Mass Air or Turbo issue?

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
New to TDI's and the forum. I have been searching the forums for an answer, with no luck. I have a 2002 Jetta Wagon have had a reduction in mpg and no power above 3400 rpm. I logged my Mass Air on my VCDS (as stated on ross tech) and noticed the graph was surging. I assumed I needed to replace my mass air sensor, until I noticed my boost followed the same wave. Does this still lead to a bad mass air sensor or another problem? Thanks for the help!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gu9u4g2spp98wqb/massairgraph.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/snafusgd50099to/boostgraph.jpg?dl=0
 

2000alhVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Location
Silver Spring, MD
TDI
2000 Golf
Seems VERY similar to my situation before I got it mostly fixed. My car had the exact same "MAF waves". Step on the pedal, MAF briefly gives a proper value, then falls, then comes back up a bit, falls, comes back up, falls. Each time the bounce gets lower and lower.

My car ran so poorly with the MAF plugged in, I drove with it unplugged just to be able to achieve high way speeds. The car was just plain gutless, and would slow to a stop up hills.

I would recommend a few easy, free tests:
First, unplug the MAF and see what changes.
Then unplug the vacuum line that goes down to the turbo vane actuator.

When I unplugged the vacuum line, it was like this weird...'calming of the storm'. Where my car had low power, but it...worked. I step on the pedal, it went faster. All my MAF graphs immediately whipped into shape, and it worked perfectly, just without the boost.

I eventually narrowed my issue down to my turbo vane actuator rod being out of adjustment and over boosting immediately, so my car would actually trip into limp mode at the very first throttle demand. It would literally go into limp mode on flat ground within .5 seconds of being started up.
When the computer trips limp mode, it cuts fuel heavily (among other things). So you've got low power on top of low power conditions.

When I disconnected the vacuum line (effectively removing the turbo from the equation), the turbo could no longer overboost and trip limp mode, so the computer spit proper fuel into the car based on proper MAF values.

But it could be other things too
 

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
Seems VERY similar to my situation before I got it mostly fixed. My car had the exact same "MAF waves". Step on the pedal, MAF briefly gives a proper value, then falls, then comes back up a bit, falls, comes back up, falls. Each time the bounce gets lower and lower.

My car ran so poorly with the MAF plugged in, I drove with it unplugged just to be able to achieve high way speeds. The car was just plain gutless, and would slow to a stop up hills.

I would recommend a few easy, free tests:
First, unplug the MAF and see what changes.
Then unplug the vacuum line that goes down to the turbo vane actuator.

When I unplugged the vacuum line, it was like this weird...'calming of the storm'. Where my car had low power, but it...worked. I step on the pedal,
it went faster. All my MAF graphs immediately whipped into shape, and it worked perfectly, just without the boost.

I eventually narrowed my issue down to my turbo vane actuator rod being out of adjustment and over boosting immediately, so my car would actually trip into limp mode at the very first throttle demand. It would literally go into limp mode on flat ground within .5 seconds of being started up.
When the computer trips limp mode, it cuts fuel heavily (among other things).
So you've got low power on top of low power conditions.

When I disconnected the vacuum line (effectively removing the turbo from the equation), the turbo could no longer overboost and trip limp mode, so the computer spit proper fuel into the car based on proper MAF values.

But it could be other things too

Interesting, I will try unplugging the mass air sensor tomorrow. Will the car go into limp mode without throwing a code? I don’t seem to have any codes, and can still get up to speed and hold speed up hills, but after 33-3400 rpm it’s like the can loses almost all power....
 

2000alhVW

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2018
Location
Silver Spring, MD
TDI
2000 Golf
Interesting, I will try unplugging the mass air sensor tomorrow. Will the car go into limp mode without throwing a code? I don’t seem to have any codes, and can still get up to speed and hold speed up hills, but after 33-3400 rpm it’s like the can loses almost all power....

"Can car go into limp mode without throwing a code?"

Short answer: Yes. My car NEVER threw a CEL (dash light illuminated) for ANYTHING, despite having pending and current codes logged. Additionally, I could drive my car for hundreds of miles in "limp mode" before ANY codes would show up when checking via VCDS. This sent me into somewhat of a fury that these ECMs are quite stupid.

Long answer:
I'm not really sure the answer of this. For a couple of reasons...
I've found this particular question/topic/point to be seldom directly talked about. The relationship between limp mode and CEL has gotten mixed answers when I've read.
The ambiguous part, for me, is the "limp mode" itself. Like, what is it really? I've poked around quite a bit with VCDS and haven't found any sort of data box or anything to indicate whether limp mode has been tripped or not. Maybe this is the fact that my car is an early version (2000) and not as intelligent as later models, but I'm almost convinced that the computer itself might not even know it's operating in limp mode.
It might just dumbly be bumped over to an alternate fuel map, similar to, say, open loop fueling during cold starts on a gas car.

To me, it would be super obvious computer logic. IF overboost, then throw into limp mode immediately (which it does) and then trip an overboost code which lights up CEL.
But no such thing happened for me. In my case, the ECM was utterly useless, and VCDS scanning/datalogging was only mildly helpful. I only solved my issues by getting down into nitty gritty old-fashioned mechanical diagnosis/logic.
 

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
"Can car go into limp mode without throwing a code?"

Short answer: Yes. My car NEVER threw a CEL (dash light illuminated) for ANYTHING, despite having pending and current codes logged. Additionally, I could drive my car for hundreds of miles in "limp mode" before ANY codes would show up when checking via VCDS. This sent me into somewhat of a fury that these ECMs are quite stupid.

Long answer:
I'm not really sure the answer of this. For a couple of reasons...
I've found this particular question/topic/point to be seldom directly talked about. The relationship between limp mode and CEL has gotten mixed answers when I've read.
The ambiguous part, for me, is the "limp mode" itself. Like, what is it really? I've poked around quite a bit with VCDS and haven't found any sort of data box or anything to indicate whether limp mode has been tripped or not. Maybe this is the fact that my car is an early version (2000) and not as intelligent as later models, but I'm almost convinced that the computer itself might not even know it's operating in limp mode.
It might just dumbly be bumped over to an alternate fuel map, similar to, say, open loop fueling during cold starts on a gas car.

To me, it would be super obvious computer logic. IF overboost, then throw into limp mode immediately (which it does) and then trip an overboost code which lights up CEL.
But no such thing happened for me. In my case, the ECM was utterly useless, and VCDS scanning/datalogging was only mildly helpful. I only solved my issues by getting down into nitty gritty old-fashioned mechanical diagnosis/logic.
Very interesting. I have been having this issue for a while. Good to see some possible answers.
 

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
Clogged fuel filter? Or gunked up manifold?
I just replaced the fuel filter and ran a can of diesel purge. I also pulled the inter cooler and drained the oil at the same time.

I was leaning towards either the mass air sensor or a possible clogged intake manifold. I saw the tutorial on cleaning, is there a way to tell if it is clogged without pulling it all the way off?
 

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon

mrfiat

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Location
Los Ranchos, NM
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (Reflex Silver) , 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon (Black)
I paid the NAPA machine shop $30 to clean my intake out. It's a messy job. People also burn out the gunk with a torch. (read up on the method here before trying it)
 

Nero Morg

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Location
OR
TDI
2014 A6 TDI, 2001 Jetta TDI, 2014 Passat TDI
I paid the NAPA machine shop $30 to clean my intake out. It's a messy job. People also burn out the gunk with a torch. (read up on the method here before trying it)
NAPA does that? So you mean the four days of soaking in Zep and scrubbing could have been avoided? I still have a flathead screwdriver covered in that sludge.
 

ToxicDoc

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2018
Location
Virginia, US
TDI
2001 Jetta, S7, .216
NAPA does that? So you mean the four days of soaking in Zep and scrubbing could have been avoided? I still have a flathead screwdriver covered in that sludge.
Any general automotive machine shop can do it - some NAPA, Car Quest, locations have them. They just run parts like that through the hot tank (or whatever is currently in since many have gotten away from the chemicals and EPA requirements).
 
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montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
Awesome. Going to try and clean it today. I’m not sure anyone in town will touch it, so I have been reading up on the cleaning methods. What about the passages is the block? Should I clean those at this time?
 

indysoto

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2004
Location
Eugene, OR
I burned mine(the second time), wrapped in towel up to ports, sitting in shallow pan of water(had to replace water 3 times!)..ALOT of potential energy there and smoke. Very dangerous, Quite impressive. Enjoy.
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
Awesome. Going to try and clean it today. I’m not sure anyone in town will touch it, so I have been reading up on the cleaning methods. What about the passages is the block? Should I clean those at this time?
While it is relatively easy to remove and replace the intake manifold, cleaning the
ports is more involved. You will need to remove the valve cover and rotate the
engine by hand to make sure the valves for the cylinder you are cleaning are closed.
You will need to have a shop-vac and/or compressed air to get the debris out after
you clear the port with some small scrapers you make or have lying around.
A small mirror will help you see what you are doing.

I just used a few gallons of RUG in a 5 gallon bucket to soften up the sludge in my IM.
That got most of it and then I followed up with Simple Green and warm water.
Hoppe's No. 9 took care of any stubborn spots that were left over.
 
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montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
I burned mine(the second time), wrapped in towel up to ports, sitting in shallow pan of water(had to replace water 3 times!)..ALOT of potential energy there and smoke. Very dangerous, Quite impressive. Enjoy.
How many miles between the first and second cleaning? How bad was it the second time? Thinking about a tune with a dynamic edge to reduce cleaning.
 

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
While it is relatively easy to remove and replace the intake manifold, cleaning the
ports is more involved. You will need to remove the valve cover and rotate the
engine by hand to make sure the valves for the cylinder you are cleaning are closed.
You will need to have a shop-vac and/or compressed air to get the debris out after
you clear the port with some small scrapers you make or have lying around.
A small mirror will help you see what you are doing.

I just used a few gallons of RUG in a 5 gallon bucket to soften up the sludge in my IM.
That got most of it and then I followed up with Simple Green and warm water.
Hoppe's No. 9 took care of any stubborn spots that were left over.
I will check out the passages and see how bad they are. My local carquest is cleaning the manifold now, hopefully it comes out clean, if not I will soak it. Would of never thought of hoppes 9. Thanks!
 

montanajetta

Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2018
Location
Southwest Montana
TDI
2002 Jetta Wagon
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