Perfectreign
Veteran Member
@romad - just noticed your location, "state of Jefferson" - love it.
FWIW, my dad's family hails from near Redding, but I was stuck here in SoCal.
Next generation renewable diesel now available in NorCal?
- Thread starter SFHGolfTDI
- Start date
FWIW, my dad's family hails from near Redding, but I was stuck here in SoCal.
B100
Veteran Member
What @Romad said about the blending, they do it properly at the Oasis.
And yes, you can still get B99.9 at the Oasis, if you bring your own container - CA regs no longer allow them to dispense it into a vehicle's fuel tank, so you take it home and either do your own blending with D2, or HPR, or just run it straight.
Me personally, I'm running the B20/RD80 from the Oasis. Yes, I could get HPR cheaper at the station on University Ave, but I really like the Oasis, the women who have run it, and want them to stay around, so I'm happy to give them my business.
Digital Corpus
Top Post Dawg
I though the problem with D2 & HPR was that when mixed and *stored* percipitation can occur.
romad
Top Post Dawg
I believe that was RD & BD, not RD & D2. Hmm, RDD2; that looks familiar somehow.
romad
Top Post Dawg
Here is Neste's handbook on RD. According to page 23, there is apparently no problem with long-term storage of a D2/RD mix. As for mixing BD & RD, according to page 24, the recommendation is no more than 7% FAME BD.
Matt-98AHU
Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
I may have missed a few pages here, not sure if it's been posted, but here's some interesting information from the ARB on Neste's NexBTL/HPR.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-co-rd-rpt-072915.pdf
Goes into more detail on feed stocks and processes as well as carbon credits. Would be interesting to see more real numbers on energy used in production vs. energy gained. This is still a rather intensive process that undoubtedly uses quite a lot of energy in production.
As always, there's no free lunch. So long as we're netting a gain, that's the important part.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-co-rd-rpt-072915.pdf
Goes into more detail on feed stocks and processes as well as carbon credits. Would be interesting to see more real numbers on energy used in production vs. energy gained. This is still a rather intensive process that undoubtedly uses quite a lot of energy in production.
As always, there's no free lunch. So long as we're netting a gain, that's the important part.
wxman
Veteran Member
Renewable diesel (R100) is arguably the least damaging from a full life-cycle emissions perspective of any vehicle technology/fuel pathway combination currently available commercially, assuming NOx emissions from the diesel vehicles can be controlled to default levels in GREET.
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atc98002
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- 2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
Wxman, I love that you always back your position with factual information. Too bad some of the other forums you post on won't listen (usually).
SFHGolfTDI
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- 2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
My understanding is that B99/B100 from locally-sourced waste oils still beats out all of the above. The graph you posted doesn't include it, but it is available commercially.Renewable diesel (R100) is arguably the least damaging from a full life-cycle emissions perspective of any vehicle technology/fuel pathway combination currently available commercially, assuming NOx emissions from the diesel vehicles can be controlled to default levels in GREET.
wxman
Veteran Member
You may be right, but GREET doesn't have B100 option for a fuel pathway, only B20, and that's FAME biodiesel from virgin soy oil.
Also, since B100 isn't fully compatible with current diesel technology, only pre-2007 diesels can use it, and the "operation" portion of the graph would be considerably higher than that assumed for post-2007 diesel technology.
Also, since B100 isn't fully compatible with current diesel technology, only pre-2007 diesels can use it, and the "operation" portion of the graph would be considerably higher than that assumed for post-2007 diesel technology.
tikal
Veteran Member
Also, for practical purposes, biodiesel from locally-sourced waste oils is such a small amount compared to commercially produced biodiesel and I do not see a positive growth trend for it in the future either. Correct me if I am wrong please.
tikal
Veteran Member
wxman, thank you again for the useful information you post in these forums. Is there a link for the chart on post # 427 or is it one that you put together using the GREET model?
Perfectreign
Veteran Member
Wow, according to that document, the stuff going into our vehicles is made from corn oil. Amazing. I figured it was created domestically.
Wonder how much energy goes into the growing of corn, harvesting the corn, transporting the corn and then completing the process.
wxman
Veteran Member
It's one that I put together from the GREET model.
The methodology is essentially the same as the NAS report from 2009.
National Academy of Sciences, "Hidden Cost of Energy: Unpriced Consequences of Energy Production and Use." (2009), http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=12794, Figure 3-7(a), Page 212 (of 506)
tikal
Veteran Member
Great and thanks. I did find the NAS report.
B100
Veteran Member
Maybe a small semantic point here, but biodiesel from locally-sourced waste oils isn't necessarily not commercial, or not made to commercial ASTM spec.
Thanks, Matt, for above link on the Neste corn oil feedstock. Am I right to infer that the HPR we're buying here in the East Bay, which is coming from the Neste Singapore plant I believe, is therefore based in part on virgin U.S. corn oil? That's rather disappointing, if true.
SFHGolfTDI
Veteran Member
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- 2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
I think that wasn't the case when HPR started out, when it was using tallow and fish waste oil sources from South Asia. But I think they may have started up a new pathway based on US corn oil. It does seem idiotic to ship that stuff over the ocean twice and certainly increases the footprint. We need more renewable diesel producers in the West. I know there is one here in Los Angeles that seems focused on jet fuels.
romad
Top Post Dawg
There was one in the Bay Area using algae as its feedstock to create biofuels for aviation, IIRC.
Perfectreign
Veteran Member
Just sent them an email. Curious if they respond.
I was talking to my FIL last night about a few things. I brought this up, and he remembered working on a story about it. Until recently he was an editor for Chemical Engineering magazine. I found a concise article about Neste in the November 2014 issue, which he contributed to. It starts on page 13 in the below link:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/295758453/Chemical-Engineering-11-2014
The article is necessarily heady and way the heck above my head. However, it does describe a partnership with a company, Earth Energy Renewables, in Texas.
www.ee-renewables.com
I was talking to my FIL last night about a few things. I brought this up, and he remembered working on a story about it. Until recently he was an editor for Chemical Engineering magazine. I found a concise article about Neste in the November 2014 issue, which he contributed to. It starts on page 13 in the below link:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/295758453/Chemical-Engineering-11-2014
The article is necessarily heady and way the heck above my head. However, it does describe a partnership with a company, Earth Energy Renewables, in Texas.
www.ee-renewables.com
romad
Top Post Dawg
I think you mixed up two articles there. Yes, there is a very short 4 paragraph one on Neste, but below that is one on Texas A&M and a trash-to liquids project; it ends with the Earth Energy Renewables partnership.
B100
Veteran Member
I'm checking with Jennifer and Kelsey at Biofuel oasis on this, and will report back. If the process is now using virgin corn oil, from U.S. corn, I want no part of it... seriously, the damage that monsanto/dow/adm have done here is untenable. If HPR can be done with animal fats and recycled veg oil, that's what I would like to see, and if done in California, all the better.
jerryfreak
Veteran Member
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- 02 Jetta GLS sedan @295K, 99 Jetta sedan 275k,. 2015 tdi sedan, 105k
correct. our B99 market is shrinking year over year and particularly this year with the new ARB rules. despite absorbing customers from blue sky, bently, yokayo, etc, were not selling much more B99 than we were 3-5 years ago. its a dying market
wxman
Veteran Member
It's my understanding that the corn oil used for NExBTL is derived from waste material from the manufacture of ethanol from corn ("Distillers Grain").
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-co-rd-rpt-072915.pdf
Agree that renewable diesel produced in Singapore not as efficient as it could be.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/fuels/lcfs/2a2b/apps/nes-co-rd-rpt-072915.pdf
Agree that renewable diesel produced in Singapore not as efficient as it could be.
romad
Top Post Dawg
I doubt there will ever be a major producer here in California due to the anti-business and onerous environmental regulations put into place by the legislature. Nevada should be able to make it a go however as they are much more friendly to business.
Perfectreign
Veteran Member
I got a reply back from them on the sourcing. While not optimal, at least I'm not supporting ISIS backed Saudi Oil barons in using this stuff.
On my first tank of HPR, I got 37 MPG, down from 40 MPG on the prior tank. That could be a combinaiton of things, however.
Here's the email:
On my first tank of HPR, I got 37 MPG, down from 40 MPG on the prior tank. That could be a combinaiton of things, however.
Here's the email:
Digital Corpus
Top Post Dawg
This thread has addressed the stock sourcing for HPR and cited palm oil, corn oil, and tallows/oils from beef. It could be my bad memory (such as D2 and HPR when it was FAME and HPR) but why do I keep seeing different stocks being called out as the singular sources for HPR production?
romad
Top Post Dawg
All those stocks can be used to make either RD or BD; it is the process used that provides the differences between the two. The Figure 1 graphic in page 4 of the Neste Renewable Diesel Handbook shows this as Esterification is the process for BD, while Hydotreating/Isomerization is the process for RD.
Neste Renewable Diesel Website
Neste Renewable Diesel brochure
Study on greenhouse gas and energy intensity of product chain
Material safety data sheet
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Perfectreign
Veteran Member
Ooh, and 88-page bedtime story!
romad
Top Post Dawg
Yes, nothing like reading theses to help you sleep!
romad
Top Post Dawg
In addition to this post over in the gas station stories thread, here is a link for Propel users:
https://propelproshop.com/
https://propelproshop.com/
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