Audi A4 3.0 TDI Turbo upgrade options

I currently have a B8 A4 3.0 TDI quattro remapped by Rick at Unicorn Motor Developments. Made 312bhp and 720Nm of torque on the dyno at MRC.The engine is a CAPA engine code.



It has a DPF/EGR delete and is running the standard turbo.
It has an upgraded intercooler and some exhaust mods but is basically running the standard exhaust with the DPF /Cat gutted so still passes current MOT's in the UK.
I have fitted a WMI system that I use at Santa pod/ GTI international etc and on the odd time the car sees some track action. Current best 1/4 time is 13.3s at 104mph. There is a build thread here with pictures and videos.
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/karls-3-0-tdi-build-thread.204785/

Having been dabbling with diesels for quite a few years now I have always found this forum very useful, and a lot of the users on here extremely knowledgeable and helpful, and have noticed a few of you have had dealings with this or the 2.7TDI engine.
I have bought another standard 2060VK turbo the same as fitted to the car at the moment. I would like to upgrade it with a larger MFS /billet compressor wheel and am looking for around 360bhp. I know I will lose some of the low end performance I have at the moment but the question is how big a compressor wheel to fit ?. 6 +6 or GTX 11 blade or is there no real difference.
I don't really want to fit a larger turbine if I can get away with it as I know that will definately slow the spool. The same I believe of cutback turbines.
The current map peaks around 1.8 bar at 3K rpm and this is down to just over 1.6 bar at 4K RPM , fuelling looks to be about 80mg/str at peak power.Fuel pressure is running at 1800 bar.
So if you have had some dealings with tuning these engines or have any ideas on what Is needed to get to around 360bhp but still maintain as much driveability as possible it would be great to here from you.

Karl.

It's more important to upgrade the turbine wheel in that turbo. Comressor is probably good enough for 350hp. Turbine chokes way earlier.

Take a basic gtb2363vk upgrade

What both said. Even with AMG turbine that engine is going to have over 3bar EMP at 4500rpm and 1.9bar boost. And that was with only 78mg of fuel.

Hello thank's for the replies.
I have come across mentions of an AMG turbine is this a particular turbine used on a specific turbo. Is it similar to a GT23 turbine or a GT25?.
Looking at some of the turbo's available in particular the LOBA items (I know they are ridiculously expensive ) it seems apart from a larger billet compressor wheel they use the standard turbine and do some machining to improve flow. Thats the LO350.
https://www.facebook.com/LOBA.Motor...26960.156342304406915/524847934223015/?type=1

Loba also do an uprated version of the GTB2260VZK turbo used on the newer 3.0 TDI cars and this again appears to have an uprated billet compressor wheel and some machining of the standard turbine housing yet this is supposed to be good for 370bhp.

http://www.atp-tuningshop.de/Turbol...--1129/LO370P-Upgrade-Sport-turbocharger.html

The dyno plot associated with the L0370P is very interesting in that it seems to have 95% of what mine has at the bottom end but a lot more top end performance. Which is exactly what I am looking for.

Karl.

Instead Loba overpriced stuff try this instead: http://www.fin-turbo.fi/index.php?id=43

Thanks for the link to Fin Turbo they do look like very good turbo's I have seen several used by JD Engineering on 3.0 TDI cars.
My question regarding the Loba turbos is that they seem to be able to get performance out of a turbo and still keep the turbine size supplied with the turbo.
The Fin Turbo looks to be something like a GTB2566VK the same kind of thing supplied by Darkside.

Clipping the turbine wheel is not the brightest way of enhancing turbine flow. Easiest and cheapest but thats about it. Even with largest available turbine wheel for small size VNTs the EMPs are going to be stupid high when nearing 400hp. Some folks just don't care about it and use tiny tiny turbines mated with insane compressors. Just remember what goes in must come out.

Karl, i have a few turbochargers i have upgraded with billet compressor wheels, had very, very good results with a gtb2260vk with a titanium 10 blade compressor wheel, it did little over 330 Bhp on my old allroad tdi.

I have experimented with gtb2260 vklr, one of my mates fitted a 6+6 blades billet compressor and a tubular manifold to his 2.0 PPD Tdi and it does close to 300 Bhp too.

My latest project is a gtb2265 vklr, i am building a stroked 2.5 tdi engine for my b5 quattro to use it on, should spool more than adequate on your 3.0 Tdi engine.

You're welcome to come by my place and have a chat and possibly try some of my hybrid turbos on !

as before, turbine needs changing for sure

Thanks for the offer Chris. I am going to do some testing of my own to determine what the existing EMP pressures are like. Just ordered a pressure sensor off Fleabay.Will be interesting to do some back to back tests when I have this done.
Any recommendations on places where I can get the turbo modded?.
It does seem strange that LOBA can get so much out of there turbo's with a modified standard turbine.
What is this elusive AMG turbine people talk off.
If it is that the EMP is excessive what are peoples thoughts on an external wastgate?
There is a very nicely located EGR feed just under the turbo entrance in the collector. With a suitable spring and vacuum control arrangement on the wastegate would it not be possible to bleed off excess pressure without affecting the operation of the turbo .
Again most of the time this car will just be driving around quite normally so the low down response is quite important to me.

Karl.

diffas said:

Instead Loba overpriced stuff try this instead: http://www.fin-turbo.fi/index.php?id=43

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I consider these overpriced as well...
at least what I have seen these sold for here in Holland
an upgraded stock turbo for 2000+ euro...
OK... it is bolt on... but for that money.. I can have a
bunch of customisation done to fit a non bolt on turbo !!

JW

What do you want to do, use stock AMG gt23 turbine and larger compressor ? I used Adam at Tdi Turbos for some of my work, very good turnaround and high quality parts used throughout... It's a bit expensive but you gotta pay for quality ! As Ryan said above, you need upgrade the hotside and not go stupidly big on the compressor side either ! If you don't mind a bit of lag then 65mm compressor with a AMG turbine will do pretty well however i think a gtb2260vklr hybrid will spool quicker even with a larger 65mm billet compressor but it's a bit harder to modify and fit compared to a gtb2260vk...

Also, don't take Loba's claims as gospel ! It's known their claims are inflated and struggle to meet the target even with all supporting mods required !

Desertstorm,
Very nice numbers on your tune. My buddy has a 2010 A4 3.0, had it modified by MTM in Germany. He got similar numbers but 6 weeks into driving the car, the 7 speed DSG broke a main shaft bearing which destroyed the whole gearbox. He still had used car warranty on it so Audi was nice enough to install a new DSG with him paying 4k Euro, leaving 8k to Audi. They however only gave him a 2 year warranty if he swaps back to stock ECU. Car was in the shop for 4 weeks. He had it back for 3 days and the car stalled in the middle of the road. Back to Audi and they found out that the high pressure pump let go. So metal shavings everywhere, tank, fuel lines, injectors, just everywhere. He paid another 5k Euro to get that fixed.
This in a 120k km car. Apparently those are all well known problems to Audi but it seems that there's a time bomb waiting to explode. Just wanted to give you head's up.
I've done my fair share of modding Diesels and blew turbos and half shafts but I never experienced such a sad face of my buddy and spending so much money just to get it back on the road. He'll be driving it into the ground now because he'll never recover the cost..
Good luck with that tune.
Ed

Thanks for the warning Ed, fortunately mine is a manual car which was what I was looking for when I bought the car, It's a very strong box and the clutch will take 800Nm as standard. My car has the older CP1H design fuel pump and I use 0.5% 2 stroke in with the diesel and haven't yet had any issues in the last year.
It's a pity it doesn't seem possible to modify at GTB2260VK with a ball bearing cartridge as that I am sure would giveback a lot of the low end spool lost with a larger compressor / turbine.
As for the GT23 turbine how much bigger is that than the GT22 turbine? .I am sure I have read somewhere the older design GT23 is not as efficient as the GT22 and is from an older design turbo, how much more can it flow ?.
If a GT23 turbine was fitted I take it the associated GT23 VNT mechanism would be fitted as well.

Karl.

No, you only use the latest gt23 turbine which has the twin oil seal setup ! The turbine side has not evolved much in the last 10 years or so, the only thing that changed are the VNT mechanism and you keep you existing from the vk turbo. I modified the 2260vklr to fit a gtb2260vk exhaust housing or you can weld a vk flange onto the vklr housing which makes the vklr almost plug and play...

Changing the housing exhaust casing vklr vk is obtained by improvement on the original vklr?

Boyka said:

Changing the housing exhaust casing vklr vk is obtained by improvement on the original vklr?

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I don't think i understand your question, swapping the VKLR hotside to VK it just makes the vklr turbo close to plug-and-play onto the CR engine !

Sorry for my bad English, thanks for your reply.
Greetings.

Eck said:

Desertstorm,
Very nice numbers on your tune. My buddy has a 2010 A4 3.0, had it modified by MTM in Germany. He got similar numbers but 6 weeks into driving the car, the 7 speed DSG broke a main shaft bearing which destroyed the whole gearbox. He still had used car warranty on it so Audi was nice enough to install a new DSG with him paying 4k Euro, leaving 8k to Audi. They however only gave him a 2 year warranty if he swaps back to stock ECU. Car was in the shop for 4 weeks. He had it back for 3 days and the car stalled in the middle of the road. Back to Audi and they found out that the high pressure pump let go. So metal shavings everywhere, tank, fuel lines, injectors, just everywhere. He paid another 5k Euro to get that fixed.
This in a 120k km car. Apparently those are all well known problems to Audi but it seems that there's a time bomb waiting to explode. Just wanted to give you head's up.
I've done my fair share of modding Diesels and blew turbos and half shafts but I never experienced such a sad face of my buddy and spending so much money just to get it back on the road. He'll be driving it into the ground now because he'll never recover the cost..
Good luck with that tune.
Ed

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Hmm normally the CP4.x are really reliable pumps. I run mine at 1900 bar for 270k km. no issues. Never had a cp4.x fail in all cars coming to our workshop. on the other hand the Conti and Delphi pumps of 1.6 and 1.2 tdi EU5 are really really bad.

What about the dsg? is it a known problem or mainly because of the tuning? What torque was that car with the MTM tune making?

bad fuel and running out of fuel kill them.

adamss24 said:

No, you only use the latest gt23 turbine which has the twin oil seal setup !

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There is no OE twin ring GT23 turbine. At least not with 49mm exducer like on AMG C30 CDI cars. This ran out of production long before Garrett showed up with the twin ring design (mainly beacuse of the DPF used then...)

Stock GTB22 turbine has 45mm exducer, so there is quite a big gain on changing to the AMG turbine.

I had 2 bar EMP at 2bar boost @ 4000rpm on my 320CDI

Great information, part of the thing I am trying to avoid is losing too much of the bottom end response and by changing the compressor wheel and turbine I am going to do that I think.
Has anybody had any experience running an external wastegate ?. I was thinking that if excessive pressure was the issue that I will be seeing fitting an external wastegate to the EGR outlet and then venting that through a screamer pipe might be a solution.
I am only going to be running 2 bar max boost and it probably won't be that high at 4k RPM.

Rub87 said:

Hmm normally the CP4.x are really reliable pumps. I run mine at 1900 bar for 270k km. no issues. Never had a cp4.x fail in all cars coming to our workshop. on the other hand the Conti and Delphi pumps of 1.6 and 1.2 tdi EU5 are really really bad.

Click to expand...

I just pulled the regulator out of a 2009 Q7 (USA model) 2 days ago to confirm that its cp4 was toast. Possibly its a fuel quality issue in North America? This happened to be the first Q7 TDI that we have even seen in the shop.

Sorry to derail this thread.

I take it that if I was to fit the AMG 49mm turbine this would require a change to the matching VNT mechanism as the current one would probably interfere with the larger turbine. I understand the standard 45mm VNT on the GTB2260 is a 3rd gen design and helps towards the turbo response, changing to an older design VNT will not help that will it ?

No need to change VNT mechanics, I have built several GTB2260VK to AMG turbine, no problem.

Well hopefully I am getting there with this. Looking at dyno runs with hybrid turbo's on the 3.0 TDI most seem to have around a 66mm compressor with a larger turbine.
I have a choice of either a 6+6 wheel or a GTX style 11 blade wheel.
As I don't expect to be asking for more than 2 bar boost and I want the best spool from the turbo which one to go for, or isn't there really a lot of difference?
It seems to me that the 6+6 should be lighter having only half height blades on 50% of the blades. The 11 blade wheel seems to move more air at lower shaft RPM because of the extra blade area, but to do that probably requires more shaft power so does it take longer to spool? .

Decided on a 49MM AMG turbine with a 62mm ( 66mm extended tips) 6+6 compressor wheel, 50mm inducer.
This is virtually the same size as the smallest compressor in the EFR series, I believe these are a 7+7 wheel but hopefully the map is similar.

http://www.full-race.com/store/images/full/borgwarner-efr-6258-turbo-content-1.jpg

Hopefully this will do what I want, looking for around 350-360 BHP 750Nm. Car is a manual with a CP1H pump [FONT=&quot]CR/CP1H3/R85/10-789S running at 1800 bar so hopefully will have enough fuel and air to get there.

Karl.
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Curious if it will surge at lowrpm, low inertia wheels big trim compresso. Should be good respondibg turbi guess

My gtb2260 hybrid with titanium compresssor 10 blades GTX style compressor has absolutely no issues building 2.5 Bar of boost at 2800 rpm's on a 2.5 tdi engine however it surged a little in 5th at 2000 rpm's !