp.

Many thanks

I have 15deg advance at 4000rpm at the mo, so I wouldn't say too retarded?
If anything I was thinking of going more like 13deg (and adjusting accordingly across the range) as the injection duration should now be so short.
Hmmmm I can try both I guess.

Timing is following requested well so I wouldn't say the pump is that tired? It ran very well with R520s.

Aside, I've seen people say that when they do the tdi timing checker if they see 'engine not hot enough/too got' etc it's the fuel temp sensor within the pump playing up. I'll log group 7 and see what it shows, as this could be the cause of poor starts?

Hi if you wanted .275 hflox I'm interested in youre .341.

You just need a wobble extension for the clamp bolt:

Edit - on a second look, crow's foot wrenches:





Any part numbers on the bodies?

How come you only got like a 190bhp with the R520's? Surely they should manage more than that? Is it due to the older pumps?

(Not arguing, just curious)

BV43 Doesn't quite flow enough air. It's smaller than a GTB1756:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=291947

Thanks Mikki, yes I was looking at ordering one of these yesterday. It's very tight past the injector (the head of the bolt scrapes the body)
The bodies are transporter bodies apparently. I still wonder if the bolts are different on these. I'll try and get a part number.

The bv43 can do 225bhp (strike did with 11mm/R520)

I don't know how these were setup shim wise, possibly they could be re calibrated to flow more. I've not done hammer mod either

Driving the car yesterday, other than cranking being a pain, the injectors run well.
A bit of white smoke but not changed the timing yet

Mpg readout seems to have taken a big hit - and I've adjusted the parameters so that this should be correct still. Hmmm
On tickover it smells pretty hot, 5.2mg when idling with engine warmed up so that looks ok.
Is that a genuine 5.2mg though, or if my pump voltage map is accurate at the bottom end, could this still be say 8mg?

I lengthened the glow plug duration (at 19C yesterday it changed the duration from 0s to 1.01s) and I didn't notice a difference

It can take 5 seconds until the glow plugs are red hot

Ok I did some tweaks today:

1) Retarded the timing across the map (to about 13.5deg at 4000rpm)
- EGTs up to 850C and still climbing
- Pump or turbo had a strange noise at WOT
- smoke now black and a heavy haze

2) Advanved the timing across the map (to about 17deg at 4000rpm)
- EGTs under 800C
- Engine sounded better
- still some smoke, less at top end

So I'll stick with the more advanced timing and turn the fuel down a bit.

bhodgkiss said:

Thanks Mikki, yes I was looking at ordering one of these yesterday. It's very tight past the injector (the head of the bolt scrapes the body)
The bodies are transporter bodies apparently. I still wonder if the bolts are different on these. I'll try and get a part number.

Click to expand...

Socket-head bolts on the Transporter so that'd explain it (M8x50)

Yes that'll explain it! Thanks

A few more questions please:

1) Why is the idle IQ starting at 10mg when cold and dropping to 5mg when hot?
- this must simply be what is needed to keep idle revs at 861rpm?
- So fuel pressures are so low that it's just wasting a load of fuel to achieve idle revs when cold?
- My R520s certainly weren't that high.

2) Even with an 11mm pump, will 0.341s ever crank well and not smoke at low rpm?

3) For a 250bhp (crank) power target, am I best with 11mm/0.275s? Or will 0.341s atomise well enough and give a shorter injection duration, lower egts etc?

4) My MPG readout has dropped massively, now down in the low 30mpgs. I've tweaked the maps so the readout should be correct. If so that's very poor.
- I'll have to measure it at the pumps....
- What MPG have other got with big nozzles?

5) I want to try and refine my 10mm/0.341 remap
- what maps/hardware tweaks will help with cranking and low rpm smoke?
- static timing is towards the advanced end of the graph
- should I adjust the start IQ map?
- glow plug time I've increased a little. I guess a bit more might help
- anything else?

Many thanks

Maybe you have some problems with that set. My cars have always started better with bigger nozzles than smaller. I think that 0.275/0.280 is better pair with 10mm pump but with 11mm things are little different. 0.275 is quite maxed at 250whp, 0.341 give more room for future improvement.

Many thanks, I mean 250crank hp so ~220whp
The R520s took a bit longer to start, and these 0.341 are just far too long
Fine when hot of course. So I could just ramp up the glow plug time...?

Moivw, how did you get on with cranking with your 10mm/0.341 combo?

Sorry, 250bhp. 0.341 is just too big nozzles for your goal.

I have had perfect cold starts (-20 degree celsius etc.) with big nozzles. It depends on how much fuel and pump timing also.

.275 perfect for youre goal

bhodgkiss said:

Ok I did some tweaks today:

1) Retarded the timing across the map (to about 13.5deg at 4000rpm)
- EGTs up to 850C and still climbing
- Pump or turbo had a strange noise at WOT
- smoke now black and a heavy haze

2) Advanved the timing across the map (to about 17deg at 4000rpm)
- EGTs under 800C
- Engine sounded better
- still some smoke, less at top end

So I'll stick with the more advanced timing and turn the fuel down a bit.

Click to expand...

Makes sense, the ignition delay shouldn't change as much (perhaps slightly smaller because of bigger fuel droplets)

I ran 0.300's with my 10mm pump with over 400k on the pump with no issues.

Had enough fuel to clear an entire intersection even with a GTB1756Vk @30psi

0.341 is too darn big

The 0.341s are turned down enough to give just a haze at WOT, and I'll try turning them down even more with my current 25psi tune.

I'll be adding a lift pump soon to see if the cold cranking improves.

A few people have suggested fuel may be draining back to tank and if so, the lift pump may help cranking, although ideally i'd fix the cause of this separately if so.

Ultimately I have a turbo for ~36psi and an 11mm pump to install, so if the 0.341s keep the duration low at that level then they might be a good choice then.

Oh yeah. With a tune I got the smoke in check. I'm just saying they are HUGE lol.

I had long cold starts. But I had no glow plugs plugged in and turns out one of my pistons was scratched up.

I don't think a lift pump will help unless your fuel filter drains overnight. Mine did that for a while on my 1.6

Fuel will drain if your seals are bad to where you're loosing prime.