best turbo choice for 260bhp/400ftlb daily driver?

greeting folks,
bit of advice im looking at following turbo and cam choice for next pd build. id like to push a good driveable flexible 260bhp and 400ftlb that is enjoyable as daily driver as well as giving it some boot on the back roads.
ive always used basic gt hybrids for past projects but looking at the newer gtb/gtd range some of the turbos ive looked at are the following
gtd1760 vrk .. profiturbo do gtd1756 and gtd1760 hybrids ..60mm to big for 17 housing??
gtb2056vk
gtd2060 vrk
im hoping to get as good or better response than my old gt1756 set up
also what cams are folk using for fast road use if any
engine will be a pd150 ARL going to a mk1 leon cupra r,

Imo original GTD2060 should be the best option for your goal, avoid hybrids as much as possible, often they dont work as they should.

Agree on the GTD2060 and to avoid Frankenstein hybrid turbos, but that's me. I'll add the GTB2060VLKR or GTB2260VLKR. The latter will be less restrictive near the limit of your 260 HP at some cost to turbo lag, but the ball bearings will offset that, which the GTD does not have.

TDIMeister said:

Agree on the GTD2060 and to avoid Frankenstein hybrid turbos, but that's me. I'll add the GTB2060VLKR or GTB2260VLKR. The latter will be less restrictive near the limit of your 260 HP at some cost to turbo lag, but the ball bearings will offset that, which the GTD does not have.

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id rather keep housing size as small as possible mate , ive been in a 280bhp fabia with a gtb2260vklr and was bit laggy for my liking , nice smooth power and pulled like mad from 3k to it 5.5k limit but was not what im looking for , i want a bit more mid range punch.

how dose the gtb2060vklr with 3rd gen vnt and ball bearings stack up to the gtd2060vrk with journal bearings and 5th gen vnt pros an cons of each?
cheers

try a R2S/DSGT system if you are picky some even boost good from 1000 rpm

Turbo Z said:

try a R2S/DSGT system if you are picky some even boost good from 1000 rpm

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ive never heard of such a unit lol,

ive had a quick google but cant seem to find any info in english. have you got any links mate ?

I think that it's about this
https://www.borgwarner.com/news-med...d-r2s-system-takes-boosting-to-the-next-level

Probably much simpler would be to add a Valeo electric compressor as used in the RS5 TDI concept and SQ7 4.0 TDI.

gmo said:

how dose the gtb2060vklr with 3rd gen vnt and ball bearings stack up to the gtd2060vrk with journal bearings and 5th gen vnt pros an cons of each?
cheers

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First off, contrary to early hopes and speculations, there is no GTD2060VRK, but in another thread, very reliable authority majesty78 says the Z bearing has drag and friction loss somewhere between conventional and rollers. Nobody has yet done a side-by-side comparo between the GTD2060VZ and GTB2060VKLR so go ahead, be the first.

It would be tough call to make from our collective armchairs because there are many factors beyond merely bearing type that dictates transient response, but if I were a betting man, I'd put a narrow nod to the VKLR; such is my enthusiasm and confidence in BB technology; which I believe will extend to more and more OEM applications down the pipeline.

I'm not fundamentally against hybrids IFF proven OE wheels with available maps are used. I have rather less confidence in aftermarket wheels, no matter how persuasive all the features sound and checkboxes they tick off. If you put a premium on daily driving response, a GTD1760VRK hybrid would fit the bill but at the expense of low-end surge margin (all 60mm wheels will have this issue in common; a 56mm base exducer diameter, largish trim and extended tips will be a compromise between surge margin and flow limit with a small trim 60mm with no extended tip) and having a restrictive turbine side for 260 HP.

Do it not need to use a 48V system? If that the case not that simple.

R2s and DSGT system you really first need to know what you are doing and then let the hard ware do it for you or modify, and you really need to identify a good R2S combo that can do what you want and that is not so simple as it first sound and then also find it, and at last find one since new it can be ridiculously expensive direct from car /truck manufacture..

But get it right and it is more then fantastic...

TDIMeister said:

Probably much simpler would be to add a Valeo electric compressor as used in the RS5 TDI concept and SQ7 4.0 TDI.

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Valeo has systems for 12, 24 and 48V. Only Audi uses 48V.
https://www.valeo.com/en/electric-supercharger/

Here is another 12V system:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161014-aeristech.html

TDIMeister said:

Valeo has systems for 12, 24 and 48V. Only Audi uses 48V.
https://www.valeo.com/en/electric-supercharger/

Here is another 12V system:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/10/20161014-aeristech.html

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I was thinking of such thing in my 1.8T gasser, but the possible immens gradient is maybe difficult to map in an engine which has its target in a specific lambda value....

majesty78 said:

I was thinking of such thing in my 1.8T gasser, but the possible immens gradient is maybe difficult to map in an engine which has its target in a specific lambda value....

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I don't think so. The MAF plays a much more active role in a gasser than in a diesel in measuring air mass flow and matching the fuel quantity to maintain lambda=1. It will simply act like a larger naturally aspirated engine.

well after a bit read i can safely say that the R2S /DSGT system is way above my budget and skill set, im not in same league as most of you guys so please bear with me im still learning.
few questions please folks

is gtd 1760vrk really capable of making 260bhp or would a gtb2056vk have as good response and better top end?.. i thought 56mm wheel was the max for a 17 frame turbo?

re surge issues with 60mm compressors , why dose this happen and can it be combated by wheel design or material ?

whats the thought on compressor style ? it seem the most of this forum dont like after market wheels are stick with cast but what about the garret gen 2 billet wheels that supposed to offer faster spool and transient response than the usual 6x6 or gtx 11 blade types commonly used

last question that may lead on to another thread , can nos be used on tdi as sort of anti lag like one some petrol turbos ive seen or is it best to have it running along side the boost.

thanks for help so far, cheers

I was always lead to believe that the best sized turbo for the 1.9 tdi was the GTB2056VL, best spool and hp compromise, maybe there is a better one around now, I have one in the garage I never used, for a time when my stock turbo gave up

There is no single turbo that is the "best sized" to cover the entire range of owner performance and transient expectations, as well as matching the aspirating needs of the engine. For some, a 1244 will be sufficient; on the other end of the spectrum, someone might find a S356V still wanting (if you're not familiar with what it is, accept that it is huge, with over 3" diameters on both compressor and turbine wheels close to a Garrett 3576). The "best sized" turbo is the see-saw compromise of what your own HP target is and what you're willing to sacrifice in turbo lag and low-end torque to achieve it.

Edit: Where the engine displacement and volumetric efficiency are essentially constant, the turbo selection for the supported HP, turbo lag and low-end torque are continually moving targets.

TurboS - Fixed it for you

When I saw 260HP/400ft-lbf/Daily Driver/1.9L the first thing that came to mind was a compound.

Like TDIMeister mentioned above, there will be some compromises to achieve this (particularly on a single turbo setup) - I'm guessing that the biggest compromise will be transient response if you want to achieve 260/400

A gtb 1756vk is hard to beat- might not do 260 Bhp but it will be poky and with very good transient response ! On a 4 banger a gtb2060vklr is also a very, very good turbo- ball bearing and really good transient- just what the other have said in previous posts... personally I would live with a bigger turbo- it will be a second slower to spool but will support more Bhp and spool for longer without high egt or boost creep.
Many hybrids don’t work however I have made a very, very good couple but with modern wheels in old housings- all were stock Garrett wheels- I personally don’t like the billet wheels, too many variations and loads to go wrong !

many thanks fellas, im learning a hell of lot more on here than most reg car forums . a lot of stuff you talk about i have to google to have half a clue , really appreciate the time you are all taking to share the knowledge ,

ive got a set of +80 nozzles i picked up for price i couldnt refuse so have the fuelling side sorted ,

what kind of figures could a gtb 1756vk support id it has the injectors to support it , i really fancy the gtb2060vklr but hear the bearings are not all that reliable , whats the story behind this ?

what compressor wheel do folk favour for this task?

one on reason for this build is i have a couple of mate, one with a focus st3 stage 1 and another with a corsa xvr with few mod, both about 260-270bhp and atm my old bora with gt1756 cant keep up and both reckon il never catch them in a old diesel on the twist roads round were we live .

thanks again

You're in pretty much the same boat as me Im looked for a good turbo setup but don't want to be too far up the rpm band before I get full boost it's always a trade off with searching for more power with single turbos though unfortunately
I've realised that with my twin compound bmw it was easy to reach 280bhp without sacrificing any low end grunt but with these single turbos if you want Dailey driver low end grunt you need to think slightly lower power figures bewtwen 220-240hp anything above that probably needs head work anyway
The 1756vk as said is a really good all rounder at max safe boost around 31 psi and probably canals of around 220-240hp depending on mods the 2056vk is exactly the same 56mm compressor only 2 mm larger turbine exducer meaning it can hold extra boost around 34psi safely with supporting mods but capable of 250-260hp both of these turbos spool quickly but won't reach boost until 2600-2700rpm where as I've noticed the gtd 1752vrk produces similar power figures
To the 1756vk but at just 2200 rpm and only 27psi so I'm wondering if that might be better , plus a note to add my current setup with a basic map runing 180bhp doesn't feel much slower than my BMW twin turbo runing 280plus
Because The tourqe is about the same ,
These vw engines produce far more tourque with single turbo set ups and feel much more fun at lower power figures , so hope that helps
And not sure what you've heard but as far as I'm aware ball bearing turbos have always been traditionally more expensive and more stable under boost than floating thrust bearing turbos but I might be wrong or old fashioned !!

what about a something like this https://gottuned.com/product/gtd175...m-converted-and-welded-onto-stock-1-9-2-0tdi/, with bit headwork, will it be much better than gtb1756vk
ive been toying with idea of duel maps and nos ,il make another thread about fuel and nos so stay tuned for more questiion

Looks ideal but I'm weary of using billet hybrids as a Dailey driver I'd rather just use bigger
Stock garret of kkk turbos that you know are bomb proof if you stay within safe psi ,
Most Hybrids usually create higher egts due to the cut back blades they might have moved on and be better but always scares me
But I admit it looks ideal for what I'm looking for

"Bomb proof" and KKK VNT Turbo can not be in one sentence.

cog said:

Looks ideal but I'm weary of using billet hybrids as a Dailey driver I'd rather just use bigger
Stock garret of kkk turbos that you know are bomb proof if you stay within safe psi ,
Most Hybrids usually create higher egts due to the cut back blades they might have moved on and be better but always scares me
But I admit it looks ideal for what I'm looking for

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They do one with stock cast wheel to mate , also a gtd1760vkr that rated 260bhp with good spool (so it says ) but im wondering if a 60mm wheel is to much for 17 housing as i keep hearing 52mm is best and 56mm max. i might drop them a email and ask about the cut back blades to as that another thing i thought was good but turns out is detrimental to the turbo. i always though shiny billet wheels and cuts back turbine blades were a must lol.

im not so sure on kkk being bomb proof mate, Ive no exp but not heard anything good about them when trying to get decant power

DervTech Tuning is at DervTech Tuning.
18 April at 11:02 · Manchester ·
279hp Caddy 1.9 TDi!!

We had a really nice Caddy come to us from Evolution Paintworks LTD up in Carlisle; with the ever popular "ASZ swap". Fitted with GP Turbos very special 60mm hybrid turbocharger with enlarged turbine, for the 1.9 TDi.

This gives impressive spool, but also fantastic performance up top - making just under 280hp!

This van is seriously quick on the road; mainly due to the punchy nature of the turbo and very wide power band.

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using a gt1860 with gtx wheel. is this possible ?

for some reason i cant post pics of it .

60mm GTX comp wheel map:



About 36 lb/min at PR=3.4 (about 35 PSI). Can support about 300 HP in a TDI. Not bad.

While we are on the subject of compressor wheels:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=1939306#post1939306

An OE 60mm Garrett wheel, probably 2nd gen, 0.51 compressor A/R (a small value is usually best for high PR applications) and 50 trim (42.4mm inducer).

majesty78 said:

"Bomb proof" and KKK VNT Turbo can not be in one sentence.

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Oops My bad was thinking of garret and Borg and warner used a few in my bmw
, it's been while on the forum guys Plus my age is now a factor .....
Gmo I see you're in County Durham im from boro but live in spenny at the minute if you get a turbo in before me let me know

TDIMeister said:

60mm GTX comp wheel map:

About 36 lb/min at PR=3.4 (about 35 PSI). Can support about 300 HP in a TDI. Not bad.

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at the risk of sounding thick , how do i learn to read these graphs mate ? what to think of this turbo in general , every time i think ive found the unit i want i stumble across another that seem to fit the job better and could be cheaper to lol

cog said:

Oops My bad was thinking of garret and Borg and warner used a few in my bmw
, it's been while on the forum guys Plus my age is now a factor .....
Gmo I see you're in County Durham im from boro but live in spenny at the minute if you get a turbo in before me let me know

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i used to work the doors down spenny years ago mate , its a funny old town lol, i live in crook so only stones throw away, if i get it sorted before you il be more than happy to pop down and let you have a spin,