Tires: Michelin Primacy MXV4 or Energy MXV4 S8?

Bob_Fout

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WDM said:
...and a really ****ty one for the price too.
I've had zero issues with my Michi MXV4's, wet, dry, packed snow, fresh snow, you name it, that I can attribute to the tire.

The ONLY time I've ever slid in the rain was when I was driving too fast for conditions.

And as far as snow, never had an issue that cannot be attributed to (a) it's car, not an SUV or truck (b) it's not AWD (c) driving in a matter not commensurate with conditions.
 

Matthew_S

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Bob_Fout said:
The ONLY time I've ever slid in the rain was when I was driving too fast for conditions.
Of course how fast is too fast depends a lot on the tire.

I noticed almost everyone that complained about michelins lives in the PNW. Most Michelins that I have driven on do not do well in this part of the country. The constant rain and occasional snow are not really where they do well. I think that Michelins are second to none in quality but most of them lack really good wet weather performace, especially after the first half of the tread life.
 

Bob_Fout

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You cannot drive the SPEED LIMIT when it's raining and be safe, plain and simple. I don't care what you drive, slow down. This is all basic driving knowledge.

I've driven in mid-west summer storms ( heavy downpours where traffic slows to 30 MPH on the Interstate due to visability and volume of water on the road), zero issues.
 

Matthew_S

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I think you are correct the the Michelins are fine if you drive like a sane person. However some of us drive like complete idiots and the Michelins can't handle it.
 

ducatipaso

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Matthew_S said:
I think you are correct the the Michelins are fine if you drive like a sane person. However some of us drive like complete idiots and the Michelins can't handle it.
lol :D
 

WDM

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I noticed almost everyone that complained about michelins lives in the PNW. Most Michelins that I have driven on do not do well in this part of the country. The constant rain and occasional snow are not really where they do well. I think that Michelins are second to none in quality but most of them lack really good wet weather performace, especially after the first half of the tread life.
Exactly.

I had Michelins on my old beetles 20 years ago that were terrific on dry road but they were unpredictable when the weather crapped-out. Two decades later that's still my impression and after using Nokians for a couple of years I can safely say there's a profound difference in performance.

The issue is not whether someone purposely drives beyond the limits of adhesion it is the fact that, from my experience, the Energys are just too full of surprises in adverse conditions and I'm not the only one who believes so. I don't like driving as though I'm in a funeral procession and will take all the confidence in my vehicles traction I can get. The difference is driving "on eggshells" because one's tires are outmatched by the weather or feeling confident in one's tires because they offer superb, predictable performance in even the ugliest of conditions. I like to be safe which is why I rid myself of the Energys and mounted some real all season tires that would be cheap at twice the price.

Because I know how to drive and tested the limits of my tires in different conditions and in reasonably controlled circumstances I must drive like a madman because I'm sliding all over the place in traffic? I did this because I want to know how my car performs on the edge so I know where those edges are and can have zero issues also. C'mon Bob, you're not Ward Cleaver and I'm not The Beaver. We've disagreed about tires before and I'm not about to make assumptions about your driving skill because you choose to trust your safety to those particular tires. One thing is for sure...

"A man's got to know his limitations" - Harry Callahan
 
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VOLKSWAGEN_JETTA_TDI

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Bob_Fout said:
I've had zero issues with my Michi MXV4's, wet, dry, packed snow, fresh snow, you name it, that I can attribute to the tire.

The ONLY time I've ever slid in the rain was when I was driving too fast for conditions.

And as far as snow, never had an issue that cannot be attributed to (a) it's car, not an SUV or truck (b) it's not AWD (c) driving in a matter not commensurate with conditions.
Exactly, Monitor road conditions. If you guys have issues in the winer, get snow tires. These All-season tires are really 3 season tires, spring, summer, and fall so tire companies recommend that you get winter tires but here in Toronto, winters are not that bad and all-season tires can survive the winter with ease.
 

WDM

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Anyone else want to state the obvious and admit their "all-season" tires are handicapped unless one limits their driving to within city limits and/or drives with very conservative performance expectations in adverse road conditions?:rolleyes:

Most people might probably not know by now that michelins are the best tires for a Jetta (the models in question) because they're not necessarily. Anyone who thinks so either doesn't have to contend with really bad roads and weather conditions, has a set of Winter tires, is biased, drives very conservatively, is ignorant of better tires on the market or a combination of some or all. Many Jettas on the road come stock with Michelins so did you ever stop to think that's perhaps that's why so many Jettas have them? Some people like them and buy them again if they suit their needs, if they have more money than brains or they have no knowledge of and/or need for true all-season performance. To suggest otherwise would make you a troll, a fool or both I'm afraid.

I don't know where PDJetta lives or what his expectations are in a tire but if Energys are readily available they're wonderful dry road tires. Using them as all-seasons and driving with them in very wet conditions and snow would make any given person more of a hazard to themselves and others then they need to be, simple.
 
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DPM

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Odd that in Europe (other than the frozen Nordic lands) we use the likes of those Michelins as all-season tyres, with no issues in rain or on frost etc. What road surfaces are you dealing with, and what level of surface water, WDM?
 

doc_m

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it's vancouver we rarely see the sun, and have some rain once in a while. Pretty sure the new little ones have gils ;)
 

WDM

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I'm not saying the Energys can't be used in poor weather and on poor road conditions, I'm just saying if that's what you drive on more often than not they're a very poor choice because there are much more capable "all-season" tires available, especially for the price. If I rarely saw poor weather I'd agree that the Energys are a great choice because of wear (or lack thereof), performance and lower rolling resistance but that's not the case and my opinion is only formed from personal experience.
 

doc_m

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I would say nothing, really it's like everything else a matter of personal preference. As stated above i like what the fin's came up with for my car :)
 

PDJetta

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Thank you for everyone's input. I ended up getting the Primacys. I am happy with them so far. They seem to grip a little better, but are a little rougher (in transmitting road bumps). Coasting seems just as far as with the Energys.

However, I was not happy with Costco's installation job. Here's my thread on that:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=193923

--Nate
 

ruking

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WDM said:
I'm not saying the Energys can't be used in poor weather and on poor road conditions, I'm just saying if that's what you drive on more often than not they're a very poor choice because there are much more capable "all-season" tires available, especially for the price. If I rarely saw poor weather I'd agree that the Energys are a great choice because of wear (or lack thereof), performance and lower rolling resistance but that's not the case and my opinion is only formed from personal experience.
All we really know from your postings on this thread is you do not like Michelins. Fair enough. However you have yet to address ANY of the issues raised by the original poster. So if you have any "BETTER" suggestions to address those concerns, you are keeping it a secret.
 

ruking

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PDJetta said:
Thank you for everyone's input. I ended up getting the Primacys. I am happy with them so far. They seem to grip a little better, but are a little rougher (in transmitting road bumps). Coasting seems just as far as with the Energys.

However, I was not happy with Costco's installation job. Here's my thread on that:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=193923

--Nate
Well the thing Costco is good about is taking the effort to correct mistakes. In regard to the tire shop operations, to me they just take FAR longer to get done, what takes an independent shop far shorter to do. Example: 10,000 miles rotation, 4/6 hours vs 15-30 mins at my local independent shop. Yeah Costco uses nitrogen, but I check my tires anyway; a min of once per month. So now the local tire guy rotates the Costco bought tires.
 

WDM

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ruking said:
All we really know from your postings on this thread is you do not like Michelins.
All I know is that if that's all you (or anyone else) gleaned from my posts then that's unfortunate.
ruking said:
Fair enough. However you have yet to address ANY of the issues raised by the original poster. So if you have any "BETTER" suggestions to address those concerns, you are keeping it a secret.
O.k. then... If I have to compare apples to apples, may I suggest oranges. Doesn't matter anymore anyway apparently...

PDJetta said:
A visit to the Michelin web site reveals that the Primacy has a tread life of 620 and the Energy tread life is 440. Both tires cary an "A" for traction and temperature. To me this indicates the Primacy will have a 40% longer tread life. I assume this to be about 80,000 - 90,000 miles AT LEAST (since I have 75,000 miles on the Energys that are on the car now and they are almost to the wear bars).
Tread life is subjective and will vary but given the same driving habits then naturally, of course. 620 tread life is obviously more desirable and tires with such are generally more robust which will effect ride and performance. PD knows the answer to that already, what else needs to be said.

PDJetta said:
A also am assuming that the Energys will save at most 2% in fuel, due to slightly lower rolling resistance. If I calculate the numbers, I get a savings of about $100 going with the Primacys. I used $3.10 per gallon for diesel fuel and get about 32 gallons of fuel saved over the life of the tires, if Energys are bought. That's not a whole lot. Compare this to the cost savings of the longer life Primacys and you get about $500 tire cost (40% more life) = $200 - fuel savings of 32 gal. X $3.10/gallon = $101
I know this is going to sound absolutely nuts but I'd rather concern myself with whether or not their unpredictability and incapability in poor road conditions is someday going to end in tearing metal and airbag talc than whether or not I can possibly save a miniscule fraction of a penny per mile. That's just me and the types of conditions I drive in though. I surmise PDJetta doesn't have to deal with these types of conditions and can concentrate on the virtually irrelevant and totally speculative potential savings over the life of the tires.

It's his thread, his car and his life but I really have to laugh when trying to imagine utterly infinitesimal potential "savings" as even being a consideration or priority when buying tires. Definitely not a concern as far as I'm concerned but what do I know? That's all I have to say about that because frankly it's obsessive and ridiculous.

Hope that did it for you ruking and hope PDJetta enjoys his new rubber.
 
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ducatipaso

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Anyone using the treadwear, heat and traction numbers on the sides of tires to compare across brands is just a victim to marketing.

There is no true standard, nor any form of body that ensures that vendors do adhere to any form of standard for these ratings.

Michelin could give the Primacy an eleventybillion treadwear rating if they want.

wiki said:
Methodology

The wear on tires that are being tested ("candidate tires") is compared to the wear of Course Monitoring Tires (CMT), which are sold by the NHTSA at its UTQG test facility in San Angelo, Texas. Both types of tires are mounted on vehicles that will be driven in a convoy during the test, thus ensuring that the candidate tires and the CMT tires experience the same road conditions. The convoy, typically one of four or fewer vehicles, will drive 7200 miles on public roads in West Texas. Candidate tire wear will be checked during and after the test, and compared to the wear on the CMT tires from the same convoy.

The first CMTs were commercially-available Goodyear Custom Steelguards, and Goodyear Tire and Rubber Company produced all CMT tires from 1975 until 1984. From 1984 to 1991, the CMT tires were produced by Uniroyal. CMT tires are now "specially designed and built to American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) standard E1136 to have particularly narrow limits of variability." 1.

Treadwear Grade Number

The treadwear grade describes how long the tire manufacturer expects the tire to last. A Course Monitoring Tire (the standard tire that a test tire will be compared to) has a rating of "100". If a manufacturer assigns a treadwear rating of 200 to a new tire, they are indicating that they expect the new tire to have a useful lifespan that is 200% of the life of a Course Monitoring Tire.

Limitations

The DOT does not test tires. It depends on manufacturers to test their own tires and report the results. Unfortunately, this system has made treadwear ratings far less useful than the DOT had originally intended because tire manufacturers are able to use the treadwear grade as a marketing tool.

It is legal and permissible for a manufacturer to give their tire a 240 rating when their competitor's equivalent tire has a 220 rating; thus creating the false impression that the 240 tire is a better purchase because it will last longer. This tendency to inflate treadwear numbers has become so common that some manufacturers may report that ALL their tires have above average treadwear grades. Some are taking normal tires and reporting a treadwear of 600 or more, or giving a 220 rating to maximum performance tires with a reputation for poor tire life (e.g. the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar EMT).
...not to mention the fact that a tire that lasts 80,000 miles is hardly delivering performance in the typical definition.

Thoughts?
 

ruking

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"Hope that did it for you ruking "...

No, not at all!
 

WDM

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ruking said:
"Hope that did it for you ruking "...

No, not at all!
Damn. In that case I've made a standing appointment for you at Valley Girls Escort Services on Lundy Ave. in the hopes you can realize a "happy ending" to all this. They have my credit card #, it's on me buddy!
 

ruking

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WDM said:
Damn. In that case I've made a standing appointment for you at Valley Girls Escort Services on Lundy Ave. in the hopes you can realize a "happy ending" to all this. They have my credit card #, it's on me buddy!
Ya Cheapskate!! A set of tires would be better for me , ON your CC# :p Any tire places you like on Lundy Ave?
 

raybo

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Bob_Fout said:
You cannot drive the SPEED LIMIT when it's raining and be safe, plain and simple. I don't care what you drive, slow down. This is all basic driving knowledge.

I've driven in mid-west summer storms ( heavy downpours where traffic slows to 30 MPH on the Interstate due to visability and volume of water on the road), zero issues.
On I-75 in Florida, there is no slowing down during heavy rains. Folks continue to go 75-80 MPH!! During these adventures (for the 1st 35K), the PE A/S tires made it seem as if I were driving on dry road. Now with around 45K, they of course don't feel quite the same through standing water, but are still great on slick roads.

Ray
 

VOLKSWAGEN_JETTA_TDI

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VWTDIBeetle

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They Michelin rebate is right from Michelin them selves.
They give you the coupon and you submit it with your receipt.

You can buy the Michelin anywhere and call Michelin for the rebate coupon.

Be aware of the time limit on the offer.
 

ducatipaso

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VOLKSWAGEN_JETTA_TDI said:
The pole position is my second choice aside from the Michelin Exalto, the rest don't hold up as good from the numbers i see.
what numbers? read my post above. treadwear is subjective, and varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. you cannot use that value as a true means of knowing how long a tire will last. it's all marketing.
 

ruking

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ducatipaso said:
what numbers? read my post above. treadwear is subjective, and varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. you cannot use that value as a true means of knowing how long a tire will last. it's all marketing.
But I think because we have some common references: oem tires of Michelin,Conti, GY, we can do some reasonable projections.
 

ducatipaso

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ruking said:
But I think because we have some common references: oem tires of Michelin,Conti, GY, we can do some reasonable projections.
no, you cannot, and that's my point.

you can't project anything using data that is not standardised from manufacturer to manufacturer. only within michelin's product line does the treadwear rating have any validity for making an accurate comparison between one tire and another.
 

ruking

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ducatipaso said:
no, you cannot, and that's my point.

you can't project anything using data that is not standardised from manufacturer to manufacturer. only within michelin's product line does the treadwear rating have any validity for making an accurate comparison between one tire and another.
Well it is done all the time, and that is my point. Lets put it this way, I know for example that I can get close to and probably EXCEED 100,000 miles on Michelin (oems). Given how I drive, (on GY LS-H's) and how other folks who indicated similar driving patterns drove on Michelin OEM's. Keep in mind I have not done Michelin oems/Primacy's yet. So all of these factors conform to all the points you say will NOT be indicators!! Can I prove this? Yes, just need another 100,000 miles after I change to either the Michelin OEM's/Primacy MVX4's :)

Indeed I have already proved it with 100,000 miles plus on supposed absolutely "CRAP" tires GY LS-H's vs the Michelin MVX4's, which 4/5 or so years ago was the consensus opinion. It probably still is.
 
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ducatipaso

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a single case does not "prove" anything. you have not provided any empirical data to support your claims.

furthermore, if Michelins are the "best tires for a Jetta"... what are the best tires for a Golf? What about a Passat?

you also fail to define "performance"
performance is a subjective term as well

longevity?
lateral grip?
linear grip (as in snow/ice traction)?
noise/comfort (doubly subjective)?
appearance?
price?
 
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