Joe_Meehan
Top Post Dawg
I wonder if it would have some of the expected additives that our engines need.
I wonder if it would have some of the expected additives that our engines need.
+1perhaps the most environmentally irresponsible post i have read during my entire life here at the club
burning ANY pcbs leads to the production of dioxins and furans; two of the most toxic substances known to man
if you have any moral fibre you will stop using this crap today, now, immediately
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_oil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_dibenzo-p-dioxins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_dibenzofurans
I concur. Use of this substance in ANY diesel engine is phenomenally stupid.Do diesel engines need:
Dielectric stability additives?
Arching and corona suppression additives?
Silicate additives?
Gassing additives? organic additives anthraquinone, benzophenone, and diphenyl
None of this stuff belongs in any fuel for a combustion engine. The allure of cheap fuel is clouding logic and reason.
This whole transformer oil as a diesel fuel thing is an extreme overreach. I'm this|close to adding transformer oil to the banned subject list.
Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.
[snip]
The new transformers use PCB free oil. Older transformers are flushed and the new oil is PCB free. BUT, there are thousands and thousands of old transformers out there that still have PCBs in them. The EPA made using PCB treated oils illegal in 1979, but that does not mean that overnight all the utilities went out and flushed or replaced its transformers. Replacing small transformers and flushing large ones is done on an as needed basis so there are still a lot of transformers out there with PCB treated oil.
[snip]
As an aside, if you have utility poles with transformers mounted up there, those are 'wet' transformers that do contain oil. If you live in a more modern subdivision with underground electric service and you have those green transformer boxes humming at the end of the block, those are 'dry' transformers. There is no oil inside those.
Only plant oils are used for biodiesel and SVO/WVO.
I hope this dispels some of the misinformation.
I can attest to there still being PCB-containing and PCB-contaminated transformers out there. I work for an electric company in Massachusetts. During the New England "Ice Storm of '08" I came across a broken pole with a three-base transformer bank down in the parking lot of an old restaurant. They were the large garbage can sized cans that were 3 or 4 feet tall. All three transformers had broken open and the oil was everywhere. I was able to get close enough to see that there were no labels stating "PCB-Free" or "<50PPM PCBs". Clean Harbors was called in. The customer's front yard and parking lot had to be dug up and replaced. These transformers were on a main feeder, along a very busy road, so it was hard to believe that they hadn't been replaced or at least decontaminated.Believe it or not, I still occasionally run across old PCB transformers in my project work now. Old oil fields that were electrified back in the 1940s - 1960s used lots of PCB type pole mounted transformers. Many have not been replaced or removed when wells went dry or were taken down and stored in a pipe yard.
One asset sale I worked on last year had a shed with scores of old transformers in it. The seller did not want to pay to have them sent to the Deer Park, TX incineration plant so the value of the asset was reduced to compensate for it.
There are still skeletons in the closet with respect to PCBs, but the numbers are dwindling.
Brian, thanks for the essay on the chemicals in PCBs (not my expertise).
As for dry transformers, the only ones I've ever seen are in the utility rooms of industrial customers that have 277/480V service or old delta services, where they need another transformer to get 120V for the offices. They look quite different from an ordinary pad mount.
I know the larger three-phase pad mounts are definitely oil filled, as I've reported several that I've found leaking over the years. I'll have to look more closely at our smaller single phase URD padmounts. I suppose it could vary from company to company.
I took your advice and googled it. Seems it's quite commonly used in diesel engines with success. The key is to know what the base oil is. Much of it is mineral oil (hydrocarbons). Some is even vegetable oil. Others are silicon based.Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.
you know when i came to this thread the first thing i thought was " those stability agents are so toxic that this could kill people" and yet the thread hasn't been closed with a sticky that says don't ever try it or post about it.
Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. What are your other concerns?What sort of maniacally idiotic standards are you using to define "success"?
Oh wait, let me guess: IT RUNS WITHOUT BREAKING THE ENGINE. AMAZING!
Thanks for leaving it open. I'd like to here some more legitimate reasons not to use it and not just assumptions. If the base fuel is mineral oil, that part isn't bad. What exactly are the problems related to the additives? Most will be consumed by the combustion process.There are still those out there that want to believe the misinformation. I'm going to leave the thread open for now so the pros & cons of this 'alternative fuel' can be properly vetted out. I think there are more details of how toxic non-PCB transformer oil is that need to be fleshed out.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2097444&postcount=7Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. What are your other concerns?
I did. Obviously there is an issue with PCB oils, but the discussion moved beyond that a while ago. You must have missed that part while you were typing your rants. We are now talking about non-PCB transformer oil.Did you seriously read this thread before you posted?
Do diesel engines need:
Dielectric stability additives?
Arching and corona suppression additives?
Silicate additives?
Gassing additives? organic additives anthraquinone, benzophenone, and diphenyl
None of this stuff belongs in any fuel for a combustion engine. The allure of cheap fuel is clouding logic and reason.
This whole transformer oil as a diesel fuel thing is an extreme overreach. I'm this|close to adding transformer oil to the banned subject list.
Stop and think, and even do some research to find out what your playing with. Google is your friend.
Yes, in special high temperature incinerators. The flame-retardant additives have to be heated to at least 2500F for a certain time period so they can break down and combust. Diesel engines cannot do this.Yep, using it for thousands and thousands of miles with no problems. What are your other concerns?
Somebody above asked how do they dispose of used (PCB-free) transformer oil? Anybody know?
Read my quote above. All the reasons mentioned in this thread are legitimate. The additives are very specialized to their intended purpose, which have nothing to do with being used as a fuel in any internal combustiuon engine.Thanks for leaving it open. I'd like to here some more legitimate reasons not to use it and not just assumptions. If the base fuel is mineral oil, that part isn't bad. What exactly are the problems related to the additives?
Geez, yeah. I imagine it might even be a little embarrassing bringing the subject up at all!I'm going to try to contact some people within my industry to get more information. This will take some time. I can just imagine the horror when I tell them why I am inquiring about burning used transformer oil in a diesel engine.
And you know this stuff is PCB-free? How? And whether it is silicon-based? I have some old oil-based paint I need to get rid of -- would you like to put that in your fuel tank too?I did. Obviously there is an issue with PCB oils, but the discussion moved beyond that a while ago. You must have missed that part while you were typing your rants. We are now talking about non-PCB transformer oil.
How about you delete your posts and contribute meaningful discussion.
You seem to have a habit of personally attacking me, but never supporting you position.b4black is always right. How dare you question His Kingly wisdom?!
Sorry, I'm just not seeing the danger here. It can be ingested without harmful effects, but burning it in an engine automatically makes it toxic? I realize we are now focusing in on the additives, but I'm not conviced that they will be bad, just because they weren't intended for diesel fuel. Most are organic and will be consumed by combustion. And they start out at ppm levels to begin with.
I'm not for or against this. Just trying to sort the facts from the opinion.
Bottom line is that we won't know for sure one way or the other without some serious emissions testing, which isn't going to happen.
Wait... have you been drinking this stuff? That might explain a lot!Sorry, I'm just not seeing the danger here. It can be ingested without harmful effects, but burning it in an engine automatically makes it toxic?
Well, it is mineral oil and mineral oil is a laxative. And laxatives are used by people who are full of.....Wait... have you been drinking this stuff? That might explain a lot!
You're not wrong there. This is the most half-witted idea I have ever seen on this forum.Well, it is mineral oil and mineral oil is a laxative. And laxatives are used by people who are full of.....
Reread the thread. Seems the EPA defines under 50ppm as 'safe', not me.define "safe"
the 50 ppm limit is strictly because of contamination of old transformers with pcb, they are refilled with "pcb free" but still contain toxic residues
this should not be used for fuel, period