NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

pleopard said:

Funny, VW used the wrong Passat image on page 2. That's the new Euro Passat.

Hmmm... looks like the also got the high-beam/low-beam labeling backwards...



Yeah, the CKRA certainly doesn't have a plastic intake manifold... not sure if there's a separate channel for EGR gasses.

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At least they warned you on Page 1 that the US version is different......

Hadn't you heard? All HPFPs were replaced with diamond-construction pumps free of charge last week. Problem solved.

- a bit peculiar the way this thread just suddenly went to sleep...

Does anyone know if the HPFP used in Europe are identical as the ones we get in NA?

It went to sleep because there's nothing new to discuss, and it's been going around in circles for 2100 posts.

As for the European vs. US pumps, on the Mk5/6 cars, they're different.

IIRC, the Passat's pump is the same as a pump on a car listed in the Euro market, but the Euro market in ETKA includes such places as Russia and India, so it could be for those markets.

- a bit peculiar the way this thread just suddenly went to sleep...

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I think people have lost hope, I know I have on EVER buying a CR.

Haven't lost hope but need something new to talk about.

kjclow said:

Haven't lost hope but need something new to talk about.

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How about CP3.2 conversions?

kjclow said:

Haven't lost hope but need something new to talk about.

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How about a 200,000 mile warranty against fuel system failure?

oxford_guy said:

How about a 200,000 mile warranty against fuel system failure?

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Sorry, but IMO even a 500,000 miles warranty wouldn't be enough.

As I've said before, no single failure should be cause for a $8,000 - $10,000 repair.

MPBsr said:

Sorry, but IMO even a 500,000 miles warranty wouldn't be enough.

As I've said before, no single failure should be cause for a $8,000 - $10,000 repair.

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My Lexus IS350 had a recall for defective valve springs. Valve spring would break and send the valve through the top of your piston, want to guess what it cost the hapless owners this happened too. Way more than $8000. Lexus/Toyota solution was to extend your warranty to 150,000 and if you still weren't satisfied you could get a $1500 discount off a new Lexus.

Thats why I now drive a VW and yes I knew about the risks associated with HPFP failures.

pleopard said:

Hadn't you heard? All HPFPs were replaced with diamond-construction pumps free of charge last week. Problem solved.

- a bit peculiar the way this thread just suddenly went to sleep...

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Because aside from this forum no one else is talking about it. All the car magazines are still in love with the CR VW diesel.......................as they should be. Time to move on........and find something else to ***** about.

darrelld said:

My Lexus IS350 had a recall for defective valve springs. Valve spring would break and send the valve through the top of your piston, want to guess what it cost the hapless owners this happened too. Way more than $8000. Lexus/Toyota solution was to extend your warranty to 150,000 and if you still weren't satisfied you could get a $1500 discount off a new Lexus.

Thats why I now drive a VW and yes I knew about the risks associated with HPFP failures.

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That also happened to my sisters Nissan Pathfiner, they got the new engine mod on it.

740GLE said:

That also happened to my sisters Nissan Pathfiner, they got the new engine mod on it.

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finder


I just had my 2001 Pathfinder in for a recall.It was for inspection on the front strut towers rusting out in states that use heavy road salt.My truck had just had some surface rust.When I was at the dealer I saw about 12 Pathfinders were they had a big hole in the strut towers on the drivers side.I guess why my truck was ok because, I would wash out the wheel wells when I wash the truck to get the salt off.

GTIDan said:

Because aside from this forum no one else is talking about it. All the car magazines are still in love with the CR VW diesel.......................as they should be. Time to move on........and find something else to ***** about.

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A car magazine can afford an $8000 fuel system failure.

Just spoke to the person in charge of VW Northern California warranty issues , ( at Steven Creeks VW)....

He said that our 3 year bumper to bumper warranty will cover the HPFP.....

but the 5 year /60.000 miles power train warranty only covers all parts that are lubricated with oil..... and thus does NOT cover the HPFP.

Of course, he said if the HPFP does break...it will send metal frags all over fuel system..and is a 10,000 job. HE says also that it is a misfueling issue. Water and biodiesel and poor fuel...

Wow..... blame it on the fuel. Next, they can blame it on the air, gravity, etc...

I am sad that VW will not stand behind their product. If mine even hints of breaking...i will contact NHSTA immediately and tell VW that it is a known issue...and go from there.

highender said:

Just spoke to the person in charge of VW Northern California warranty issues , ( at Steven Creeks VW)....

He said that our 3 year bumper to bumper warranty will cover the HPFP.....

but the 5 year /60.000 miles power train warranty only covers all parts that are lubricated with oil..... and thus does NOT cover the HPFP.

Of course, he said if the HPFP does break...it will send metal frags all over fuel system..and is a 10,000 job. HE says also that it is a misfueling issue. Water and biodiesel and poor fuel...

Wow..... blame it on the fuel. Next, they can blame it on the air, gravity, etc...

I am sad that VW will not stand behind their product. If mine even hints of breaking...i will contact NHSTA immediately and tell VW that it is a known issue...and go from there.

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I agree, they really need to at least acknowledge the existence of this issue. Sure, it may be an "infrequent" occurrence--1%, 2%, whatever; that's an acceptable failure rate for a power window regulator, maybe. Also, it's worth noting the inconsistencies in responses (from differerent dealers, regional reps, corporate, etc.) to the same question. I emailed "VW Cares" and asked explicitly if the hpfp was covered under the powertrain warranty, and if so, if it failed, was associated damage covered. The response I got was "The HPFP is considered part of the powertrain and falls under that warranty, and any collateral damage would be covered if it failed."

Better, but still not good enough--most of us bought into these cars to keep them a long time, or at least with the intent of a good resale value if not. If you can expect an $8 - $10K repair every 36 - 60K miles, what the hell good is it?

I really wish I had stumbled upon this forum before buying the car; I may have done so anyways, but at least I would have made an informed decision.

(rant ended; we now return to your scheduled programming)
Cheers,
~T

btw it could be argued that the HPFP *is* lubricated by oil--i.e., diesel.

Actually, it's not "all parts that are lubricated with oil" - in fact, one crankcase-oil lubricated part, the turbo, ISN'T covered.

specsalot said:

Interesting reply. I bought my MY2011 Golf in July. The manuals were misplaced so the dealer ordered and provided a new set of manuals. From my MY2011 model year warranty book:

"The Powertrain Limited Warranty covers an repair to correct a manufacturer's defect in material or workmanship for the following Volkswagon parts and components:
Engine: Cylinder block and all internal parts, cylinder head and all internal parts, valve train, spur belt, flywheel, oil pump, water pump, manifolds, all related seals and gaskets.
Transmission : Case and all internal parts, torque converter, all related seals and gaskets.
Drivetrain : Differential and all internal parts, drive shafts and constant velocity (CV) joints."

I see no specific references to the HPFP or any fuel system components in the text in the MY2011 5/60 Powertrain text above. Please let us know what your warranty manual states with respect to the HPFP.

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highender said:

I am sad that VW will not stand behind their product. If mine even hints of breaking...i will contact NHSTA immediately and tell VW that it is a known issue...and go from there.

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However, there does not appear to be "hint" of a failure. It either works or it blows up. Mileage at failure seems to be all over the place, so you couldn't make the blanket statement of "replace every 60k" or whatever mileage you want to throw in there.

Not all of these failures can be attributed to contaminated fuel or even perhaps low lubricity fuel or we should see some sort of population trends in the failures.

agree with all that you all said above.

Going to document the fuel that we put in from now on. I will save all receipts in anticipation of some excuse that there was misfueling.

I will go only to few top known dealers for fillups., from now on.

If they say it is the fuel, then VW can duke it out with the OIL companies.

;-) ;-)

bhtooefr said:

Actually, it's not "all parts that are lubricated with oil" - in fact, one crankcase-oil lubricated part, the turbo, ISN'T covered.

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sad to hear that even turbo is not covered ? what a rip...!

tico27464 said:

I agree, they really need to at least acknowledge the existence of this issue. Sure, it may be an "infrequent" occurrence--1%, 2%, whatever; that's an acceptable failure rate for a power window regulator, maybe. Also, it's worth noting the inconsistencies in responses (from differerent dealers, regional reps, corporate, etc.) to the same question. I emailed "VW Cares" and asked explicitly if the hpfp was covered under the powertrain warranty, and if so, if it failed, was associated damage covered. The response I got was "The HPFP is considered part of the powertrain and falls under that warranty, and any collateral damage would be covered if it failed."

Better, but still not good enough--most of us bought into these cars to keep them a long time, or at least with the intent of a good resale value if not. If you can expect an $8 - $10K repair every 36 - 60K miles, what the hell good is it?

I really wish I had stumbled upon this forum before buying the car; I may have done so anyways, but at least I would have made an informed decision.

(rant ended; we now return to your scheduled programming)
Cheers,
~T

btw it could be argued that the HPFP *is* lubricated by oil--i.e., diesel.

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agree with Tico... !

Technically, VW has claimed outside of the warranty statement that the HPFP is covered under powertrain.

However, if it came down to a lawsuit, VW would likely prevail if they didn't want to cover your HPFP or turbo, due to the language of their warranty statement.

My issue, and I think for all of us....is not weather the HPFP is under warranty per se. I think all of us have no problem with replacing tires, windshield wipers, even a fuse or solenoid here and there.

I think the law would look at if it is reasonable and customary to expect to buy a $23,000 vehicle, and expect to replace a very expensive fuel system within a few years , to the tune of $10,000. There is an inherent design flaw , in my opinion, since this is not what is reasonable nor customary.

A good example would be medicines: you take some meds , expecting some side effects like stomach issues, dry mouth, allergies, etc. But it is not reasonable to take a medicine and get cancer.

tico27464 said:

If you can expect an $8 - $10K repair every 36 - 60K miles, what the hell good is it?

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Good grief! You can't possibly believe this....

highender said:

I think the law would look at if it is reasonable and customary to expect to buy a $23,000 vehicle, and expect to replace a very expensive fuel system within a few years , to the tune of $10,000. There is an inherent design flaw , in my opinion, since this is not what is reasonable nor customary.

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You too??

You guys just need to sell your cars.

Tarbe said:

Good grief! You can't possibly believe this....

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Tarbe said:

You too??

You guys just need to sell your cars.

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Wait... when did HPFP failure become a conspiracy?

I met a guy who works for Bosch recently. I mentioned what was happening and he said "we don't like to talk about..." those words drifted off and he left to get to a meeting.

Everyone is way too stressed out over this, first of all the Euro design of the Fuel pump is nearly identical. There are obviously a few failures that happen, from contaminated fuel to maybe a bad pump. But with the take rate of the TDI at 80% in alot of places in Europe and this CR engine and pump in hundreds of markets, the design of the pump in itself with proper fuel is NOT faulty. If it were it would be failing at massive rates all over the world and this is NOT the case.


I can point you to someone in the USA who already has nearly 200,000 miles on his 09 CR with NOT one problem with the HPFP. This is obviously a fuel quality issue. Vw and bosch have repeatedly stated that contaminated fuel will cause premature wear/catastrophic failure. And I'm sure that is the case in the "MAJORITY" of cases.

Misfueling is a tiny % of the over all failures.

Watch where you fill up, use only high quality diesel at places with high turnover and CHILL OUT. I live in canada and not too far from here a small gas station pumped gasoline into their diesel pumps imagine what happened next? Chevy, BMW, VW, Mercedes, and ford dealerships were all scratching their heads as to why all these diesels were comming in at the same time.

Find a station you trust, fill up, hey stick a finger in it and smell it every now and then just relax.



I think if anyone should be getting chewed out and taken to court over this it should be the fuel suppliers not the manufacturers. If the suppliers can't provide the quality "EXPENSIVE" fuel that we pay for they should be held accountable. Everyone is sniffing up the wrong tree here and it's so obvious it's rediculous.

Vw is covering MOST HPFP failures in the US even WAY WAY out of warrenty. Trust me on this, and ya Chill out and enjoy the ride.

Except, in the US, there are states where it's literally impossible to get high quality diesel without exceeding the B5 limit, or getting drums of fuel shipped to you.

Whole states.

The design of the pump is incorrect for the United States, because the pump requires fuel that is far higher quality than the minimum standards for the US. It's a fine design for Canada, because Canada's fuel standards, at least in the lubricity category (the one that affects the pump) are harmonized with Europe's.

I also feel that the fuel filtration system is insufficient, due to the amount of allowed water and sediment in diesel fuel in the US, and how little enforcement there is of even that.

Yeah, blame the fuel suppliers all you want but Bosch and VW both knew the quality of our American fuel didn't meet the quality of fuel required for their pumps, and they ignored the fact that there would be problems.

It's obvious, if you look at NHTSA reports, questions, and time lines that VW contacted and worked with Delphi for design of that Delphi DFP6 HPFP for the 1.3 L TDI 2010 Polo in European Markets, as well as how Delphi markets the pump as being fail proof, compared to other brands.

http://delphi.com/news/pressReleases/pressReleases_2010/pr_2010_05_11_001/

"The design safely prevents the shoe on the DFP6 pump from lateral rotation which eliminates the risk of fatal pump damage and allows for a mass of just 2.4kg.

Obviously, VW had to be be working with Delphi at least a year or two in advance to come up with this design to market with a May 2010 date, which may put us at around May or June of 2008. VW knew, they had to know, as did Delphi, about defective designs in existence, they patented it, the square shoe follower. There would otherwise have been no reason to improve on the existing Bosch design. Bosch certainly can't patent a round bore hole design.