bhtooefr
TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
They use a CP4.1, but a different part number, on the European 2.0 TDIs.
NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation
- Thread starter dzcad90
- Start date
cd_booth
Veteran Member
Perhaps we should be looking at actual registrations rather than production figures for accurate percentages. After all, a car produced in 2010 may or may not be a 2010 model year car:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=369748
The data I have is for the US only. Not sure if the NHTSA includes Canada statistics. I'm guessing not.
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bobt2382
Veteran Member - TDIClub Contributor
You have a point. Last year, when the VW sales figures were posted on the NHTSA website, I located my car. The car was correctly listed as sold in NJ. The car was driven about 400 miles in NJ before I drove it back to California. Basically the car should be considered a CA vehicle as this is where it is registered, where I drive it, and purchase the majority of my fuel.
I'm sure there are a few other cars out there in the same situation.
Not sure the quantity though, is large enough to significantly change the state-by-state failure percentages.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
People buy cars across state lines all the time, people move from state to state all the time. Generally, that would be an insignificant number. But, for New England states or other regions of the country, one might want to group certain states together when looking at failures especially if fuel supply might be of concern. The 2008 Infineum fuel survey shows that the West relative to the rest of the US has worst fuel relative to lubricity.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
The production data is by VIN and the state data is based on where the car was sold. One digit in the VIN is for the MY. So, the data that I presented is by Model Year as is all the data that VW tabulates using the production data.
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Blackheart
Well-known member
Plus3 Golfer...that's an informative scatter graph that's simple to comprehend! Thanks!
amy1000
Well-known member
grrr... Will the NHTSA read through the bs?!?!? My head is spinning fron trying to read this VW response and my blood pressure is rising.
Now what happens? Can the NHTSA look at this biased data and come to the conclusion it is not misfueling? This isn't the end of the investigation is it? I wish I was an engineer and statistician!
TDIJetta99
Top Post Dawg
Bottom line is that there has not been one single injury or crash related to a HPFP failure.. That's all the NHTSA is concerned with..
Ski in NC
Top Post Dawg
Yea, that's probably how the NHTSA thing will end up. Dead end. There still is a compelling business arguement to fix the silly pump. But that will be up to VW and Bosch.
FIX THE PUMP!!!!!
waltzconmigo
Veteran Member
plus3---could you explain the categories in the graph originally posted in 4530. sorry i am dense and do not seem to understand what "all", "no misfuels" and "alleged defects" mean. i would have thought it to be all, misfuels and alleged defects, anyway they to do not add up 100%, so this is confusing me. thanks for the great work in putting this together visually for those of us using the "cliff's notes" version posted to this site.
thanks in advance,
ciao,
waltz
thanks in advance,
ciao,
waltz
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
We'll have to ask VW. Apparently, some of the misfuels still fall under NHTSA definition of alleged defect as the spreadsheet shows an "X" in the misfuel column and an "IN" in the alleged defect column.
IFRCFI
Veteran Member
You seem disappointed that no one has died in a TDI......
tomo366
TDI Lifer, Member #68
.......
TDIJetta99
Top Post Dawg
I'm really glad that the HPFP issue isn't the type of catastrophic failure that causes injuries.. I think you might be missing the point, and so is everyone that expects the NHTSA to do something about the HPFP's.. The NHTSA is about traffic SAFETY... So far, the initial failure usually results in limp mode, and you drive home with a blinking glow plug light and no power.. Things that get recalled can, and sometimes do, kill you.. Like wiring issues that burn cars to the ground, ball joints that fail VERY prematurely and cause violent crashes, crappy brake pressure switches that leak and spray fluid on exhaust, sudden full throttle acceleration (not only toyota)... The list goes on..
The original mandate of the NHTSA was and is saftey. However the list of recalls and actions they have been party too shows an agency that uses its regulatory authority to the spirit of their mandate and well beyond safety. It is not out of line based on past examples for them to push for a remedy despite the lack of injurybor death.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Like it or not, engine stalling is normally regarded as a "driver irritant" from the risk analysis point of view.
tdiatlast
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Location
- Fort Worth, Texas
- TDI
- 2009 Sportwagen (boughtback); 2014 Passat TDI SEL (boughtback)
That's not what I've been reading in the HPFP failure thread. Engine stall in most cases was instantaneous.
While stalling might be a "driver irritant", stalling w/o the ability to re-start is life-threatening.
Dieselfitter
Veteran Member
Send this Youtube Video link to NHTSA !
dweisel
Top Post Dawg
Well,actually that's not so true anymore. Just recently I know I've added 3 Canadian failures to the State by State List on the forum here.Plus I had someone email me from Canada just yesterday that had a hpfp failure and was now fighting to get it covered under warranty. So, at one time Canadians seemed to be somewhat immune to failures. The recent current trend now seems to suggest otherwise.
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This is an incredibly stupid statement.
Someone is of course going to try and accuse me of making excuses but it does no good to cry wolf.
Ever since cars were first put on the road fuel pumps have been failing and causing cars to stall. If one was going to create a recall for this reason every single car on the road would get recalled.
The problem for most owners is not that a fuel pump fails, I've had more than a few fuel pumps fail and leave me stranded, it's the cost of repair.
amy1000
Well-known member
It's definitely not just an irritant, it's a danger, and scares the heck out of you when it happens to you. I was in rush hour traffic and had to get over to an exit. Almost got hit because of the stall...close but no cigar, thank goodness.
DPM
Top Post Dawg
voice of reason.
Plus 3 Golfer
Veteran Member
I too believe that it's the cost of repair that most fear.
But stalling is a safety related issue. The fact that cars have been stalling forever is not material. It's why they are stalling that I believe is the issue facing NHTSA.
In order for NHTSA to act, they must believe the cause is a material defect in the design. VW / Bosch's contention is that virtually all the failures are due to poor quality fuel or misfuels which are beyond their control.
The only argument that makes sense to me is that there have been many fuel surveys that have indicated the poor quality of US retail fuel. VW / Bosch should have known this and as such brought to market a vehicle that could detect / tolerate / not stall with such poor quality retail fuel. In fact, Bosch did bulid a pump for the US market that was suppose to tolerate the US 520 wear scar lubricity spec. and made subsequent changes to make the pumps more robust to better cope with poor quality fuel. It appears that these revisions are not sufficient. IMHO, the HPFP is simply not fit for use with the US retail fuel supply. Whether NHTSA finds such is the real question. It appears VW has dug in for a long fight if necessary as evidenced by their summary statement in their 11/30/2012 submittal to NHTSA.
This is two different things and something that is a possibility. Do I think that the NHTSA will act because the car stalls when the pump fails? No because as I point out, this happens with every car.
Is it possible that they will act because they determined it's a flawed design? That may be possible but I do not know much about their history of actions here.
Again, might they rule that it was not fit for the purpose it was intended? Perhaps so but then you would have a government agency ordering VW to fix something because the government refuses to make the oil industry abide by the rules they have set.
Blaming others and expecting them to foot the bill for the governments shortcomings is possible.
IFRCFI
Veteran Member
The open NHTSA case is the only thing keeping these out of warranty free fixes flowing from VW. It's a waiting game. VW is doing exactly what they should for their benefit...they have an above average chance of it being closed without action.
When the case gets closed, and it will get closed, this will go the way of the PD balance shaft, 01M transmission, DMF failures, premature cam shaft wear, W8 engines, and a host of smaller issues. When the threat of NHTSA goes away, so will the generosity. You don't need to look very far into VWs past to see the eventual outcome.
I love this car, and I don't worry about failures. But I won't own it outside of warranty.
You're right, but they can be had for a lot less than that.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Golf-Jet...Parts_Accessories&hash=item3ccbec388a&vxp=mtr
$839. This is a Czech pump, BTW and not an early new old stock first generation pump with no revisions. Seems to be a legitimate seller with a solid record, too.
I can buy a V8 shortblock for that. Hopefully in another 3-4 years we will be able to buy rebuilt ones for a lot less.
tditom
Top Post Dawg
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2001
- Location
- Jackson, MI
- TDI
- formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
This is not accurate. The very fact that NHTSA is involved indicates that it is a safety concern (meaning the potential for injury or fatality exists), and why they have an on-going investigation.