NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

El Dobro

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That bad diesel doesn't seem to be taking out the pumps other manufacturers are using with their CR diesels.
 

bhtooefr

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I don't think it's the pumps, actually, although most other manufacturers are using an older design pump.

I think it's the filtration and water separation.

The modern CR pumps are more sensitive to bad fuel, but both Ford and GM are using the same family of pump as on the US-spec TDIs, and they're not blowing up.
 

GTIDan

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What's with the oil companies? In the past two years the quality of diesel has plummeted. We never had these troubles before. Bad diesel. Gosh, filling up at the pump is a crap shoot! ;)
..............and another reason to ONLY buy from a premium retailer.......Shell, 76, Chevron and so on. As you say it's a crap shoot and at least these guys should be OK.

Me? I use 76 mostly (52 Cetane, 480 lubricity) and Shell; Chevron in a pinch. So far so good.
 

chummer

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Yup bad fuel I was told, but what ever they're telling, it's all covered under the warranty. At first they gave me an enterprise rental then after their tech looked at it and they gave me the 2011 A4 to cruise around in. Haven't had to pay a penny yet, except for the gas of course.

About the diesel fuel, I only use 76 and some time chevron when I can't locate a 76 station.

"Gosh, filling up at the pump is a crap shoot! ;) " lol... I know right, I must of been the lucky one, hahaha.
 

GTIDan

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Yup bad fuel I was told, but what ever they're telling, it's all covered under the warranty. At first they gave me an enterprise rental then after their tech looked at it and they gave me the 2011 A4 to cruise around in. Haven't had to pay a penny yet, except for the gas of course.

About the diesel fuel, I only use 76 and some time chevron when I can't locate a 76 station.

"Gosh, filling up at the pump is a crap shoot! ;) " lol... I know right, I must of been the lucky one, hahaha.
Not good to hear............I use 76 90 percent of the time with Shell and Chevron filling in for the rest. 76 states their cetane is 52.7 and lubricity at or below 480.

Perhaps it was not the fuel but contamination in the station's tank. Keep us informed........thanks.
Dan
 
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bhtooefr

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Wasn't the Jeep Liberty a CR? That would be in service prior to the VW CR.
Yes, as are all Duramaxes, and 2003+ (IIRC) Cummins, and the 6.4 PowerStroke.

But, the 6.7 PowerStroke and 2011+ Duramax are the only engines, to my knowledge, other than the VW engines, using a Bosch CP4 pump in the US.

BMW and Mercedes are both using the CP3, as are the Cummins CR engines, the pre-2011 Duramaxes, and the Liberty.
 

securityguy

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See GTIDan...you were so sure in other threads that this would never happen in CA especially at the fuel stations you were so confident in because they told you over the phone all was good and their fuel was better than anyplace in the US...the best fuel since sliced bread and look what happend to poor old chummer. That great 76 fuel blew up his pump:eek: We ALL are at high risk for poor fuel regardless of where you live and how many promises the fuel companies make you!

Now to be fair, could have been caused by something else:confused: Probably not but I think we should all be thrilled that VW is taking care of his, and several others, without hesitation:D
 

DEZLBOY

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What's with the oil companies? In the past two years the quality of diesel has plummeted. We never had these troubles before. Bad diesel. Gosh, filling up at the pump is a crap shoot! ;)
Yes, I am quoting myself. SARCASM! My post was meant to be SARCASTIC! It's not bad fuel. It's the pump and VW won't come out and say it. In other words they are lying to their customers. And VW expects our loyalty? Based on what?
 

tico27464

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Oh, I used about 1/3 of the tank before this all happened.
I'll be the first to admit I'm hardly an expert on this kind of thing, but my guess is that if contaminated fuel were the main problem (as opposed a fragile, inadequate design at some point along the line, be it filtration, the pump itself, or something else altogether), the problem would have happened sooner. Maybe not, who knows, like I said, no expert here, but that's what, at least 150 miles?

Anyhow, glad the Mother Ship is taking care of you. Keep us posted.
Cheers,
~T
 

TDI2Fan

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Yup bad fuel I was told, ...
I have been meaning to ask about this. I was lucky and found a Southern States that rotates its Diesel tanks at least three (3) times a week as my primary fill location. My back-up is a Sunoco Truck stop. When we travel, only fill-up at Large Truck stops. My 2002 and newer Diesels has had a diet like this from first tank.

From what I have read and what has been inferred by the many posts, is that a high percentage of the US Diesel car fleet fuels at gas stations with questionable at best fuel.

I could easily expect a regular gas station to somehow contaminate a Diesel storage tank as that is likely the least sold product.

I realize that this does not change the fact that the only manufacturer experiencing a problem large enough to get attention is VW. This also does not change the fact there may be issues at the POS. I have not seen this statistic rolled into the others.
 

CedarPark68

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The Major Brand on the sign is important, but there is something more important:

The fuel carrier and the attached 'mini market'.

Major mini markets here in Central Texas are Tetco Stores (Chevron) and Speedy Stop (Shell, or Texaco)

Tetco exclusively uses Mission Petro as their carrier, they have so many stores that Mission can dedicate trucks to hauling only Chevron fuel to their Tetco account.

Speedy Stop however is very different, some are Shell, some are Texaco .... I know the Shell stations use Thompson as their carrier.

Both Thompson and Mission are very well respected ...... my point however is in the Major Brand sign that is tied to an Independent mini-market..... and some of these independent stores look fanstic in terms of signs and branding.

Who carries their fuel? Who knows, will it be the cheapest carrier? ..... I'm not saying they are bringing an alternate fuel, but the indy stores often use the indy haulers.

The big haulers have accounts, they do not compete against other haulers at the hauling level.
Indy haulers do compete against each other at the hauling level.

So all this to say, pick a Major Brand that is tied to a major Mini Market for your local fuel.
 
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Claudio

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if it really was bad fuel don't you think VW would have told you to call the fuel station instead of covering under warranty? C'mon!!! ;)
 

Harvieux

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if it really was bad fuel don't you think VW would have told you to call the fuel station instead of covering under warranty? C'mon!!! ;)
I heard from a good source that VW really doesn't know the exact cause of these HPFP failures as of yet. I hear that VW's regional reps are gathering fuel samples throughout to check the specs. In the meantime, VW is covering failures under warranty. The question is, what if they find that the fuel specs are spotty to say the least? Did the fuel get worse since the R&D stage for the CR? How will this effect CR owner's in the future? Or, will it take that class action attorney firm to interject my thought regarding VW not engineering a component to satifactorily meet the environment to which they market? The unfortunate bottom line is that this nightmare is far from over! :rolleyes: Later!
 

thebigarniedog

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if it really was bad fuel don't you think VW would have told you to call the fuel station instead of covering under warranty? C'mon!!! ;)
Coming from a diverse working background, I can answer this one for ya. You see, in any business, you have to find the dumbest person employed (Bob for example) and conform your organization/procedure according to how Bob does things. I will spare you the work ethic (or Bob's lack thereof) rant and get too the point.

There is going to be gas in the diesel because the dumbarse fuel jockey (Bob) will occassionally pour some in the wrong tank at any stage of the operation. Therefore, to be successful, VW must design a car that can handle a little Bob, er....... Rug (like the prior generation vw's could) ;). Hence the meaning of the idiom: Don't hate the game, hate Bob (er.... the players :D ) .....
 

securityguy

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bigarnie - great way of looking at it and I agree but I have worked at places where there are many Bob's and that is what makes it even scarier:(
 

easyearl

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The unfortunate bottom line is that this nightmare is far from over! :rolleyes: Later!
The nightmare will become even more horrifying as engines become more complicated.

Volkswagen is currently developing a “Gasoline Compression Ignition” (GCI) system, which it says will be as clean as petrol motors and as efficient as diesels. GCI works by using spark plugs during start-up and hard acceleration, but relying on sparkless compression ignition, like a diesel, during low load situations, such as cruising on a highway.

The technology is planned to be introduced into production cars by 2015.

This will place even more premium on finding a sober mechanic.
 

thebigarniedog

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I don't think it's the pumps, actually, although most other manufacturers are using an older design pump.

I think it's the filtration and water separation.

The modern CR pumps are more sensitive to bad fuel, but both Ford and GM are using the same family of pump as on the US-spec TDIs, and they're not blowing up.
I think you are wrong. I know your attempt to analogize a 2.0 tdi designed for fuel economy to a fuel gorging CAFE exempt super duty truck fails to consider the additional lubricity features of gorging fuel .......
 

bhtooefr

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So, in other words, chip the thing, and the HPFP will be more reliable?

Alternately, you could bypass the metering valve, and then rely on the pressure relief valve on the rail, to guarantee maximum flow through the HPFP.

Still, the trucks aren't pushing THAT much more fuel per piston of the HPFP - about 200 hp per piston, instead of 140 hp.
 

El Dobro

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I haven't heard of M-B or BMW CR diesel HPFPs biting the dust yet.
 

El Dobro

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I heard from a good source that VW really doesn't know the exact cause of these HPFP failures as of yet. I hear that VW's regional reps are gathering fuel samples throughout to check the specs. In the meantime, VW is covering failures under warranty. The question is, what if they find that the fuel specs are spotty to say the least? Did the fuel get worse since the R&D stage for the CR? How will this effect CR owner's in the future? Or, will it take that class action attorney firm to interject my thought regarding VW not engineering a component to satifactorily meet the environment to which they market? The unfortunate bottom line is that this nightmare is far from over! :rolleyes: Later!
Yep, I heard the same thing about the VW tests. Back in 2003, M-B basically did the same tests. Even with the fuel at the 500ppm max sulfur, they found the lubricity numbers as high as 578 for Chicago and 556 in Denver. This shows that low lubricity is nothing new.
 

tditom

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BMW is also on record as having used different materials and coatings on their diesel fuel injection components to deal with the fuel quality here in the States.
 

thebigarniedog

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So, in other words, chip the thing, and the HPFP will be more reliable? .... [/qoute]

No and No. Please re-read what I wrote.

bhtooefr said:
.....Alternately, you could bypass the metering valve, and then rely on the pressure relief valve on the rail, to guarantee maximum flow through the HPFP.

Still, the trucks aren't pushing THAT much more fuel per piston of the HPFP - about 200 hp per piston, instead of 140 hp.
:rolleyes: It has nothing to do with fuel per piston (and I think you are aware of that --- from my prior post). It is total volume of fuel and lubricity from that fuel moving through the pump that differentiates these engines (and which makes your original argument --- wrong). Please don't tooefr this around again and again and again ......
 

bhtooefr

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OK, but the total volume of fuel in the V6s would, disregarding the metering valve, be the same as the trucks in question, as they've got the 2-piston pump. And, the components that wear are, I thought, the piston, its bore, and the shaft that the piston rides on. For those components, the per piston fuel would absolutely matter.
 

ZiggyTheHamster

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My response to "It was bad Diesel fuel, we're covering it" would have been "Can I see the test results?"

This sounds like a classic "it's not our fault and it's not your fault, but it's really our fault".
 
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