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TDI Fuel Economy Discussions about increasing the fuel economy of your TDI engine. Non TDI related postings will be moved or removed.

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Old December 29th, 2002, 16:28   #1
dieselmeister
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Default Honda Common Rail TDI

Honda recently introduced a 2.2Liter Common Rail TDI for the European market only [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] . Given the superior quality, durability, and reliability of Honda Vehicles to their German counter-parts,(If you doubt my statement on the quality issue, just check consumer reports and see who consistently shows up #1....it's not any German manufacturer!) I would love to see a Honda TDI made availabe in the USA. While I love my 99 Jetta TDI as it turns the 103,000 mile mark, the electrical problems, inferior paint job, and other (be it small) quality issues, annoy me to death [img]images/icons/mad.gif[/img] and leave me longing for the over-all superior quality of a Honda or Toyota. Does any one hear what I'm saying? And has anyone heard any romours of Honda, Nissan, or toyota introducing a TDI for the US market?

Sincerely,

Dieselmeister [img]images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
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Old December 29th, 2002, 19:52   #2
oilhammer
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

Honda has used an outsourced diesel in some Euro-spec cars for years (I think Peugot). Hondas are not without their issues...I work on cars for a living, and while they are great cars, they are by no means perfect, and I really do not see many Hondas lasting hundreds of thousands of miles like I have seen countless German cars do. Plus, they rust out here in the Midwest quite quickly, Hondas have had main relay problems for years, have drive-axle problems (many do not make it past 80k miles), water pumps sometimes fail, the 2.2L Accord engines spit the oil seals right out of the front balance shaft, so much so that Honda had to come up with a retainer to keep them in. They have chronic EGR tube clogging problems, many burn mass quantities of oil, I have replaced a few window regulators in them, brake rotor warpage is very common, Accord auto-trans gear selector cables often sieze, some Accord auto-transmissions were garbage (early '90s), the CRVs have rear-differential problems (4WD models only), Civics blow head gaskets quite easily, almost every 3.2L Legend V6 has had head gaskets replaced, sometimes a few times, many distributors have disintegrated, failed ignitors were very common on Civics, the ball-joints in the control arms often sieze and break off without warning...if you don't believe ME, then ask any Honda specialist! They are good cars, but not as flawless as some may think. My 1991 Jetta, even after 300k miles, looks better, runs better, and has had far fewer things break than my sister's '90 Civic has in only 130k miles...and her car is full of holes! And now, Honda decided they would use Delco (GM) alternators on their V6 Accords [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif[/img] so if you have one of those, keep a tow truck's number on hand...
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Old December 29th, 2002, 20:39   #3
RabbitGTI
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

Quote:
other (be it small) quality issues, annoy me to death and leave me longing for the over-all superior quality of a Honda or Toyota.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, bull****. That bendy jap**** runs just fine for 70k, the it goes to hell. A pain in the ass to fix, tinny, handle like a rowboat, pure crap. My last Toyota hacked up starters like a cat tosses hairballs, clutch went, FI impossible to fix, brakes warped,....
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Old December 29th, 2002, 22:14   #4
GotDiesel?
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

RGTI... My '86 Accord was the most troublefree vehicle I ever owned. I also got exceptional duty from an '85 Tercel 4x4 wagon and a '91 Toyota Pickup...

My 2001 Jetta hasn't stranded me anywhere (nor did any of the cars listed above), but it has more annoying rattles than all three of the above combined.

PS My Accord looked brand new at 130K. All I had replaced were tires, plugs and lubricants and filters.
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Old December 31st, 2002, 01:51   #5
RogueTDI
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

Quote:
Does any one hear what I'm saying?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I certainly have NO @*!$*** idea what you are saying.

Quote:
oilhammer
Member # 7426 posted December 29, 2002 18:52
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Honda has used an outsourced diesel in some Euro-spec cars for years (I think Peugot). Hondas are not without their issues...I work on cars for a living, and while they are great cars, they are by no means perfect, and I really do not see many Hondas lasting hundreds of thousands of miles like I have seen countless German cars do. Plus, they rust out here in the Midwest quite quickly, Hondas have had main relay problems for years, have drive-axle problems (many do not make it past 80k miles), water pumps sometimes fail, the 2.2L Accord engines spit the oil seals right out of the front balance shaft, so much so that Honda had to come up with a retainer to keep them in. They have chronic EGR tube clogging problems, many burn mass quantities of oil, I have replaced a few window regulators in them, brake rotor warpage is very common, Accord auto-trans gear selector cables often sieze, some Accord auto-transmissions were garbage (early '90s), the CRVs have rear-differential problems (4WD models only), Civics blow head gaskets quite easily, almost every 3.2L Legend V6 has had head gaskets replaced, sometimes a few times, many distributors have disintegrated, failed ignitors were very common on Civics, the ball-joints in the control arms often sieze and break off without warning...if you don't believe ME, then ask any Honda specialist! They are good cars, but not as flawless as some may think. My 1991 Jetta, even after 300k miles, looks better, runs better, and has had far fewer things break than my sister's '90 Civic has in only 130k miles...and her car is full of holes! And now, Honda decided they would use Delco (GM) alternators on their V6 Accords so if you have one of those, keep a tow truck's number on hand...
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">In the Honda's defense, many of these problems could just be due to the typical Honda owner(hah!) [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Quote:
My 2001 Jetta hasn't stranded me anywhere (nor did any of the cars listed above), but it has more annoying rattles than all three of the above combined.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This obviously cannot be true. NO car made prior to 1991 is going to have less rattles than a new VW, or just about any new car for that matter.

I aint saying Japanese cars arent good. There have been several in my family, with no complaints. My mother drives a beat up late 70's Toyota pickup with plenty of miles on it and it still runs well.

Then again, she also owns an old 1980 Rabbit deisel that she DOES NOT MAINTAIN, nor has she very well for its life. The thing still runs, and she wont let it die, despite my admonishments.
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Old December 31st, 2002, 06:08   #6
Driv'n EZ
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

dieselmeister, there's enough angry red faces in your post to indicate that you have issue with other things in life beside the car.

If the car were the real problem, you could throw it away and buy a new one. What's your real concern?
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Old December 31st, 2002, 07:10   #7
NussWag
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

To speak from my own personal experience...I've had two Hondas a 1991 Accord (sold after 160K) and a 1996 Civic (sold after 150K). Both were fine cars except for the auto tranny. At about 130-140K I experienced funky shifting problems in both cars and had to replace the ECU and throttle body in the Civic at 120K.
Quote:
My 2001 Jetta hasn't stranded me anywhere (nor did any of the cars listed above), but it has more annoying rattles than all three of the above combined.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh BULL! My 1996 Civic rattled from the day it was born till the day I sold it. Both the Civic and the Accord had more motor and road-tire noise than the 03 Golf I am currently driving.

No auto maker makes a perfect car (anymore). I haven't had my Golf long enough to compare it to the Hondas on overall reliability.

Regarding your original question...the only problem I see is that Honda will be putting an engine designed to go 300+K into a car designed to last 180-200K.
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Old January 5th, 2003, 14:21   #8
weedeater
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

Quote:
NO car made prior to 1991 is going to have less rattles than a new VW, or just about any new car for that matter.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well, my '84 Volvo TD didn't have any rattles when I sold it last year. But, by then, everything that COULD rattle had fallen off! [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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Old January 5th, 2003, 15:17   #9
GoFaster
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

My experience of driving vehicles into the ground has been that Japanese cars are very good for the first approximately 200,000 km or 6 years, whichever comes first. After 200,000 km, mechanical maintenance costs will start going up, and some of 'em become oil burners. After around 6 years, corrosion will start eating away at the bodyshell (I live in the salt belt!). This will reduce its resale value FAST and at the same time, make it not worthwhile to do the more expensive repairs that will likely be required around this time. That's when I stop doing all but required maintenance, and drive it until the expected cost of keeping it on the road for another year exceeds what the car is worth.

'78 Civic, started running crappy around 5 years and 130,000 km; flattened at 12 years and 180,000 km.

'84 Toyota pickup; indestructible 22R 4 cylinder engine and gearbox, but biodegradable box made it not worth fixing clutch, fuel lines, automatic choke, rear brakes, and driveshaft center U-joint - sold at 10 years and 278,000 km.

'91 Toyota van; MAF sensor crapped out at 200,000 km (and you thought a VW MAF was expensive!!!), O2 sensor crapped around 180,000 km and I never fixed it because it was really expensive and made no difference to how it ran. Flex pipe broke at some point and required replacement along with the catalyst that was part of the same piece - $700 for the part. At around the 6 year mark, rust was making its presence felt. A/C beyond repair, $1500 exhaust manifold about to rot through, ball joints were shot, and it wasn't gonna pass Drive Clean, AND I hated driving it!!, so I traded it in when it was 9 years old and 288,000 km.

The VW is now at 290,000 km and 7 years, and shows no sign of major rust problems. I've had some grief with rear wheel bearings lately, and I know the A/C is gonna need work come springtime, but it is still running very well and is easily worth repairing. When a car gets old you are going to have to fix stuff. I'm still OK with this one, though.
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Old January 5th, 2003, 19:30   #10
GotDiesel?
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

Go Faster,

With regards to rust, you are exactly right. When I moved from Sacramento to Rochester, NY back in 1991, I was SHOCKED to see the rust on Accords of the same generation as the one I had owned. They ALL did it.

Note: My wife's A2 Jetta was developing rust too. It also needed new CV joints at 110K miles and had the legendary leaky heater core problem(replaced by VWOA).

I was shocked to see how badly the old RWD Volvos used to rust there as well.

I have heard (but don't know since I don't live there anymore) that the newer Hondas don't rust anymore due to double galvanized sheetmetal.

It will be interesting to see how the A4 holds together over the years. So far, I haven't had any MAF, window regulator or relay problems. Just rattles (lots of 'em) and creaky doors.

At the rate I'm going, it's going to take 10 years or so to get to 200K. By then, it will be my son's first car (I hope).
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Old January 6th, 2003, 01:20   #11
McBrew
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

I've found that most people's impression of their own car comes with little regard to actual performance or dependability. In other words, if you want to love your car, you will. If you want to hate it, you will.

My GF's 1999 Civic definitely has it's problems. At 20k miles, the paint started cracking. The dealership and Honda of America both say that's because of acid rain. The car is washed bi-weekly and waxed bi-monthly. Also, it needs spark plugs every 20-25k miles. I'm guessing it's just the plugs that Honda uses, but the dealership even removed the Bosch plugs I installed and put Honda ones back in. Didn't solve the mysterious problem, though. It suffers from infrequent lokk of power. Also it about as fun to drive as a shopping cart. It's bigger than my Golf, yet weighs 400lb less. Window seals fail, lots of wind noise. Not a bad car, just not as perfect as most Honda owners will have you believe.

Another story: A good friend of mine bought a 1990 Mercedes 240D when he turned 16. not a quick car, but comfy and reliable. Good looking, too. A few years later he bought a used Celica. It was fun to drive and sportier, but has lots of problems. He sold it and started driving the Benz again. A few years later be bought an Accord. He loved the Accord, even though it left him stranded many times. Starter, alternator, and other more mysterious problems. Got rid of it, drove the Benz. Recently, he bought a brand-new Toyota Tacoma 4x4. Last time he came over to my place, he was driving the Benz. The Tacoma was in the shop. I can't remember what the problem was. Well, he's 27 years old now. The Benz has had absolute minimal service. It has been the most reliable car he's owned. Heck, he's been driving it on and off for 11 years! And he absolutely hates it.

Back to the topic: Yes, I'd love to see lots of different brands of modern diesel cars in the USA. Honda, bring it on! Mercedes, bring 'em back! VW, keep it up! We clearly need more choices. And the general public needs to be more aware of the advantages of diesel engines. And we need to be using more Biodiesel. Nuff said.
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Old January 6th, 2003, 01:43   #12
Derrel H Green
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

Quote:
Originally posted by RogueTDI:

This obviously cannot be true. NO car made prior to 1991 is going to have less rattles than a new VW, or just about any new car for that matter.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">[img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

That blanket statement has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard! [img]images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

And you say that you are an engineer? [img]images/icons/frown.gif[/img]


[img]images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[ January 05, 2003, 14:16: Message edited by: WVWSP61 ]
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Old January 6th, 2003, 22:09   #13
gleep
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

I have no complaints about the build quality or the reliability of my Golf. I can't knock any Japanese cars for poor quality. From my own experience driving Hondas, Camry's,etc. is that they are not FUN to drive. They do everything quite nicely but BORING to drive. They have no soul.

My $.02.
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Old January 6th, 2003, 22:11   #14
gleep
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

double post!

[ January 06, 2003, 21:16: Message edited by: gleep86 ]
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Old January 12th, 2003, 11:54   #15
cars wanted
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Default Re: Honda Common Rail TDI

"Both the Civic and the Accord had more motor and road-tire noise than the 03 Golf I am currently driving" [img]images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] NussWag

Road-tire noise, certainly yes, but not engine noise. I drove a 1995 H*nd@ Civic Vx for a couple years. It seemed to have IMPRESSIVELY little engine noise, even at idle, when there was no road-tire noise to drown out the engine noise. All the more impressive when you consider that this particular Civic model has little or no sound-proofing material. Road-tire noise was even louder than in my 1982 diesel Rabbit.
By contrast, my 2000 Golf GLS-TDI seems to have very much less road-tire noise; so much less that I can hear the engine again. [img]images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
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