Removing the Turbo - Polo 2DR 2006 1.9TDI

Tdijarhead said:

All four at 400 is good.

The crap you found was that blocking the oil line or the intake?

Have you talked to the turbo place yet? Did the guy there have any input?

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Yes spoke to john, he said while the small amount of damage to the fins isn't going to help the turbo, it's not the cause of the problem. His experience tells him that if it's turbo oil burning, it happens when the turbo is hot and all the symptoms I have aren't turbo related, well not directly.

I also swabbed the inlet manifold and there's no oil in there, so the smoke is definitely being produced iin the combustion chamber.

I've upgraded some of the vac lines just in case but now everything's pointing me straight at the Pumpe deuse and injector system. It very much seems like it's over fueling/bad combustion and diesel problem. Now reading up on the Pumpe Deuse system, never realised it was a weird and wonderfully VW innovation...

Seriously the stuff I learn whenever a VW fails is mind boggling. My GTI did weird things too and it took me a complete self understanding of the engine before I got it sorted... so here we go again!

If you keep posting you’re progress on this I’m going to learn some stuff too. Just out of curiosity what is your torsion set at?

Tdijarhead said:

If you keep posting you’re progress on this I’m going to learn some stuff too. Just out of curiosity what is your torsion set at?

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What do you mean torsion?? On the Turbo?

I've just spoked to a German Auto mech and he thinks the car is definitely over fueling OR it's lacking air and it's unburnt diesel. I need to get my arm around the intercooler to check for leaks there too.

I've called VW to get an idea how much it's going to cost to solve the problem, the vac lines havent helped, at least I know they are good. The only thing I can think of in my realm of competence is get under the car and have a look to see if anything is happening with the VNT system. Maybe the N75? is causing vacuum failures, as there's no sensor on the turbo as such. It's quite a dumb system from what I can see, a MAF and a EGR.

Others have suggested disconnecting the EGR, so I'm going to try that too and I'm going to spray some contact cleaner on the injector connections.

Maybe the EGR is closing the flap and choking. I assume if the cylinder does combust and it's over fuel, then it's black. But if there's no air, then it's grey.


I'm at a loss as to why she's hesitating, it's not oil, I don't think it's a lack of boost with the slight damage on the impeller either.

If the torsion is off that can cause a slight hesitation and overfueling. However what your describing sound more than the torsion being off, but since you have vcds you can check and adjust as necessary.

Some “light” reading.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=336279&highlight=problem+setting+torsion


Here’s a tutorial complete with a you tube vid.

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/c...lue-adjustment-on-vw-and-audi-pd-tdi-engines/

Thanks mate, I watched the video on myturbodiesel.. I'm going to check group 4 at some point... I'm a little disheartened at the moment and it's easter.. so might as well chill and think a little more about what might be the cause.. tired of grease everywhere too

Lots of time a failed turbo will send metal chunks out the boost side and punch holes in the boost hose attached to the turbo.

Are there any DTCs? Is the engine running OK aside from just a lot of smoke, or is it really down on power? A stutter or hesitation?

The engine should run perfectly fine, albeit slow, with no boost at all.

Sorry just tuning in to this thread.

oilhammer said:

Lots of time a failed turbo will send metal chunks out the boost side and punch holes in the boost hose attached to the turbo.
Are there any DTCs? Is the engine running OK aside from just a lot of smoke, or is it really down on power? A stutter or hesitation?
The engine should run perfectly fine, albeit slow, with no boost at all.
Sorry just tuning in to this thread.

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Welcome to the joys and glory, slumps and failures...

I just hooked up the VCDS, I disconnected the vac line from the EGR but left the wiring harness on the flap.. it didnt seem to hesitate but did the same old smoke the whole suburb with dense grey/white sulfur smelling smoke.

I noticed the MAF was reporting higher values than spec, but when I reconnected the vacuum hose it returned to spec.

So I went out again (down the road 300 yards slight hill), no smoke turned at the roundabout, got into 3rd gear and good torque pulling and gave it the gas, completely smoked out the street if not the suburb. If I had a video we'd be charged for heating up the atmosphere... (Im trying to keep a happy tone, it's actually eating away at me apart from the laugh thinking about a walker holding his nose across the street.

I'm still smelling the sulfur wafting in the neighbourhood. It's the first time I've really noticed it this bad!

Will get the Logs off VCDS now... Thanks for watching the Funniest PD TDI show!

here's a log of reconnecting the EGR vac and heading down the road... Do the MAF Values seem to be high as I'm coming up the road?!?!?

http://framepoet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/LOG-01-011-003-004.pdf
Sorry, printed the wrong one above...

Here's the one driving with EGR VAC connected.

http://framepoet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/LOG-01-008-004-003.pdf

While on the subject of Pumpe Duse...

Handy document to have.

http://framepoet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/VW_TDI_with_PumpeDuse.pdf

Found this...

Fri 20 May 2011 09:53 VW Passat 2.0 TDI Sport - VW Passat 06 Injector Fault, no joy with VW, help! - TLRogue
Hi, the reason your car cuts out is actually a safety feature believe it or not. The piezo injector uses low voltage to excite piezo crystals within the injector. However it uses a 12v pulse to open the injector, then another 12v pulse to close them.

If the injector or any wiring fails between these pulses, the the injector will stay open and will continue to inject fuel, filling the cylinder and potentially causing serious engine damage.


Will go and check the injector loom and log VCDS measuring block 13

I tried everything everyone asked and then resorted to trying something based on simple AIR / FUEL principle and disconnected the connector on the EGR flap. NO SMOKE... so the fault seems to be no air to inlet manifold causing non combustion that must recirculate back into the system. It's the first time I've been able to drive on the road it without smoking the whole neighbourhood. Now to work out *** is going wrong... whether it's just the flap or whether the new turbo and the EGR aren't happy or misconfigured... not really sure but totally relieved I'm made some progress without blowing up the engine

Is the EGR cooler leaking?

oilhammer said:

Is the EGR cooler leaking?

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I've thought of that but there are no signs of coolant loss. With the no smoke condition I can at least drive it for a longer run and determine what's really gone wrong.

The Borg Warner Turbo was a BV39A, the original was a BV39A 0019 and I've no idea what the difference may be. I'm not sure if theres a difference in the Vac actuation or whether the 0019 is simple the positioning of the boost pipe. Because other versions with different suffixes have the pressure boost outlet rotated. Im assuming the vacuum actuation is factory set to a standard.

As for the flap, the 2nd spreadsheet has the EGR settings on it so I might do some more logging without the flap connected. I hope I don't cause a lean state in the engine, I'm sure temps will rise, so it's crossed fingers.

At least now I can drive the car to a service dept. I did disconnect and reconnect the Fuel injector connection, but I'd done that many times before and it's clean as a whistle, always was.

Really seems like the EGR flap shuts under load, forces engine into a rich state and then recirculates the unburnt gases causing an even richer state and it snow balls

Thanks for the support Will keep posting to let others know as the TDI forum is highly ranked and I really dislike open ended issues on the web, so many of them it drives me nuts.

ASKING Quesiton's forces an obligation to GIVE Answers!

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I've been thinking and have a suspect feeling that maybe the EGR valve is stuck as well, when I cleaned it I couldn't really open it up, not knowing enough, I settled for just a cleanup not thinking much about it.

Now that I know the issue lies somewhere in the EGR system I think it best to remove the intake manifold and have a better look at the valve itself.

I've still been following your thread. It looks like on your AXR engine you have an ALH or similar intake. The entire intake can get crusty depending on the sulphur content of your fuel over there.

That little butterfly valve should move and if you have a mity vac you could also check to see if it holds vacuum, it should and the vacuum should also move the vertical rod. if it wont hold vacuum you might be able to find one in a junkyard, I think you call them breakers.

Tdijarhead said:

I've still been following your thread. It looks like on your AXR engine you have an ALH or similar intake. The entire intake can get crusty depending on the sulphur content of your fuel over there.

That little butterfly valve should move and if you have a mity vac you could also check to see if it holds vacuum, it should and the vacuum should also move the vertical rod. if it wont hold vacuum you might be able to find one in a junkyard, I think you call them breakers.

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Thanks Jarhead... While I was cleaning the EGR I coudn't really open the valve. maybe it's stuck closed. Does it need a vacuum to allow it opened?

One other thought came to mind, the gaskets for the EGR system, one might be more constricting than the other to create a pressure difference. Was watching this video - https://youtu.be/g2XvVL64hl8 which highlights the need for exhaust pressure to exceed the charge pressure from the turbo.

I'm perhaps over thinking the issue, I'm still uncertain whether the EGR is sticking open or sticking closed from the image below it looks closed. I'm assuming it's stuck closed and the EGR flap thinks there's additional EGR gas, this then creates a very rich fuel to "GAS" both air and EGR.



Getting myself motivated to remove the intake manifold, feeling like I'm now making headway but want to be in a good mindset to deal with those evil clips!

Well, I took the intake off, cleaned the EGR, pushed on it and it opened, took a fair push... Cleaned everything, put it back, it ran two good laps and then, back to rich smoke condition 　 I think I should test the MAP now, what if it's reporting more pressure than Im actually getting, it would assume overfueling.
With the servo flap connected I'm getting what seems to be rich hesitation, with disconnected it doesn't hesitate. The EGR Vac line is still connected but my theory's running thin on merit now.

EGR Clean


EGR Really clean


Work desk is filthy and clamp to open the seat of the EGR


But throttle is clean


IT"S CLEAN!!

No splits in the intercooler pipe, nothing untoward other than someone's chewed up the connector.



Checked for leaks and had a good soapy bath...



Wasn't me!! Who dun dis to my car??


Looks happy.. Can they be deceiving?


So BEEN there .. DONE that too!

Obviously been removed, still looks like original markings though, maybe the previous owner was having problems and tried to clean it. If someone had it off and tried to clean it, there is somewhat limited success cleaning those type of parts.

That has got to be the cleanest intake I’ve seen outside of a new one. Good job.


I believe under out put tests in vcds you can test both your egr and map.

We bought the car new, it had an accident that side, likely chance it was panel beater or the last turbo change. This evening we fired up on the stand and saw the actuator move quite a lot on the turbo at idle. I also shimmed the rubber rings at the turbo and throttle body to get a tighter fit and when Luke gave it a squirt, the soft hose at the throttle body definitely swelled with boost, so the turbo's working.

I haven't given the MAF a squirt with cleaner yet, Im waiting on spline bits to arrive in the next week just in case the injectors have to be pulled. I think I've covered most everything other than setting up the actuator with a vac guage and inspecting the Vac solenoid system. It's the multi port one.

Im a little perplexed by the data... but haven't come to any conclusion as yet... This isn't a good log to go by but will share it anyway.




NOTE: In this chart, the ACTUAL MAP and SPECIFIED MAP are almost identical, not in my case though. This may have been a log parked though.

Tdijarhead said:

Obviously been removed, still looks like original markings though, maybe the previous owner was having problems and tried to clean it. If someone had it off and tried to clean it, there is somewhat limited success cleaning those type of parts.

That has got to be the cleanest intake I’ve seen outside of a new one. Good job.

I believe under out put tests in vcds you can test both your egr and map.

Click to expand...

Im using freeware VCDS light, if it get to the point where I need specific test that can't be found logging data, then I may have to fork out the 200 USD

Didn't smoke, but still hesitates... better boost results actually over 2bar, I thought supposed to be max.

Seeing more reasonable data and correlation between specified and actuals with no major deviations... but of course I'm sceptical.. we'll see!

Full Log
http://framepoet.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/LOG-01-011-003-001.pdf

MAF


MAP

What did you torsion setting turn out to be?

Tdijarhead said:

What did you torsion setting turn out to be?

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It's 0 - +/- .6, it's normal and I'd say spot on actually!

I've got a feeling I need to set my actuator on the Turbo... Im achieving 2.5 bar when I should only be at 2... AND... The actuator moves at idle and Im not sure that's correct or not

My son and I went for a 30 minute drive and there's no smoke. It still hesitates but I have a feeling it's a turbo issue, Mityvac is definitely on the cards. The only real changes since the last overfueling episode was that I removed intercooler, cleaned the MAP with brake cleaner and cleaned the intercooler. I also tweaked the rubber seals to get a tighter fit on the clipped ducting. There were traces of black smoke, which I don't have a problem with as a diesel. There's definitely a smell of burning oil now, but it's in the rear exhaust and that's not a problem either.

We encountered a distinct noise, a spinning crunch, it could be the duct it hitting the altenator as we removed to top ducts from the intercooler, that's the better of the theories but considering both my son and I are SUPER paranoid by now, we're still at code RED even though we drove for 30-40 minutes without hiccup

I'm still none the wiser, it could have been the MAP sensor and I'm glad we cleaned the intercooler, impeller shrapnel was impressive. Not too much oil, just a little.

The turbo lag might be the cause of hesitation, the logs show and under and over boost state in the SPECIFIED and ACTUAL logs. It's why I really want to check the actuator settings before I conclude this thread.

For now, we're still not 100% confident in the engine, the turbo or the N75 and it's simply a matter of where to invest $$ wisely to get the Polo back to health...

Things to consider:

New Fuel filter
New Air Filter
MityVac
Register VCDS lite or register VCDS Full
Drivers window decided it doesnt want to open

Get on with heater matrix, waiting on Spline drivers to remove the seats to work on Matrix (Winter is coming and it's dangerous driving with a foggy window) - Would also allow me to remove the injectors if I have/had to.

It's been a VW experience, VERY WEARY experience indeed.... Would I, should I, could I have expected anything less!

A “weary experience “ is more or less a VW thing.

There is something called a “dog collar” that keeps that top seal connected properly where the hose plugs into the egr. However your egr is different than the ones out PD engines have here in the states. Yours looks like an ALH, BEW hybrid.

Cleaning the map and tweaking the seals is the most likely reason for less smoke but that’s just an 12k mile interweb guess.

Checking the actuator is a good idea , I would think it would have been set up correctly, but the turbo seller probably comes as close as possible and depends on the installer to fine tune it.

I was able to eliminate a very slight hesitation in my engine after a new timing belt by adjusting the torsion .5 or so. I think I would get everything else in tip top shape before doing that.

All that said think of all the fun you and your son have had. VW is responsible for that.

Tdijarhead said:

A “weary experience “ is more or less a VW thing.

There is something called a “dog collar” that keeps that top seal connected properly where the hose plugs into the egr. However your egr is different than the ones out PD engines have here in the states. Yours looks like an ALH, BEW hybrid.

Cleaning the map and tweaking the seals is the most likely reason for less smoke but that’s just an 12k mile interweb guess.

Checking the actuator is a good idea , I would think it would have been set up correctly, but the turbo seller probably comes as close as possible and depends on the installer to fine tune it.

I was able to eliminate a very slight hesitation in my engine after a new timing belt by adjusting the torsion .5 or so. I think I would get everything else in tip top shape before doing that.

All that said think of all the fun you and your son have had. VW is responsible for that.

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Im not sure if the turbo I have from Borg Warner is only used with the 1.9TDI, perhaps also used on the GTD...

I really need to check the old one, to understand how it "PUSHES" rather than "PULLS" the actuator. The BW pushes the actuator with vacuum and the one that came off the blown turbo seems fully extended and is very difficult to push inward. Which has me very confused... So Im wondering perhaps that's what failed. I'll go down the the workbench and have a good look at the hot side and try and get my head around the vanes. |

One would think, without vacuum, the actuator on the old turbo would be fully retracted... but it isn't... *scratching head*

So I'm sleeping on it, still waiting on the spline drives, will give me something else to do while I dwell over being almost there on the turbo install, but not quite!