Diesel emission NOx with diesel and Bio-Diesel

redrocketTDI

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Had RED 2012 Golf TDI, HAD BLUE mkiv 2006 Golf TDI, Now White 2014 GOLF TDI
So after hearing this whole DieselGate BS.

My question is that what are the NOx reading with vehicle driven with nothing but pure diesel compared to one with bio-diesel.

As an ex-Mercedes Benz, Sprinter, Smart Technician. I know how harmful bio-diesel is to the engine and emission devices. Where I would like to see more independent test on vehicle readings on emission at the pipe. Since a vehicle on a rolling chassis will emit less NOx then one which is driving in a extra urban environment.

I seen how bad bio diesel can rust a fuel system and cause the engine to seize when oil is not replace every 4 to 5k.

I have seen the video from fast lane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhvI2oeBPtY

Which is feel like someone does not how a vehicle runs on a dyno. This testing is so wrong. Should have a five gas analyzer and need to disengage traction on twos. If anyone knows that engine power will reduce when traction is lost.
 

Lightflyer1

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Bio diesel does not cause an engine to rust. Water left in improperly made bio does. Bio is also not harmful to the engine, but can be to emissions equipment that is used/implemented as VW has done it by post injection.
 

redrocketTDI

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Had RED 2012 Golf TDI, HAD BLUE mkiv 2006 Golf TDI, Now White 2014 GOLF TDI
We has the bio diesel rusting the fuel system from the filler neck to the injectors. I have photos of bio diesel oil sludge the engine oil and seizing. MB would reject warranty claims and engine replacement with bio diesel found in the vehicle. We had a 2015 GL350 with om642 engine that had sludge which was very badly at 5,000 miles on the engine.
 
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MichaelB

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We has the bio diesel rusting the fuel system from the filler neck to the injectors. I have photos of bio diesel slugging the engine oil and seizing. MB would reject warranty claims and engine replacement with bio diesel found in the vehicle. We had a 2015 GL350 with om642 engine that slugged very badly at 5,000 miles on the engine.
Who is we? What is slugging?
 

Lightflyer1

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Bad bio with water left in it can do this (rust). As stated before bio in the oil is a function of post combustion injection emissions routines. If you have rust it is due to improperly made/processed bio and not the bio itself. I also have no idea what slugging is. Do you mean sludge? You might want to try proof reading your posts before posting so others can understand better what you mean. Any auto mfg would reject claims for 100% bio use that I know of. A 2015 MB with common rail and dpf shouldn't be burning 100% bio anyways. At least not any that isn't commercially produced using the newer processes. Here is an example and is available today in California. Newer cars require better fuel than the old method allows.

https://www.neste.com/na/en/customers/products/renewable-products/nexbtl-renewable-diesel

"NEXBTL (Next Generation Biomass to Liquid) is a renewable diesel product developed and patented by Neste Oil. It is not called biodiesel. Biodiesel refers to 'traditional' biofuel, and the chemical composition of such fuel is different from that of both fossil diesel and renewable diesel. Fuels manufactured from ester (FAME, Fatty Acid Methyl Ester), which is made from vegetable oil, are called biodiesels, and only NEXBTL is called renewable diesel."
 

Lightflyer1

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Would anyone be dumb enough to put veg oil into a 2015 MB? I guess there may be a few individuals out there. If someone did that it would be hard to believe they thought warranty would apply to anything engine related.
 

pkhoury

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Would anyone be dumb enough to put veg oil into a 2015 MB? I guess there may be a few individuals out there. If someone did that it would be hard to believe they thought warranty would apply to anything engine related.
I'm sure we'd still be surprised, given the things ANY n00b car owner has done or will do.

While changing out a bunch of stuff on my Golf, there was clear evidence of biodiesel - it was still clinging to bushings on things like shift cables or the dogbone mount, and my mechanic thinks it led to my tandem pump having a steady leak, among other things (it smells just like cooking oil).
 

ZippyNH

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Bad fuel is bad fuel...be it unwashed homebrew, or some bio from "a guy" ....
Commercial bio fuel meets specs....and does the same thing as the lube addatives that people add...many places sell 1-2% with ULSD to ensure lube...my local fuel dealer does when I buy fuel down in Massachusetts...
Some people are just stupid...bet some used oil from a turkey fryer might have gotten used...perhaps even in converted, or after watching a u-tube video on how to make bio DIESEL....
As far as emission's...
Yes, tests have been done...emissions are HIGHER in most cases, but seemed to vary based on the feedstock, but most studies say the net plus is from biodiesel since the differences are so low.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
Isn't NOx formed from nitrogen and oxygen in the air during high-temperature combustion?

If one fuel results in a lower combustion chamber temperature than the other, then less NOx will be formed at the lower temperature.

If the combustion chamber temperature is the same, I would think NOx formation will be equal between the two fuels.
 

redrocketTDI

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I work and live in Chicago. We had to have bio-diesel fuel samples sent to labs and had some with 60% bio in the fuel. The pumps say up to 20% but it is independent company that make the fuel and ship to mobil or shell. Which bio-diesel starts to gel at 5 degree Fahrenheit.
 

Lightflyer1

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Your problem, if you are correct is with the seller then. Selling fuel that doesn't meet spec is illegal. Turn them in and sue them for damages. The old method of producing biodiesel worked okay for the older model cars. Newer models will have to use better fuel that comes from GTL or BTL type processes. The Neste fuel being sold in California is of this type and matches petroleum diesel very closely, but has even better specs. It doesn't gel up like the older stuff and has very high cetane values as well. It is a much better fuel than the old types. You won't make it in your backyard shed though.
 

pkhoury

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Medina, TX
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I work and live in Chicago. We had to have bio-diesel fuel samples sent to labs and had some with 60% bio in the fuel. The pumps say up to 20% but it is independent company that make the fuel and ship to mobil or shell. Which bio-diesel starts to gel at 5 degree Fahrenheit.
That's crazy. In my travels between TX and CA (or even on my recent trip to the East Coast), I've seen pumps vary between "contains 5% bio/renewable diesel" or "up to 20%..."

It concerns me if this is more prevalent at other stations in other states, or if this was just an isolated problem.

Your problem, if you are correct is with the seller then. Selling fuel that doesn't meet spec is illegal. Turn them in and sue them for damages. The old method of producing biodiesel worked okay for the older model cars. Newer models will have to use better fuel that comes from GTL or BTL type processes. The Neste fuel being sold in California is of this type and matches petroleum diesel very closely, but has even better specs. It doesn't gel up like the older stuff and has very high cetane values as well. It is a much better fuel than the old types. You won't make it in your backyard shed though.
Any idea how much cetane it has? I remember calling Shell, ConocoPhilips, and Chevron a few years ago. The first was clueless about cetane (call center in the Philippines), the latter two stated the cetane in its fuel was above 48 in CA. I've also seen numerous pumps in the Southern states state "minimum 40 cetane," but I think that's the legal minimum anyways, unless other states have higher minimum cetane ratings?
 

Jeta Life

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it's even funnier when you ask the gas station attendants about cetane content and they give me the look like I'm questioning the quality of the diesel fuel.

one guy's reply to me was pretty good...he said Mercedes diesels fill up here too.

NJ is one of the only states in USA where we cannot handle fuel fill ups without attendant help..so I avoid peak times when filing...hate that rule
 

pkhoury

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it's even funnier when you ask the gas station attendants about cetane content and they give me the look like I'm questioning the quality of the diesel fuel.

one guy's reply to me was pretty good...he said Mercedes diesels fill up here too.

NJ is one of the only states in USA where we cannot handle fuel fill ups without attendant help..so I avoid peak times when filing...hate that rule
Yeah, I found that out a week ago. OR is the same way, but diesel is exempt. Apparently not NJ, and I top off my tank (gives me an extra 1-2 gallons). I ended up filling up when I got back to VA just to avoid that law.

And most fuel stations I've been to have no idea what the hell cetane is - I usually get blank stares.
 

ZippyNH

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I am surprised by this question.
Folks do it...
The old urban legend..."a diesel will burn anything, let me show you..."
Or they saw a car, maybe modified do it...so they try....
I, unfortunately am no longer surprised by much.

Once had a seemingly well educated copilot, was a former refugee from a island country with a volcano.....became educated, and a pilot no less....tried to tell me that oxygen was harmful, and was afraid it might shorten his life if we depressurized and had to use the masks to breathe...he had read that oxygenis a powerful ""force that corroded and oxidizis" stuff....
Was the same type of person that would tell you coke-a-cola was dangerous cause it can "rust a nail", lol...it is mostly water with sugar, right?
Often people act without having thought stuff out, and lack critical thinking skills...
And examples like this helps the rest of us find them....and give them space to let mother nature have their way....they do things like ...er..walk off course paying poke-e-mon-go....
 

waltzconmigo

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zippy---i think you mistook my remarks, i meant that it surprises me that Lf1 did not think of the quote about god/nature and the building of a better idiot.
 

Jeta Life

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Yeah, I found that out a week ago. OR is the same way, but diesel is exempt. Apparently not NJ, and I top off my tank (gives me an extra 1-2 gallons). I ended up filling up when I got back to VA just to avoid that law.

And most fuel stations I've been to have no idea what the hell cetane is - I usually get blank stares.
The truck stop type of station where I fill up is kind of like entering a foreign country's borders. Some of the dudes they hire are not exactly trained to answer dieselhead's Cetane inquiries.

The main thing for me is they get 2 truck refills per day or so the guy says. Fresh diesel helps I guess with these pathetic CP4 HPFPs, not exactly rock solid reliable. Or who really knows for sure the failure rate being < 1%.

I was hoping to swap out for a CP3 but of course Dieselgate screwed things up.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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The truck stop type of station where I fill up is kind of like entering a foreign country's borders. Some of the dudes they hire are not exactly trained to answer dieselhead's Cetane inquiries.

The main thing for me is they get 2 truck refills per day or so the guy says. Fresh diesel helps I guess with these pathetic CP4 HPFPs, not exactly rock solid reliable. Or who really knows for sure the failure rate being < 1%.

I was hoping to swap out for a CP3 but of course Dieselgate screwed things up.
What's stopping you? If NJ doesn't have CARB-esque emissions regulations, just keep the car. Spend some money, upgrade the crappy/failure prone stuff (or do deletes), and enjoy the car. Although I'll be honest, I've been driving the Golf more lately, only because I find it more of a fun car to drive (although the suspension on my JSW is a lot better).

I don't know what my timeline is for replacing the CP4.1, but that's definitely something I'm fixing to replace at some point in the future, along with a muffler delete (near future).
 

pkhoury

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It seems a lot of diesel owners are driven to add almost anything to their fuel tank, oil and any other fluid.
Someone from here (whose name I won't mention) said he thought he wasn't going to make it to a fuel station before running out of fuel, so he dumped some oil in the fuel tank. His Golf has the same setup as me, so now DPF to worry about. I definitely laughed when he told me. I don't even put in old oil in my tractor (although I'd like to).
 

runonbeer

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NOx is theoretically higher with bio blends because biodiesel generally has a higher cetane than regular diesel. Higher cetane effectively advances ignition timing. Advanced ignition results in higher peak cylinder pressure. Elevated PCP creates more NOx.
 

Jeta Life

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What's stopping you? If NJ doesn't have CARB-esque emissions regulations, just keep the car. Spend some money, upgrade the crappy/failure prone stuff (or do deletes), and enjoy the car. Although I'll be honest, I've been driving the Golf more lately, only because I find it more of a fun car to drive (although the suspension on my JSW is a lot better).
I don't know what my timeline is for replacing the CP4.1, but that's definitely something I'm fixing to replace at some point in the future, along with a muffler delete (near future).
Don't know, I suppose you're right but the CR VWs suck, plain and simple. Yeah they're fun to drive, but too much has gone wrong for me with this TDI I purchased CPO in September of 2012 for $18,000. And now that VW is giving me about $11,000 for it, I honestly can't turn it down.
Even with all the work I had done to it, it has been a fun car, but also a money pit car. Facts are that ALH VWs continue to be much more popular with VW enthusiasts than CRs, plain and simple. I may just look into getting a Passat TDI wagon if I can find one, I guess they're rare, don't know.
 

pkhoury

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Don't know, I suppose you're right but the CR VWs suck, plain and simple. Yeah they're fun to drive, but too much has gone wrong for me with this TDI I purchased CPO in September of 2012 for $18,000. And now that VW is giving me about $11,000 for it, I honestly can't turn it down.
Even with all the work I had done to it, it has been a fun car, but also a money pit car. Facts are that ALH VWs continue to be much more popular with VW enthusiasts than CRs, plain and simple. I may just look into getting a Passat TDI wagon if I can find one, I guess they're rare, don't know.
Or if you can get past the camshaft issues, a PD TDI. I love mine, and I don't have to plow as much money for moderately aggressive power and tuning as opposed to the ALH.

Once the problem areas are addressed on a CR (DPF, HPFP, EGR), you really shouldn't be having any problems with it. DPF is obviously the weak spot, since it seems so many of us with older CR TDIs have had one or two DPF failures by now.
 

Jeta Life

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Or if you can get past the camshaft issues, a PD TDI. I love mine, and I don't have to plow as much money for moderately aggressive power and tuning as opposed to the ALH.

Once the problem areas are addressed on a CR (DPF, HPFP, EGR), you really shouldn't be having any problems with it. DPF is obviously the weak spot, since it seems so many of us with older CR TDIs have had one or two DPF failures by now.
Far from being a wrench turner, as a regular Joe just looking to get a problem free ride how would you say a 2005 Passat TDI wagon (I'm assuming it's a PD with a BHW engine) would do as far as reliability ?

I've got a lot of research to do these next few months as far as trying to come up with a replacement car. I have not ruled out TDIs. Still like my TDI but don't know if I should chance it waiting for a fix. I'm pretty sure there's nothing they can do as far as deny my registration. No idea how that legal crap will workout with VW and individual states working out deals on inspections/registrations.

I'm going to open a thread to get input across the board and I'm pretty sure the ALH Jetta wagon will probably get the top picks, just wondering what you thought of the 2005 Passat TDI wagon, which I think only comes in an automatic (may be a problem mechanically).

There is an article I found on Jalopnik on a modded 2005 wagon converted to a stick:

http://jalopnik.com/for-11-000-this-2005-vw-passat-tdi-is-shaken-and-stir-1718884064

Happens to be about the exact dollar amount VW will offer me: $11,000. That probably sold, but looks like the mods that dude did were cool.

What have you done to to your Golf TDI so far ? Congrats, that must feel like a mini 911 compared to your JSW.:)
 
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