Loose lugs on same corner x2

gforce1108 · Feb 15, 2019

First - I torque every single lug that I touch with a good torque wrench. All lugs snugged by hand, then torqued to spec (90ft-lbs) with the torque wrench in a star pattern, followed up with a full circle.
I've never - ever had lugs come loose until this car (my 30th VW). Twice now the left front wheel's lugs have come loose. Two sets of stock VW 15" wheels with look like original lugs (factory locking lug still). No vibrations felt or heard while driving straight or turns (until the come loose!).
The original set of wheels were highly oxidized and would stick to the hub - I thought maybe they hadn't seated fully when first installed. This current set of wheels are the originals with snows off of my 04 and slip right on without an issue.
I am going to swap out the lug bolts with a take off set and see. I bumped them up to 95ft-lbs last night. They came loose after only about 200miles of driving after these wheels were bolted on. I'll put 100 miles on today and I'll recheck this weekend.
I've had cars with stripped hubs and could feel them as I neared the torque spec - nothing like that here. No noticeable issues with the wheel bearing either. If the lugs were previously overtightened and stretched, I'd think they wouldn't thread in/out so smoothly.

drucifer · Feb 15, 2019

Have you moved the lugs to a different corner to see if it follows?

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Dhawk12 · Feb 15, 2019

I had a similar issue with my car. Drivers front wheel came loose after torquing to 90 ft/lbs and I noticed it when I went to check torque after 100 km. Turned out to be an issue with my brake rotor. The previous owner had broken the head off of the set screw on the rotor so that the only thing that was holding it on was the lugs. While that is not necessarily an issue, the lack of the set screw allowed a flake of rust or something to get behind the rotor so it wasn't quite seated correctly against the hub, even though the wheel was bolted tightly against the rotor.

I drilled out the set screw, cleaned behind the rotor (and the rotor mounting surface) and tapped a bigger hole and put another set screw in and the problem hasn't re-occurred since.

Nero Morg · Feb 15, 2019

Also, take a wire brush and clean up the oxidation off the rim and spindle. You'll thank yourself if you ever get a flat and can't get your wheel off

gforce1108 · Feb 15, 2019

drucifer said:
Have you moved the lugs to a different corner to see if it follows?
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I have not yet - I have at least 2 full sets from other cars that I can install, but your idea would be quicker.

Dhawk12 said:
I had a similar issue with my car. Drivers front wheel came loose after torquing to 90 ft/lbs and I noticed it when I went to check torque after 100 km. Turned out to be an issue with my brake rotor. The previous owner had broken the head off of the set screw on the rotor so that the only thing that was holding it on was the lugs. While that is not necessarily an issue, the lack of the set screw allowed a flake of rust or something to get behind the rotor so it wasn't quite seated correctly against the hub, even though the wheel was bolted tightly against the rotor.
I drilled out the set screw, cleaned behind the rotor (and the rotor mounting surface) and tapped a bigger hole and put another set screw in and the problem hasn't re-occurred since.

You know - you might be on to something... Both front rotors have broken screws. I have had to deal with them on several other MKIV cars and I didn't have any spares when I noticed them while swapping wheels. I'll grab some suitable screws right now to make sure I have them on hand for the next chance i have to replace them.

Genesis · Feb 15, 2019

The screw is immaterial.

HOWEVER, if there is corrosion on the hub or rotor surface where they mate when you torque the wheel down you're basically making a "sandwich", and if that corrosion shifts or smashes then you now have a loose lug (or two.)

Take the rotor off and wire-wheel both mating surfaces, and wire-wheel the surface on the rotor the wheel seats against -- I bet the problem disappears.

gforce1108 · Feb 15, 2019

Genesis said:
The screw is immaterial.

HOWEVER, if there is corrosion on the hub or rotor surface where they mate when you torque the wheel down you're basically making a "sandwich", and if that corrosion shifts or smashes then you now have a loose lug (or two.)

Take the rotor off and wire-wheel both mating surfaces, and wire-wheel the surface on the rotor the wheel seats against -- I bet the problem disappears.

Agreed on the need for the screw - that's why I didn't worry about it not being in there. Certainly makes it a pain getting a wheel lined up (I have the Audi "tool" somewhere). When I rebuilt the suspension, I did clean that mounting surface, but the wheel has been off many times since - thinking dirt/rust got behind the rotor. There is a slight pulsation in the brakes.

I'll find out soon!

Dhawk12 · Feb 15, 2019

gforce1108 said:
Agreed on the need for the screw - that's why I didn't worry about it not being in there. Certainly makes it a pain getting a wheel lined up (I have the Audi "tool" somewhere). When I rebuilt the suspension, I did clean that mounting surface, but the wheel has been off many times since - thinking dirt/rust got behind the rotor. There is a slight pulsation in the brakes.

I'll find out soon!

Yeah, the screw is very convenient, if nothing else, for lining up the holes, but having one does reduce the chance that the rotor separates from the hub when changing tires and allows something to get behind it, thereby causing my problem, if not yours. Granted that could also be solved by just making sure to thoroughly clean all mating surfaces when changing tires, including behind the rotor (especially if the screws have long since ceased to exist).

My experience is why I continue to re-check the torque on my tires after a set distance (100 km for me). Had I not done that, I wouldn't have noticed until vibrations started happening at highway speeds because the tire was coming off. 99% of the time, checking doesn't tighten the bolts further, but its that 1% where you get a half turn rotation on the lug, and you start asking whiskey tango foxtrot is going on.

gforce1108 · Feb 15, 2019

Dhawk12 said:
My experience is why I continue to re-check the torque on my tires after a set distance (100 km for me).

It's something I've never needed to do, but I will have to now. 30 years of wrenching on VWs and never had one loosen up. Fortunately, I notice every little nuance going on in the car

I'm getting this car (03 wagon 5sp) ready to sell and want to make sure it's 100%.

BobnOH · Feb 15, 2019

Naw, fix it. Something unusual is happening. Either the threads are very worn or damaged or there is some type crazy vibration, which I'd think you could feel. Guessing you've already checked for extreme heat.

gforce1108 · Feb 19, 2019

BobnOH said:
Naw, fix it. Something unusual is happening. Either the threads are very worn or damaged or there is some type crazy vibration, which I'd think you could feel. Guessing you've already checked for extreme heat.

Yes - I had a rear brake dragging (car sat for a while) - so I have felt each wheel after driving it. Nothing out of the ordinary.

I spent the weekend insulating the new garage so I didn't get anything done on this Jetta (started the 04 and moved it!!!).

mrfiat · Feb 19, 2019

I know that you said the torque wrench is good, but have you checked the calibration on it? I didn't know that you were supposed to check the calibration on your torque and I recently checked it and it was reading 30 ft/lbs too low. I have since bought a new wrench and checked the calibration on it and it is perfect. Just an idea.

gforce1108 · Feb 20, 2019

mrfiat said:
I know that you said the torque wrench is good, but have you checked the calibration on it? I didn't know that you were supposed to check the calibration on your torque and I recently checked it and it was reading 30 ft/lbs too low. I have since bought a new wrench and checked the calibration on it and it is perfect. Just an idea.

I haven't specifically checked it, but I have a good feel for the amount of force needed (since it's a 2' long bar, 45 lbs of pressure gives me 90 ft/lbs). I always unwind the wrench when not in use. But - I'll do a sanity check on it and compare it to my 3/8" drive torque wrench. Since I use this wrench for everything, I'd think I would run into problems with other lugs or critical fasteners. Only this wheel on this car.
The garage is covered with fiberglass at the moment

oilhammer · Feb 20, 2019

In your neck of the woods, I would think corrosion and rust and debris on the hub would be a chronic thing that needs addressing. That can cause a wheel to come loose, because you are just squeezing crunchy bits between the mating surfaces, and then vibration causes it to break up and fall out, and now the fasteners are loose.

I also do not like using torque wrenches on wheel bolts for this very reason. I use a torque stick on an impact. Because it limits how much maximum torque can be applied, but it also gives the rhythmic "jiggle" of the high frequency impact that helps to seat the bolts all the way down.

You can do something similar by taking a socket, and whacking it hard into the bolt with a hammer AFTER you've torqued them, to seat the wedge. Then torque it again. If it moves, even a little, more, then you know your initial torque was not correct due to incorrect seating of the components. BTW, this trick also helps to UNseat stuck wheel bolts.

Although thoroughly cleaning all surfaces, including UNDER the rotor hat if it came loose, as well as the threads and conical wedges of the bolts and wheels is a must too.

Every new guy (and there have been a LOT of new guys over the years) that I have worked next to started off with a torque wrench, only to have wheels coming loose eventually. They work great if everything is new/clean/perfect AND if they are kept calibrated. Take any of that away, and you could have a problem.

mrfiat · Feb 20, 2019

You can use a luggage scale to check your torque wrench. Youtube has the info on how to check it.

[486] · Feb 20, 2019

aluminum wheels right?
once the aluminum moves a little you'll never get them to hold torque again it seems, even if you crank them down to 140ft/lb. the aluminum is just fatigued and smushy
swap the spare on and the problem goes away I'd bet

gforce1108 · Feb 21, 2019

oilhammer said:
In your neck of the woods, I would think corrosion and rust and debris on the hub would be a chronic thing that needs addressing. That can cause a wheel to come loose, because you are just squeezing crunchy bits between the mating surfaces, and then vibration causes it to break up and fall out, and now the fasteners are loose.
I also do not like using torque wrenches on wheel bolts for this very reason. I use a torque stick on an impact. Because it limits how much maximum torque can be applied, but it also gives the rhythmic "jiggle" of the high frequency impact that helps to seat the bolts all the way down.
You can do something similar by taking a socket, and whacking it hard into the bolt with a hammer AFTER you've torqued them, to seat the wedge. Then torque it again. If it moves, even a little, more, then you know your initial torque was not correct due to incorrect seating of the components. BTW, this trick also helps to UNseat stuck wheel bolts.
Although thoroughly cleaning all surfaces, including UNDER the rotor hat if it came loose, as well as the threads and conical wedges of the bolts and wheels is a must too.
Every new guy (and there have been a LOT of new guys over the years) that I have worked next to started off with a torque wrench, only to have wheels coming loose eventually. They work great if everything is new/clean/perfect AND if they are kept calibrated. Take any of that away, and you could have a problem.

I might invest in some torque sticks, but I've had way too many problems with lugs on cars coming to me after having work done by a "professional" - either way too tight (like greatly exceeding 200 lt-lbs) or barely tight. I do work on the side as a hobby and to make a little extra cash - never had a loose lug using the torque wrench.
I had the front suspension completely apart when I did a full refresh. I did wirebrush the hubs and applied anti-seize where the wheel and hub meet. The old wheels were also corroded at the hub and bead (constant slow leaks) so I swapped on my 04 wheels with snows which have always had clean hubs. The old wheels were always stuck to the hubs. But - after having the wheels off again recently, the rotors did move due to the broken set screw - maybe some crud got in there.

mrfiat said:
You can use a luggage scale to check your torque wrench. Youtube has the info on how to check it.

I grabbed my 100ft-lb max 3/8" torque wrench and set it to 95 and it clicked off before turning any additional (I had set the 1/2" to 95 after the lugs loosened).

gforce1108 · Feb 21, 2019

[486] said:
aluminum wheels right?
once the aluminum moves a little you'll never get them to hold torque again it seems, even if you crank them down to 140ft/lb. the aluminum is just fatigued and smushy
swap the spare on and the problem goes away I'd bet

two sets of wheels - same corner (driver's front).

Loose lugs on same corner x2

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