Recommendations on a Suspension system

I've decided that the first thing I am going to do to my car is upgrade the suspension system. Unfortunately I have no idea where to begin! I thought that the Sport Springs in the VWoA Accessory catalog would be nice but neither the dealers nor anyone online has any clue to the quality of these. I have basically got "They are Eibachs - They *HAVE* to be good!"

Terminology such as "Stress bars" are very foreign to me. Essentially, I want a GREAT suspension system for daily driving. I also want something that is SET(I don't want to readjust when it starts snowing.)

That brings up a great point: Snow. I don't want to shovel it with my car.

Anyway, if anyone can recommend a set up for me I would really appreciate it. I'm just looking to make my car a little tighter so I don't become seasick. But also, I don't want to modify it to the point that I either shovel snow with it, have engine problems when it rains a lot, or I damage the other cars stock suspension components.

Is it possible to have your cake and eat it to?

What kind of car do you have?

Suspensions are a compromise. You either have them soft for a great ride or you have them hard for great handling or somewhere in between. Ride height has little to do with handling. It does effect it, though. So how much handling do you want? Or, a better question, how much ride comfort do you want to sacrifice?

You can get Neuspeed SofSport springs and Koni Adjustable shocks that will allow you to adjust the stiffness of the shocks to where you like. The SofSports won't lower your car much, if any. A good compromise would be to keep the stock springs and get Bilstien HD shocks, I hear.

Swaybars will stiffen the ride a little but wil help with body roll. This is especially true if you don't lower your car much.

Stress bars are to help reduce the flex of the body as the cornering forces try to flex the shock towers out of alignment, causing the tires to go out of alignment midway through a turn. They don't effect the way the car rides but, some say, it effects the way your car corners, expecially under hard cornering. Some people say they can't tell hte difference with or without it. If you don't turn corners hard, they aren't needed.

Lowering your car isn't needed nor wanted with a soft suspension. It's up to you.

I think I will want it lowered, but *ONLY* for a total of 1". For looks it will help a little ofcourse also for the suspension

Do you remember a little fun to drive car called the Golf Mk2 GTI 16V? That's where I want to be just to give you an idea.

Can you give me some $$$ estimates?

Nomad, what kind of car do you have?

I don't have it yet. I ordered a MY2K Golf GL TDI.

Well, like Peter said, the two ends of the spectrum are pretty much the MkIV TDI you're looking for, and an aftermarket that'll pretty much rattle your fillings. My wife's MkII GLI has Neuspeed sport springs with the Bilstein HD shocks, front/rear sway bars (25/28, I think), and a front strut tie bar. It used to be fun riding around in it, and it handles GREAT, but it's definitely a harsh ride. After driving around in the MkIV TDI, I would probably echo Peter's recommendation of getting the Bilstein shocks (or Koni or Boge...) and keeping the stock springs. I tell ya, there's something to be said for a smooth ride the older you get...
The only objection I have with the stock suspension is that it's too mushy when taking any turn at speed. Gee, go figure...

Nomad, I will have top say that you will need to get the car first to decide if you even want to upgrade the suspension. The reason I say that is because you may like the stock setup. You may hate it with a passion. You won't know until you drive it for a few days.

What I would recommend is to get the Bilstein HD shocks with the stock springs. If the car wallows too much for your tastes after doing this, then go with the thinner set of Neuspeed swaybars. Shocks should be about $450-500 for a set and swaybars are about $190 each. Springs are around $225 a set. Figure that it will take three to five hours to put these in and the alignment and that's how much it will cost.

Also consider that after doing the suspension, you may feel that the stock tires/wheels are inadequate. Then you will need new tires and wheels. Then the engine will feel a bit weak compared to the suspension. A Wett chip will help that. Hmmm, a never ending list of mods. Sounds familiar.

If you want a good idea what a modestly modified Golf suspension would feel like, drive a New Beetle. It's basically the same thing: Slightly lower and stiffer springs, different shocks, 16" tires with 55-series rubber, etc. I think the stock handling of my Bug is great, though I'll probably tweak it a bit when the struts wear out. The ride is firm, but still comfortable. It makes an excellent compromise between comfort and all-out performance.

-mickey

p.s. 1" lower springs, together with gas-pressurized struts, will result in a ride height a bit more than 1/2" lower than stock since the struts will tend to prop up the car a little bit.

Nomad,

By advise would be to use Eiback springs (1inch lower) but to change the damper as well (use KONI). In Europe there is two kinds of KONI dampers, which are different in stiffness. they are indentifiable by their outside colour, the red ones are the stiffest (the ones I use) and the yellow are just very slighly stiffer than the VW standard ones (exactly what you need). You have to know that changing the spriongs can be done without changing the dampers ,but the standard VW dampers are not "made" to work with lowered springs and therefore have to be changed sooner than they should.

Now if you want your car to be stiffer (and by then really stick to the road) then use "HR" springs (2 inches lower) with the KONI red dampers. Still be this you still keep some comfort, and bye bye the sea effect you were talking about. For me that's hiow all cars should be (to be honest even lower but i am the lowest I can according to the roads i use, I would love it to see my car flat on the floor with 20 inch wheels , gosh I am dreaming, i can't remember my name anymore, wooowwwwwwwwwwwww..... lets come back to reality. My first porposition is probably the bext for you.

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Youry
TDI-110HP boosted to 140HP VW GOLF 4 Belgian owner

Hey I got an opinion on this....

I went with Shine Racing springs and Bilstien HD shocks/struts. The setup is fantastic. My snow tires are 65 aspect ratio and my summers are 50. That made a huge difference in the bone jarring ride. I'm still "young" enough to like that but my next set of tires will likely be 55's. I guess since my girlfriend doesn't complain about the ride even with the 50's it can't be all that bad. Everything including labor was $730.

As far as a front sway bar goes,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Volkswagens have between 65-70% of their weight over their front wheels. This means understeer, in some cases severe understeer.
The last thing you want to do in this situation is install a larger front sway bar, not only does it cause more understeer but also unloads the inside
front wheel during hard cornering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

from Shine's website.


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D'nardo
Smokin into the new millenium...
98 Jetta TDI mit Wett. chip

Can anyone comment on what the difference in suspension might be for a GTI vs TDI? I would think that it would be an easy retrofit.

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Kato - 1999.5 A4 GOLF GL TDI Automatic, Flash Red

Hi,

I've read that Shine page, too. The thing I don't like about Shine is how THEIR way is the only way. They act as though the "California companies" (as if we don't know who they're talking about) don't know what they're doing. D', I have no doubt that you have great spring/struts. But you didn't upgrade the rear bar, right? (at least not at first, I remember) The stiffer springs alone help reduce body roll. For Shine: If the NFB (no front bar) approach is the best way to go, then why is Shine the only company doing it? Are all of other US and Euro companies morons that can't get with current events? One successful autocrosser (stock and modified VWs) explained to me that the thicker front bar is needed to compensate because when you upgrade the rear bar (especially to a REALLY thick one) you're actually ADDING the bar... not REPLACING the old one. Another theory behind the front bar is since 65-70% of the weight is in the front, a thicker front bar is needed to keep the extra weight under control. A car corners best when it's FLAT. That means thick sway bars. He even says many "stock" autocrossers add a front bar only and can oversteer on command (upgraded rear bars are not allowed in stock SCCA classes). His point is that a thicker rear bar/NFB may increase turn-in (of course, the rear is looser), but most of these maneuvering "tests" are done on tracks/courses under controlled situations. A car that is not neutral (ie: loose rear end that tends to oversteer) will be less predictable and more dangerous in an emergency (non-contolled) situation. Of course, a stiff front end is predictable, too: Slide straight into whatever you're trying to avoid (understeer).

Enough ranting. Personally, I'll probably do Neuspeed Sof-sports. I may even do the sway bars first (front first) to form MY OWN opinion based on MY experiences instead of regurgitating the words of others.

Take Care,

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Scott, KE4WMF
98 Jetta TDI w/48,000 mi
53 mpg (US) w/AC

http://members.aol.com/ThreeRibs/Volkswagen.html
(Features TDI Articles and Sound Files)




[This message has been edited by RADHAZ TDI (edited October 07, 1999).]

I had a Rabbit GTI set up by Brian Muschnick ( http://www.briansgarage.com ), who used to work with Dick Shine. It had the standard front and rear bars, Eibach pro kits, and Boge progas with an H&H 1 1/2" additinal rear sway bar. Lift throttle over steer in a VW! What a blast that car was!
Very bouncy, sharp ride though...

The Golf IV on the other hand is roughly 1000 pounds heavier and can handle a lot of chassis stiffening without becoming a stiff ride. I plan on ABT or H&R springs with Bilstein Sports. I have 16" wheels and will prolly stay with that. I think the car's considerable weight will asorb a lot of the jounciness experienced in the earlier Mk 1, 2, and 3 cars.

Kato,

In Europe, the difference between the GOLF IV GTI and TDI reagarding the suspension is both on height and stiffness of the car.

The GTI has its front lowered by 1 cm and the rear by 1.5 cm. They also changed the stiffness (a little stiffer) of the dampers, but just a little.

If you like cars that stick on the road, you will need more then that...

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Youry
TDI-110HP boosted to 140HP VW GOLF 4 Belgian owner

Nomad, I agree with Peter and Norman on this.
I've built a number of GTI's for both race and street...I've been most happy with the cars that I didn't lower more than 1". Given your choice of cars I'd install SofSport springs, Bilstien HD shocks and AutoTech bars front and rear. Next, don't go too big on wheels and tires...unsprung weight is the enemy of both ride and handling. I've found Borbet wheels to be some of the lightest. 16" is a good size for real world everyday driving...lots of great tires available for any purpose and season.

[This message has been edited by jacaster (edited October 08, 1999).]

I bought my brand new car, drove it all over the place the first day. And got extremly sea sick, 3 days later I went to Eurosport and got their stress bar. No more sea sickness, it _drasticly_ reduced the roll. It still tilts around long turns but im amazed at the hold even with stock suspension/tires. My old '87 gti had race suspension on it and it didnt hold this good even though it felt more secure due to less roll.

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2000 VW Jetta TDI