tomo366
TDI Lifer, Member #68
and they are going to lose more Sales......Because more alternatives are being offered every year.
I am just waiting for the Diesel Cruze and it will be Sayonara VW
NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation
- Thread starter dzcad90
- Start date
I am just waiting for the Diesel Cruze and it will be Sayonara VW
darrelld
Veteran Member
Doesn't the Cruze use the same CP4 type Bosch pump that VW uses?
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
Years ago, I ran a small manufacturing plant that made OEM parts for auto makers. I dealt with PA's from the auto companies. You have to put part of the blame on VW for the HPFP issue for the following basic reasons:
1. They (VW) approved the pump design,
2. They agreed to the pre-acceptance supplier (Bosch) test protocols,
3. They accepted the test results.
Both Bosch and VW are "at fault". Reason No. 2 is paramount.
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
Even the best design and test protocols can't predict accurately how well a part will hold up in real world service.
Once the problems start showing up in the field, the right thing to do is to acknowledge the problem and FIX IT.
I will venture that all the lawyering, warranty repairs, nhtsa interfacing, lost sales etc will end up costing way more than FIXING IT.
This thing is a pump. No excuse for it to be unreliable. No excuse for plumbing it so wear products go into rail and injectors.
Other CR engines have this sorted just fine.
VW and Bosch, fix it already.
There is no shame in a design proving sub-optimal, as long as it is resolved.
Much shame in finger pointing, denying, lawyering, foot dragging, etc.
At minimum provide a pump that separates cam chamber fuel from pump chamber fuel. That could be done very quickly.
Once the problems start showing up in the field, the right thing to do is to acknowledge the problem and FIX IT.
I will venture that all the lawyering, warranty repairs, nhtsa interfacing, lost sales etc will end up costing way more than FIXING IT.
This thing is a pump. No excuse for it to be unreliable. No excuse for plumbing it so wear products go into rail and injectors.
Other CR engines have this sorted just fine.
VW and Bosch, fix it already.
There is no shame in a design proving sub-optimal, as long as it is resolved.
Much shame in finger pointing, denying, lawyering, foot dragging, etc.
At minimum provide a pump that separates cam chamber fuel from pump chamber fuel. That could be done very quickly.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
I will not buy any diesel engine that has a Bosch CP4.1 pump at this point. That's most of the European-originated designs including GM's. I don't know what Mazda will be using.
An explicit unlimited-mileage no-questions-asked (no blaming the customer for fuel quality) warranty that includes coverage of consequential damage (injectors, lines, tank, filter housing, etc) might change my mind. Several years of experience without significant numbers of failures might change my mind for new vehicle designs.
I'm afraid that Bosch is doing to the current diesel generation what GM did in the 1980's.
keep on posting on the FB page then!
I also had a couple of contractors that work at my plant asking me about my car because interested in buying one, all I told them was that i loved the car but that it had this issue that was investigated by nhtsa that could potentially cause a 10K repair bill...they bought something else
I also had a couple of contractors that work at my plant asking me about my car because interested in buying one, all I told them was that i loved the car but that it had this issue that was investigated by nhtsa that could potentially cause a 10K repair bill...they bought something else
tomo366
TDI Lifer, Member #68
I had a 2008 Chevy HHR SS for 2 years (middle age thing) loved it and the dealer always treated me right!
and I love my Sportwagen but it is going to turn 60,000 miles in less than a month.......
darrelld
Veteran Member
That may be the key with the Cruze vs VW, GM may take care of their customers if they start having problems.
LRTDI
Veteran Member
Honda V6 engines with Variable Cylinder Management are proving troublesome for some people. Evidence is starting to come out with some engines being half destroyed and half ok due to the system
"At minimum provide a pump that separates cam chamber fuel from pump chamber fuel. That could be done very quickly."
Agreed, although if the failure issue starts with the pump piston(s) sticking in the aluminum bore, it might still fail, even with a separately lubricated internal cam.
I've wondered how difficult it would be for Bosch to modify the existing design to remove the aluminum bore from the equation. If adding a steel cylinder liner in the aluminum bore, then modifying the roller so that it could never float and dislodge would fix the problem, what would be involved to modify this pump? As you correctly stated, it's a pump, there doesn't appear to be any engineering reason it couldn't be modified. Bosch knows how to build a long lasting HPFP, they've already done that with the CP3.
Agreed, although if the failure issue starts with the pump piston(s) sticking in the aluminum bore, it might still fail, even with a separately lubricated internal cam.
I've wondered how difficult it would be for Bosch to modify the existing design to remove the aluminum bore from the equation. If adding a steel cylinder liner in the aluminum bore, then modifying the roller so that it could never float and dislodge would fix the problem, what would be involved to modify this pump? As you correctly stated, it's a pump, there doesn't appear to be any engineering reason it couldn't be modified. Bosch knows how to build a long lasting HPFP, they've already done that with the CP3.
chadwick1979
Well-known member
Posted as well. Let's create some waves everyone! I'm facing a $4k repair cost on an already clogged EGR/DPF. I'm the only one who is allowed to fill up my 09 Jetta TDI with DIESEL, but @ 105k if this happens to me and VW doesn't step up to the plate. Well I guess it just make more sense to call the junkyard. If NHTSA decides no recall required, then I will make plans to trade my TDI on the next day.
amy1000
Well-known member
Thanks Claudio and others, really enjoy reading your posts. Please everyone, it only takes a second to post a recommendation. Here's the link http://www.facebook.com/pages#!/VWwell the goal is to make people, potential buyers, aware of this issue. I posted on the vw page, honestly i do not expect a response from vw, but if even only 1 potential customer read my post and decide not to buy a TDI until this issue has been resolved, I have done my job!
Ask them to address the HPFP failures and offer extended warranty like BMW did for their customers.
HPFP metal consists of:
Metal shavings from 2009 VW Jetta HPFP were:
Wt. %
Iron 76.2
Chromium 2.94
Molubdenum 3.33
Vanadium 1.24
< 1%-Silver, Aluminum, Cobalt, Copper, Manganese, Nickel, Zinc. (percentages available). Trace amount of lead, tin and antimony.
Metal shavings from 2009 VW Jetta HPFP were:
Wt. %
Iron 76.2
Chromium 2.94
Molubdenum 3.33
Vanadium 1.24
< 1%-Silver, Aluminum, Cobalt, Copper, Manganese, Nickel, Zinc. (percentages available). Trace amount of lead, tin and antimony.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
^ That's interesting, and suggests that the problem is NOT the aluminum bore.
Chromium, molybdenum, and vanadium are all ingredients of alloy steel.
Chromium, molybdenum, and vanadium are all ingredients of alloy steel.
flyboy320
Veteran Member
Rusted metal rods in the fuel sending unit?
Not necessarily, as one slight failure may be the initial cause and the other the resulting effect. The analysis shows what metals are being liberated as the pump is destroyed, but perhaps not the catalyst that initiated the failure.
The pictures of a failed CP4 HPFP on this site show a cam and roller badly worn and those appear to be made of steel. Sometime back, the possibility was raised that a steel piston in an aluminum bore might experience enough frictional stickiness to allow the floating roller pin to dislodge, then rotate 90* at higher rpm.
All the pictures of those pumps I've seen showed the most carnage on the cam and steel roller pin. The report seems to bear that out.
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amy1000
Well-known member
See my previous post below... is this similar to what you are saying Ranger1?
Someone tell me about this MarkFive GTI Web group...and why VW is giving a warranty on the Camshaft and HPFP for the GTI high pressure fuel pump??
Camshaft and Cam Follower Warranty Extension
Posted by stringshifter6 on 01/13/2012
In addition to the pcv and intake manifold motor, Volkswagen also extended the warranty on the camshaft, cam follower and high pressure fuel pump to 120,000 miles or 10 years. As before, they will reimburse any out of pocket expenses related to failure of any of these components provided you have proof of payment and repair. Keep in mind this does not cover replacing followers, only components that have failed or have insufficient hardening. Look through the following letter and see what applies to you.For more information, check out my other posts:Cam Follower Camshaft and Cam Follower Warranty Extension
Camshaft and Cam Follower Warranty Extension
bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
The gas engines work differently. They use a lobe on the intake camshaft, that directly actuates the HPFP (which is a much lower pressure HPFP, too - in the ballpark of 1/10th of the pressure).
TDIJetta99
Top Post Dawg
The point was how VW is dealing with it... we all know it's a different setup...
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
darrelld
Veteran Member
Probably because there is no competition in the TDI space so they don't care.
here I come!
alright, I guess I'm diving in head first!
I've been a fan of VW my whole life but never owned one. As a kid in the U.K. my folks had 3 beetles and first gen golf and I have many fond memories. Always liked the style of them. As a car nut I've been aware of diesel pump issues for years and it's primarily what has kept me from switching from Japanese.
Today I trade in my '04 Civic Sir for '13 Sportwagen. I must say I added up the numbers last night and over 4.5 years and 62,000 miles the Civic has cost me a whole $7k, that's some cheap driving, with very little as far as issues, however the car just no longer suits recent changes to my life and it had to go. Oh and since this topic got off on the Honda/Acura thing, my Civic has 211,000km on it and doesn't burn a drop of oil, it's smooth as butter in every regard, just basic maintenance and all has been good, so they aren't terrible cars in general.
I guess the main blessings are I'm in Canada and we have slightly better fuel and less known occurences. Now that I've gone through many many pages of this thread I'm going to try and forget about it ....at least until it happens to me!
Here's hoping the 2013s are ok, I didn't notice any for 2013 yet, unless I missed it??
Neil
(still own an '85 Corolla and an '06 Nissan Xtrail).
alright, I guess I'm diving in head first!
I've been a fan of VW my whole life but never owned one. As a kid in the U.K. my folks had 3 beetles and first gen golf and I have many fond memories. Always liked the style of them. As a car nut I've been aware of diesel pump issues for years and it's primarily what has kept me from switching from Japanese.
Today I trade in my '04 Civic Sir for '13 Sportwagen. I must say I added up the numbers last night and over 4.5 years and 62,000 miles the Civic has cost me a whole $7k, that's some cheap driving, with very little as far as issues, however the car just no longer suits recent changes to my life and it had to go. Oh and since this topic got off on the Honda/Acura thing, my Civic has 211,000km on it and doesn't burn a drop of oil, it's smooth as butter in every regard, just basic maintenance and all has been good, so they aren't terrible cars in general.
I guess the main blessings are I'm in Canada and we have slightly better fuel and less known occurences. Now that I've gone through many many pages of this thread I'm going to try and forget about it ....at least until it happens to me!
Here's hoping the 2013s are ok, I didn't notice any for 2013 yet, unless I missed it??
Neil
(still own an '85 Corolla and an '06 Nissan Xtrail).
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
What makes anyone think that GM will do a better job with the Cruze diesel than VW? Does anyone know for sure which pump the Cruze will have and if it will ever show up in the States?
As far as GM taking care of their customers, I think there are a lot of people out there right now that would greatly disagree with that statement. Didn't GM say they would not honor warranty claims on vehicles rpoduced prior to the bankruptcy? That leaves a lot of cars with out of pocket repairs, if/when something goes wrong.
kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Welcome to the club. I hope your Golf wagen is as problem free as my JSW and Golf.
darrelld
Veteran Member
Amy as you can see by the previous posts there are those that just like in Vegas are willing to roll those $8,000 dice and believe they can never come up with snake eyes.
This is precisely the reason why VW does not extend the warranty, why should they?
This is precisely the reason why VW does not extend the warranty, why should they?
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kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The odds of rolling snake eyes is 2.8%. The current reports of HPFP failures is under 0.1%. Even if we make the rather large assumption that only one out of ten failures have been reported, that brings the odds up to 1% or 99% odds that you won't have a failure. I'd plop down $8000 on any table in Vegas for 99% odds.Amy as you can see by the previous posts there are those that just like in Vegas are will to roll those $8,000 dice and believe they can never come up with snake eyes.
This is precisely the reason why VW does not extend the warranty, why should they?
I know that Amy's case is very different and sounds like both VW and the dealer were trying to get by with the least amount of work they thought necessay. It is obvious that when someone has a failure, they need to watch everything done by VW/dealer extremely closely and not rest until the car is completely fixed.
darrelld
Veteran Member
If the odds are that low what possible reason would VW have for not extending the warranty like Ford and BMW have done for their customers?
Amy,
My thought was that since the diesel HPFP is failing on the new design, how difficult would it be for Bosch, not VW, to address the issue and be done with the customer fear? Sleeving the existing pump was just a thought that it may not even take an entirely new pump to resolve the problem, based on some of the excellent research posted on this site. It might even avoid a complete retooling cost.
Warranty extension could handle the vehicles already sold, again with Bosch helping their vendors out with replacement costs. Bosch probably has a good idea by now of what causes the failure. They'll have to address this if they want to continue to sell diesel HPFP's. If they don't, another vendor will likely step up. I think the Delphi HPFP might have been VW's warning shot across Bosch's bow.
Since this is a Bosch engineering issue, not VW, Ford, GM or Chrysler, they have more to lose than VW does by waiting too long for an acknowledged solution. In the meantime, I concur with what was recently posted here - I won't be considering any diesel vehicle with a CP4.x pump in it. That's a shame, because the new CR TDI's are really nice vehicles.
My thought was that since the diesel HPFP is failing on the new design, how difficult would it be for Bosch, not VW, to address the issue and be done with the customer fear? Sleeving the existing pump was just a thought that it may not even take an entirely new pump to resolve the problem, based on some of the excellent research posted on this site. It might even avoid a complete retooling cost.
Warranty extension could handle the vehicles already sold, again with Bosch helping their vendors out with replacement costs. Bosch probably has a good idea by now of what causes the failure. They'll have to address this if they want to continue to sell diesel HPFP's. If they don't, another vendor will likely step up. I think the Delphi HPFP might have been VW's warning shot across Bosch's bow.
Since this is a Bosch engineering issue, not VW, Ford, GM or Chrysler, they have more to lose than VW does by waiting too long for an acknowledged solution. In the meantime, I concur with what was recently posted here - I won't be considering any diesel vehicle with a CP4.x pump in it. That's a shame, because the new CR TDI's are really nice vehicles.
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kjclow
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2003
- Location
- Charlotte, NC
- TDI
- 2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I wish I knew!
pinkertonfloyd
Veteran Member
All I know is that the Diesel is being sourced from FIAT.... which makes me go hmmmmmmm...
the fiat multijet diesel motor is one of the best diesel motor out there, it won several recognition and it is used in a lot of car (my dad has a Punto 1.3 multijet diesel with almost 200,000km and not a problem). if i remember correctly the mini diesel use the multikjet
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