TB tensioner failed, belt jumped 2 teeth at crank

tedharbour

Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI PD
I have an 04 jetta (BEW). I was on freeway when TB tensioner broke. It was installed by me with a kit from a reputable company just over 50k miles ago. I checked the timing with a pin in the Cam sprocket and the TB is off by two teeth at the crank. I found a piece of the tensioner behind the lower TB cover.

Is it certain that i tagged the exhaust valves if I was in 5th gear going about 70mph when it happened? Is it best that I take the head off and check the carbon on the pistons to get a definitive answer to that question, or will the lifters tell the whole story?

Sorry if this is the wrong area for this post. I've been a member for years but have never posted before.

Thanks in advance for any help!
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
Did the engine stall?

Two teeth? more than likely you hit valves. Best way to check is to remove the valve cover and inspect the tops of the lifters with a bright light. Hit valves almost always cause spider-cracking on the lifter tops.
 

Carlos_TJ

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Location
Tijuana Mexico
TDI
2009 Bora (BXE PD)
I would go further and have the head removed and inspected. Worse case is spending on a new head gasket and tty bolts but with the peace of mind of not having a time bomb in the form of a dropped valve down the road....

Mis dos centavos...
 

chz17

Veteran Member
Joined
May 25, 2013
Location
Boston, Mass.
TDI
2002 jetta TDI GL 5spd, 2004 jetta TDI PD
I have an 04 jetta (BEW). I was on freeway when TB tensioner broke. It was installed by me with a kit from a reputable company just over 50k miles ago. I checked the timing with a pin in the Cam sprocket and the TB is off by two teeth at the crank. I found a piece of the tensioner behind the lower TB cover.

Is it certain that i tagged the exhaust valves if I was in 5th gear going about 70mph when it happened? Is it best that I take the head off and check the carbon on the pistons to get a definitive answer to that question, or will the lifters tell the whole story?

Sorry if this is the wrong area for this post. I've been a member for years but have never posted before.

Thanks in advance for any help!
So the tensioner back side tab broken and bell loss tension? You may take off the head cover off to check the camshaft followers have any crack. If no you probably dodge the bullet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
 

jettawreck

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Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
Wouldn't matter how fast you were goin, valve contact at any rpm will destroy the lifters and compress the valve stems.
(Edit: Franko6 made the statement that speed does/can matter, at least to the extent of rod bending damage. His comments and advice are certainly from vast experience and knowledge in TDI repair. I'm a former satisfied customer on the project car from years ago. Engine still running fine.)
Remove valve cover (even better the cam also) and inspect the lifters/followers VERY carefully for the spider web type cracks. Exhausts are usually the first to join the party.
Two teeth at the crank would be equal to four on the cam, correct? Checked the timing with a pin (?) in the cam sprocket??
 
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Powder Hound

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Oct 25, 1999
Location
Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
Two teeth at the crank would be equal to four on the cam, correct?
No, 2 teeth at the crank means 2 teeth at the cam, just the angle of movement is twice as far at the crank than at the cam. The problem is whether the valves were open sufficient to hit the pistons.

Call Franko6 and get his advice. If the head needs inspection, then pull it and send it off to him. The shipping isn't that bad.

The real evidence for impact will be witness marks on the pistons. If you have a super duper bore scope for inserting in a glow plug or injection port and looking in one or more cylinders, you might not need to pull the head.

Otherwise, for guaranteed peace of mind, pull the head. You'll need the parts as mentioned above, but if you pull the head and see marks, send the head off to Franko6 and have him check and replace any bent parts, freshen other stuff if needed (e.g. valve guides and stem seals) and then reassemble the engine with a like-new head.

Cheers and good luck,

PH
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
What piece did you find?

And no offense meant but has to be asked. What direction did you wind up the spring?
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I agree with Carlos. There is nothing like being naive and having a slightly bent valve drop and grenade your pistons, cylinder head and block. Particularly, the exhaust valves are inconel heads attached to Chrome-Moly stems. A contact hit will crack at the weld point of the dissimilar metals and make a relatively undetectable crack. It will announce itself when the valve head FALLS OFF!

You can remove the cam from the cylinder head for the best look at your lifters. Windex says a bright light, but an incidental hit will make very small fractures and they can be difficult to see. If cracks are overlooked, the top of the lifter eventually falls off. It makes a mess of the lifter bore, causes additional valve/ piston contact.

I would not trust just peeking under the cam. This is the rule. If I can't do it, with the thousands of cylinder heads I have done, neither can you. Take the cam off and one-by-one, remove the cam followers, wiped them clean and inspected with a magnifying glass. If the lifters are PERFECT, go buy a lottery ticket, you lucky son-of-a-gun!

BUT... in these situations, we will not trust the timing belt. It and, of course, the tensioner MUST be replaced. We have seen the stud fracture from such an incident as this. You could fix all and repeat the incident with a bad tensioner stud! Don't risk it with a $2.50 part.

I disagree with jettawreck. It does matter how fast you are going. We have never seen a connecting rod bend if the engine was 'loping along', say 35mph or light cruising. But at highway speeds of 70mph, it would be very likely to bend rods. It's the 'straw driven into a tree' in a tornado scenario. I don't exactly know why, but the valves will hit the pistons and instead of the only the valve bending, the energy is transferred to the rod. Rarely do I see a high-speed hit where the rod is not bent.

PH, the crank rotates 2x for the cam rotating 1x.

Pull the cam shaft out. Inspect the cam followers. Any follower that is cracked or dented down is reason to pull the cylinder head.

If cam followers are dented down, the cylinder head must come off and the piston projection must be measured. Any piston properly measured, that is .005" lower than it's mates is excessive and shows that the rod is bent. Pay particular attention the piston under the most damaged cam followers. It sounds daunting to replace rods, but honestly, it is only about 3-4 hrs and roughly $150-$200 added to the project and it cannot be ignored.

Unfortunately, we are seeing some good fakes for the timing belt tensioners. The dead giveaway is a bearing without any manufacturer stamp on the seal or race. I hope you didn't get one of those.

If you need any additional help, feel free to email or call.
 
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jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Check your inner cover to make sure the metal is still present that surrounds the hole that locates the tensioner spring. If missing that could be a possible cause of your tensioner failure(by movement and loss of tension)
 

jokila

Vendor
Joined
Dec 3, 2004
Location
Houston, Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS, Manual
Check your inner cover to make sure the metal is still present that surrounds the hole that locates the tensioner spring. If missing that could be a possible cause of your tensioner failure(by movement and loss of tension)
I know that people are missing this square ring and have no ill effects. When you tighten the tensionser the tab would end up pushing against the plastic edge and go no further. I do not think it bears into the tension after that as the nut holds the tensioner.
 

jmodge

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Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
I know that people are missing this square ring and have no ill effects. When you tighten the tensionser the tab would end up pushing against the plastic edge and go no further. I do not think it bears into the tension after that as the nut holds the tensioner.
Not positive myself, I’ve got an ALH on a stand, I will be in the garage this afternoon and check it out and report back what I see. I think it does though, when the tensioner is rotated on the cam
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
At any rate, if the issue started there it would leave a mark
 

KLXD

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Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
The tab takes no load once the nut is tightened but the missing metal insert in the plastic would let the tensioner rotate a bit more before the tab hits and loads the spring.

Enough to matter? I doubt it.
 

jmodge

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Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
The tab is against the side of the square hole that one would expect after rotating the tensioner clockwise on the cam. I can’t move the tab. I don’t want to release the tensioner because there is no flywheel on the engine to locate TDC with. Irrelevant to OP’s question, so it will be another day I look further as I am in the middle of a project
 

jmodge

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Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
The tab takes no load once the nut is tightened but the missing metal insert in the plastic would let the tensioner rotate a bit more before the tab hits and loads the spring.

Enough to matter? I doubt it.
That crossed my mind about tightening the tensioner bolt, I think it would still have whatever tension was originally applied, but agreed if the nut stayed tight, it should be OK. And if the nut came loose, the tension would just release. So, it is unlikely that tab would tear into that plastic, other than during the process of setting tension
 

tedharbour

Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI PD
Thank you for all the feedback. I decided to remove the head to check the carbon on the top of the pistons. Finally got the EGR cooler removed, which was a royal PITA. Intake and Exhaust manifolds not too bad. Hopefully tomorrow I have some definitive answer to report.

I will post pictures of the tensioner and the broken piece. I followed the instructions very carefully when I installed the kit, but it was five years ago.

I bought the kit from Bora Parts with a new cam. I checked it today and the lobes look good from what I could see. Will know more tomorrow.

Thanks again!
 

tedharbour

Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI PD
The engine stalled when I got to the off ramp. Lost some power initially...but died on the ramp when I got off the throttle completely.
 

tedharbour

Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI PD
Removed cam and lifters last night. Wiped the lifters off and took a quick look with a bright light and did not see any cracks. I will look at each one carefully under a microscope before I decide whether or not to go further.

Is the lifter face the weakest link in this case? In other words, will there always be cracks found on the lifter before a valve, valve seat or connecting rod gets damaged?

If these all look good with no cracks or protrusions, is it time to get the lottery ticket FRANK06 mentioned, or just keep going with the cylinder head removal to be extra safe.

(It has 212,000 miles. I performed the crayonectomy many moons ago, just fixed the blend door a week before the tensioner broke, got the AC working good, removed a lot of the soft touch paint, but still need to get the headliner off the top of my head.)
 

KLXD

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Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I don't suppose you noticed which way the things slipped.

One would expect the the cam to be retarded since it's being driven and if so it's hard to believe no damage was done since I didn't think there was 2 CAM sprocket teeth worth of clearance and you were off twice that.

I wonders if it's possible for it to have slipped the other way and to have advanced. Dunno if there would be more room for the intake valves.
 

tedharbour

Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2018
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2004 Jetta TDI PD
the cam was two teeth retarded, which is about 32 degrees oF rotation at the crank or 16 degrees at the cam.

I see no cracks, but may try dye penentrant. HaS anyone measured p to v with the cam retarded this far?

Next step is to pull the head. I'm almost there anyhow. I just thought there would more evidence on the exhaust followers.
 
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