PD Engines - The Problem of Setting Torsion Value

Mako

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When we reference torsion value in the forum we should use the actual cam position referenced against TDC. Early VCDS positive was advanced cam timing, latest VCDS negative is advanced cam timing.
 

gtrosema

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05 Passat, Torsion value set at 0.0, after sitting a day or more it is hard to start. Have changed both tandem pump as well as in tank pump, I am lost. Once it does start up it runs fine, Cold weather making it more of a issue starting. Debating on moving cam sprocket.
I have another Passat and it's torsion value is 3.4 and it starts right up the same morning my driver did not want to start.
Thoughts?
 

whitedog

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05 Passat, Torsion value set at 0.0, after sitting a day or more it is hard to start. Have changed both tandem pump as well as in tank pump, I am lost. Once it does start up it runs fine, Cold weather making it more of a issue starting. Debating on moving cam sprocket.
I have another Passat and it's torsion value is 3.4 and it starts right up the same morning my driver did not want to start.
Thoughts?
Try adjusting the cam to see if you can get a value that isn't 0.0.
 

indysoto

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05 Passat, Torsion value set at 0.0, after sitting a day or more it is hard to start. Have changed both tandem pump as well as in tank pump, I am lost. Once it does start up it runs fine, Cold weather making it more of a issue starting. Debating on moving cam sprocket.
I have another Passat and it's torsion value is 3.4 and it starts right up the same morning my driver did not want to start.
Thoughts?
Fuel filter?
 

Mako

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Assuming the reading is accurate, you have a problem not related to torsion.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Assuming the reading is accurate, you have a problem not related to torsion.
Ditto. Start a new thread so you don't clutter up this one. :cool:
 

gtrosema

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Ok I was able to bump my cam pulley. Now it is set to 3.4 on torsion value. Started it this morning at 43 degrees F, turns over a lot easier and actually did start without running the battery down. One item down on to the next check, glow plugs?
 

whitedog

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Ok I was able to bump my cam pulley. Now it is set to 3.4 on torsion value. Started it this morning at 43 degrees F, turns over a lot easier and actually did start without running the battery down. One item down on to the next check, glow plugs?
Now set it to zero again. The problem with setting torsion value is that it can be so far off that it will read zero. Now that you know where you are, tap it slowly until you find zero again and see how it starts. If it's back to doing the same as before, then we know for sure that it's not a torsion value problem and it's time for you to start a new thread.
 

Ol'Rattler

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Bringing it forward...............
If you have any additional questions, give me a call. Answers below:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MPG MASTERS 1 View Post
Since I am apparently out of range of the cam sensor because I get 0.0 TV on block 4, my question are:
1. Does the TV number send that number to the ECU to tell it when to fire the injector or is that number only given for the mechanic to see where the cam is in relation to the crank?
The cam position sensor works in tandem with the crank position sensor. Cam sensor tells the next cylinder to fire. Crank sensor tells what timing.

2. Is it the crank sensor telling the ECU when to fire the injectors?
Yes and no. It must have the cam sensor feed or it's a 50/50 chance the crank sensor will get it wrong.

3. Since I am out of range and the TV is zero 0.0 and the engine runs fine, I wonder what or where the injector id getting its firing signal.
If you have a failed crank sensor, the engine will not run. If you have a failed cam sensor, the default is 0.0. The engine will default from the crank sensor and try option #1, then option #2. The choice being which piston is on the firing stroke.

4. (More Scary) Will the slot range on the pulley keep you from moving so far as to damage the engine by hitting a valve with the piston?
If you have the cam sprocket bolts centered in the adjustment with the crank lock and cam lock installed, you can move the adjustment all the way from stop to stop and not cause an interference hit.

Block 15 at -1.4 was .401/h, at +1.5 it was .601/h at unknown - value it showed .201/h, then I moved cam Clockwise a fair amount to try to get back in range and the TV still showed 0.0 and the Block 15 also still showed .201/h.
All Block readings were at idle.
We use the VCDS block 15 liter per hour block to get the engine to get some windage of the range of fuel usage. The lowest read will still be a range of about 1 degree. Once we find the range, we use block 13 for the lowest variance between injectors. We also will run block 15 at 2000rpm, looking for the lowest fuel usage. Usually around 2.4l/hr is relatively normal.

Will run it today and see how it feels but would like some thought from anyone that knows any of the questions, Thanks
 

Vekke

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I did my settings like Ol,Rattler wrote and it worked pretty well on my 1.9tdi 130hp engine.
Cars start values were torsio 0,0 and idle fuel consumption 1,0 l/h

I got lowest fuel consumption idle values between +5,5 to +7,0 idle fuel consumption was 0,6 to 0,4 l/h. My cars fuel consumption at 2000 rpm was only 2,0 l/h.

To see lowest values put parking lights on and close all electric things inside the car and take electric fan power cable off so it wont start to run during testing.


While driving the minimum idle fuel consumption is not the best for best efficiency. On this car the best fuel consumption at 15mg injection was 6,0 torsion value. Differences in max speed was 6 km/h124km/h to 118 km/h and in uphill measuring point difference was even higher 10 km/h 84 km/h vs 74 km/h.


On other car best values came when I moved timing torsion from lowest value 5,5 to 2,2 I got most power at 16mg injection. So the best torsion value is not same for each car
 
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Vekke

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I thought so too. I messed with the adjustment and realized I could only get negative values but it recognizes the adjustment. I can adjust it from about -5.9 up to 0.0. Fuel consumption(measuring block 15-004 I think) at -5.9 was about .40 and at -1.0 was .60. I couldnt adjust enough to reach 1.00+. I thought the timing was off but checked it with the timing mark on the crankpulley to the timing cover and the pin slid in the cam with ease. I am still stumped. The car sat for several months at a dealership. Can the pd injectors get clogged that quickly?

I tried to adjust one car which value was set to -4,9 idle fuel consumption was 0,8l/h. I was only able to get reading on -5,4 and after that values went off the limits meaning value was 0,0, but idle fuel consumption went down even to 0,4 liters which is about the min 1.9 can reach. I put the adjustment to middle and told the owner to get is sorted where belt was installed last time. So the timing was probably off one tooth.
 

beelgrano

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I bought a 04 golf and the fuel mileage wasn't were I wanted it to be. I started research and here I am. Checked with vcds and it said I had a TV of 6.9 at idle. Car runs fine, some diesel fumes on start up but goes away as soon as you are away. Do I just need to set the TV back to 0.0?
 

turbotorq

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Has anyone besides me ever noticed the hand written numbers on the timing belt cover. It's formatted the same as the group 4 field 4 number being -/+ digit decimal digit and there is a K and W next to it. German word for crankshaft: Kurbelwelle. German word for Angle: Winkel
Unit specific, factory cam timing spec? Maybe.
Polish people write the numeral 1 so that it looks like a capital italicized A without the dash connecting the slanted parts and that's what the 1's look like on the belt cover.
I looked into this a little deeper about a year ago but didn't uncover much.
I set torsion value more or less to this number (if it says -0.5, that's where I set it. A lot of them say -/+ 1.1 which I can't do. Makes me think they have a higher resolution tool at the factory for the measurement). When the cars come in, the number is typically considerably negative from the value stated on the cover. Belt stretch? Analogous to ALH pump timing dropping across the belt interval.
Just brain farting out loud here.

I think these crank locks are overrated, I just changed my stock cam out for a colt cam stage 2.

Found the TDC mark on flywheel, made sure cyl 1 lobes were facing up. Markedly the belt on the cam sprocket. Pulled the camshaft, installed new colt cam, realigned belt mark with sprocket mark, slipped the belt on the sprocket and slipped the sprocket back on the camshaft pulley. Turned engine over by hand to double check, started engine I'm -0.5 torsion.

No fancy cam/ crank locks, no fancy removal tools, no locking pins.
 
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B4Ugo

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Torsion vs synchronization

Resurrecting this thread to see if the minds of those who have posted in the past might have an idea if it’s possible to have a value of 48 (max value afaik) for synchronization while at the same time having a torsion value of -0.5?

I’m having hot start issues with no codes and thought maybe comparing the two values might give some insight to failed crank position sensors (or damaged/misaligned tone ring) when no codes are present to give insight.

I realize there are many reasons for hot start issues... Just looking for an answer that might help with diagnosis and also satisfy my curiosity.
 

Landmer

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Great thread! Took a while to read through :)

Does anyone have a clue what numbers that are written on my cambelt cover?
I can't figure out what they mean..
 

JETaah

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That looks like "132" which in terms of a torsion reading does not compute in degrees. Probably does not represent the torsion figure unless it is coded somehow. (Just a guess on my part)

The BEW, BHW, and BRM have different labels than yours.
 

dtrvler

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I think these crank locks are overrated, I just changed my stock cam out for a colt cam stage 2.
Found the TDC mark on flywheel, made sure cyl 1 lobes were facing up. Markedly the belt on the cam sprocket. Pulled the camshaft, installed new colt cam, realigned belt mark with sprocket mark, slipped the belt on the sprocket and slipped the sprocket back on the camshaft pulley. Turned engine over by hand to double check, started engine I'm -0.5 torsion.
No fancy cam/ crank locks, no fancy removal tools, no locking pins.
I totally agree
I've set the timing on hundreds of these cars and there are a few different ways to get it right. The term " mark and pray" doesnt really do justice to the experienced technician. I have used the alignment Mark's on belt and cam sprocket with crank at tdc when retaining the TB.
I have and use several different crank lock devices and I have never found anything close to the (earlier in this thread) reported value of 4 degrees movement with the lock engaged. In my experience the crank rotational free play has been much less than one degree.
 
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Franko6

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Landmer,

I agree, this thread is too long. I should create a synopsis, but it's a time thing.

The label you have is different than the US version. It appears the number is '132', but I don't think it is an OEM marking That was done with a Sharpie or similar marker. I don't think your marks on the label mean anything. Maybe someone wrote when a timing belt job was done... 132k kilometers?

What we usually see are very faint pencil marking from the factory, where the technician running the dyno marks the outcome. In the US label, there is a small white box in the upper right corner of the label. That shows the Netwon Meters (Nm) of torque. The larger box to the left of the Nm box, on our US timing cover label shows the initial Torsion Value (VCDS/engine module/ measuring blocks/ Block 4), set at the factory. The tech was very sloppy and even if you could see it, it was hard to make out. His 1's looks like a 7's. The decimal point is as Europeans use, a comma. But being pencil, sometimes we were using a magnifying glass and looking at the dents in the paper. The point is, the best starting point is what the tech set at the factory.

If, however, you have made any changes to the crank sensor, sprocket bolt and sprocket, cam, the chances are that you have moved the reference points. The crank sensor can be off a degree and still work. The crank sprocket can move about the same against the flat in the crank. So, any starting point marked on the timing belt label after any major block or cylinder head changes are useless.

As Vekke stated, the torsion value is the number that works. There is no exact figure, as any change in the crank or cam will alter the best torsion value. We have seen +5.7 and - 4.2 work. But as little as .5+/- can make a 4 mpg difference....Don't ask me to do liter/ km conversions... But 4mpg equates to approximately a 10% variance in fuel economy (FE). So, taking the time to get a proper Torsion Value is important.
 

dhangejr

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The latest in our thoughts...

The torsion value in engine module/ block 4 should be investigated along with block 15, which the third block shows liter per hour usage (ltr/hr).

By using these two blocks, you can sneek up on the best number for your car.

What we normally find is that the idle fuel usage is between .4-.8 ltr/ hr. At 2000 rpm, the fuel usage is between 1.6-2.6 ltr/ hr.

Before disassembly of the engine, we will try to get two torsion value numbers. One would be the number poorly written on the UPC coded label as seen above (I'm guessing that is +0.2) and the other is what the current reading for your engine. Sometimes, neither is available, then you go with what works and test the waters.

Our initial goal is to find the lowest ltr/hr usage @ 2000 rpm. Usually, the range is +/- 1 point. Once you establish the lowest fuel usage, we then include the block 13 results. Now we are moving the cam position to a point that the most equal numbers between all injectors occurs. This seems to increase the economy.

It is difficult to drive a flat enough place to get accurate readings. If a dyno could be used, that could increase the accuracy of the adjustment.

There are several variables to arrive at the best fuel economy that are not torsion value related. The #1 variable is the injectors themselves. They are to say the least, tempermental. We have a new game plan for injectors and are trying to get that ball rolling. But to cover some of the other issues...

The next fuel thief is the EGR/ASV valves. They are notorious for sticking and need to be cleaned maybe once a year. If the EGR plate does not close, you lose a lot of boost down the EGR. The ASV also will apparently stick and that will cause additional problems. The two valves are servo operating a steel shaft going through an aluminum bore that tends to get sticky with oily carbon. If the shaft were going through brass bushings, that would improve things, but I'm not about to engineer that fix.

The other culprits are the lift pump, which pressure can be tested at the fuel filter. The tandem pump, which can be checked by way of a 12mm x 1.5 plug with a copper washer under it. Idle read should be 25psi and at 2500rpm the reading should be 100psi. Without the pressure going to the fuel galley, the injectors are miserably slow to reach their power.

The rest of the sad story is how Bosch is treating the PD injector issue in the US. A ranking Bosch representative stated that there were not enough injectors to validate the company's expense to import the PD calibration machinery to the US. He went further to say that there aren't any qualified installers in the US.
My question is about injector balance relative to KW values.

Based on my latest VCDS analysis I believe when moving the KW from +1 to -1.5 the Injector balance had gotten closer to even. Is this to be expected?

Therefore, if I retard a little more to -2.0 groip 13 should become closer to balanced, AND at the same time l/h should decease also ? (I lost my before data on accident)
 

dhangejr

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Stated differently…
I believe retarding cam timing a will change the .8 value in group 15 closer to .4
BUT more important to me is I believe will it also help balance group 13. Yes?


Reason I’m here is because I was seeing weird behavior…
group 13 was showing CYL 2 & 3 at near misfire (approximately -2.5 , + 2.5) this was only at idle. I have seen as high as 2.99

Oddly when driving it would come down to more acceptable levels (1.8 & -1.8) and after retarding the cam slightly I believe group 13 is better balanced at idle and they remain more consistent while driving. ((-1.5 , + 1.5)


Backstory : new timing belt ‘budget’ stage 2 cam, reman pd150 injectors, hybrid 17/52 turbo, FMIC , all pd150 breathing mods vr6 maf housing.
 

osys

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My question is about injector balance relative to KW values.
Based on my latest VCDS analysis I believe when moving the KW from +1 to -1.5 the Injector balance had gotten closer to even. Is this to be expected?
Hi everyone! Very interesting topic, thanks for the tips on old and new vcds.
And, answering your question, according to my experience having 0 is the most adequate value, having this I've had correction +- 0,5 on each injector. After timing belt change (using position tools) I have -2,3 Torsion, which is advanced according to the latest VCDS and description on this forum. And I have inj corrections -1, 0.25, 0.25, +1. Engine is BRU 90hp running on mine custom mode with injectors from Golf 4 ARL Bosh 0414720039 UI-P 1.3. Injectors were tested before assembly.
 

osys

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Reason I’m here is because I was seeing weird behavior…
group 13 was showing CYL 2 & 3 at near misfire (approximately -2.5 , + 2.5) this was only at idle. I have seen as high as 2.99

Oddly when driving it would come down to more acceptable levels (1.8 & -1.8)
and after retarding the cam slightly I believe group 13 is better balanced at idle and they remain more consistent while driving. ((-1.5 , + 1.5)
Can you please share torsion values for both scenarios, just out of curiosity?
 

osys

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So just to confirm, - is advanced, + is retarded according to the latest VCDS? Ive got lost.....
 

dhangejr

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I’m still confused about that … I guess the negative is advanced ? And vise versa on some PD cars. But not others.

for my reasons it is based on what VCDS reads.

I have edc16 and it seems on my car the + is advanced and the - is restarted cuz when it’s + I got more pep and less economy. And when - my MPG improves and l/hr goes down also
 

osys

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I have edc16 and it seems on my car the + is advanced and the - is restarted cuz when it’s + I got more pep and less economy. And when - my MPG improves and l/hr goes down also
Thanks for the reply.

To be more exact Im running edc16u1 on custom 0281011955 03G906016FS 370811 for 0414720039 and what I notice is that for -2 going on spin up to -3,5 (low temp -10) according to VCDS is that the camshaft is late and after running hot gets a little bit of + Especially when the belt is arranged according to the blockers, but not arranged on the hot engine according to 0 (that's it made for) But Ive just forgotten to ask for that during the latest service :) It's sounds like more rought against the latentcy and engine delivery on running custom SOI DOI and other maps.
 
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dhangejr

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My car is aligned according the the lock tools well. Over on this side of the pond the general consensus is that zero is not the correct number. VW NA wrote a tours in value on the timing cover. Most are in a grande. This is where it was that from factory and where it should be set up a time out job. Even more than that altering the camshaft will change the correct time in value. My car does not have visible numbers written on it.

Each engine is unique and again setting it to zero is not really advised it’s just the base. I fact if the timing is off dramatically the reading will be zero . So it’s important to watch and see that it deviates away from the stored value.
 
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