www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > TDI Power Enhancements

TDI Power Enhancements Discussions about increasing the power of your TDI engine. i.e. chips, injectors, powerboxes, clutches, etc. Handling, suspensions, wheels, type discussion should be put into the "Upgrades (non TDI Engine related)" forum. Non TDI vehicle related postings will be moved or removed. Please note the Performance Disclaimer.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old February 25th, 2018, 19:36   #1
Jmaitland806
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Tennessee
Default Injector nozzles

Anyone ever just buy a set of .205 or .216 nozzles and put them in without having them calibrated? I have recently bought a b4 passat and it has stage 2 tunes. It uaed to have .216 nozzles but previous owner swapped them back to stock to use the .216 for another car. Id like to put some back in but wondered if i could get out a little cheaper and just drop a new set in. Any advice would help
Jmaitland806 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 05:52   #2
Mongler98
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northern MD
Fuel Economy: Race: 12mpg, Gandma:65mpg
Default

when it comes to mufflers, air fresheners, radar detectors, go cheep, when you put a part on your engine that is responsible for its ability to run, dont compromise on the part. have it pop tested, no debate, ESPECIALLY a nozzle that is responsible for putting fuel into the engine, dont want to burn anything up do we?
Mongler98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 06:23   #3
Windex
Veteran Member
 
Windex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cambridge
Fuel Economy: ʎɯouoɔƎ lǝnℲ
Default

There are a number of options to install nozzles on a B4.

If you want the best, go with DBW's swap service.

If you want to be more frugal, read up on what it takes to swap the nozzles in these injector bodies, and install them.

The key is quality control. You need to make sure that the nozzle and the install are working correctly. Over time, the springs in the injector settle some and pop at a slightly lower pressure. This leads to slightly less than optimal burn, but for years was OK with DIY replacements.

Every so often, a nozzle would get installed with no Quality control (check spray pattern, check injector balance in VCDS) and the nozzle streamed and cut through a piston.

If you feel up to installing the nozzles (CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN - Operating room clean!), and you have a way to check the spray pattern and injector balance #'s in group 13, then go for it.

Otherwise get someone to do them for you.

<- self installed several sets of nozzles with checking primary pop pressure (very expensive / more complicated equipment required to check/set secondary pressures), spray pattern and VCDS balance - never had an issue.
__________________

Proudly installing things where they're not supposed to go since 1996!
Windex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 06:27   #4
h4vok
Veteran Member
 
h4vok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Denver (ex MN)
Fuel Economy: 35 to 50
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongler98 View Post
when it comes to mufflers, air fresheners, radar detectors, go cheep, when you put a part on your engine that is responsible for its ability to run, dont compromise on the part. have it pop tested, no debate, ESPECIALLY a nozzle that is responsible for putting fuel into the engine, dont want to burn anything up do we?
I will second this. On these cars the injectors are vital to running properly. People have done it before, but unless you are going to build some simple testing machines for them you will probably have mismatched opening pressures and dripdown. I bought new nozzles and had them mounted over the summer and yes $550 is hard to swallow for nozzles + mounting. BUT the car runs better than it did stock and I know they will last for as long as I want to drive the car.
__________________
DLC520, Mufflerectomy, tuned, more linked below
My car thread

h4vok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 07:37   #5
Nevada_TDI
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Reno, sort of...
Default

One of the nice things about having DBW recalibrate and upgrade your nozzles is his warranty on his work. Yes it is a big chunk of cash up front, but for me peace of mind was priceless.
__________________
_______________
2001 Jetta GL TDI, Tinted, Ventectomy, Catectomy, EGR-ectomy, TDTuning, HIFLO .216's, Stealth 17/56 Garrett, VCDS Hex+CAN, South Bend Daily Driver 2 Clutch, DG Short Shifter, Frostheater, Baldwin Fuel Filter, Previous Diesel: 1983 Rabbit Diesel
Nevada_TDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 08:21   #6
Mongler98
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northern MD
Fuel Economy: Race: 12mpg, Gandma:65mpg
Default

$500 is not a hard pill to swallow considering fuel injection is the #1 biggest corner stone on any build, upgrade set up. Turbo is next in price and depending on what you get and from whom you get it from, the tune is the 3rd. those things are paramount and you cant go cheep or try and save a few bucks.
Learn how to weld, and save money by building your own custom exhaust, its not that difficult, same with a light port and polish on your head, cam work, and various other engine upgrades you can DIY the heck out of and save money, but this is NOT the place to do it, spend it when you need it. I should know, i have a set of pp.764 5hole nozzles in my AHU pop tested at stage 4 on an engine thats blasting out about 250~hp, Im dumping so much fuel into the engine that if its not warmed up to normal 170*F, it will hydro lock the bowl with fuel and do bad things. If those nozzles were not pop tested, i grantee on the first hard pull i ever did with them, that the engine would have a hole shooting out the side of it like a lazer cutter!

TLDR, this is not the place to screw around by saving a few bucks now vs blowing SH!T up
Mongler98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 08:39   #7
Jetta_Pilot
Veteran Member
 
Jetta_Pilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: West Hill, Ont. Mexico mid October 2018 to end of April 2019
Default

On my former 2002 Jetta automatic an acquaintance installed .205 nozzles out of the box.
No pop test! No expensive spray test et.
It was definitely an exhilarating experience. More Hp and torque. Never had a " blown" piston or anything else go wrong until I changed to my Passat and the engine was still going strong. I think some people are a bit anal.
Operating room clean? Give me a break, we did it in the driveway!
__________________
All LED interior bulbs. Several VCDS mods. Darker window tint. EVO skid-plate. Malone Stage 2, Malone DSG tune. Winpower Projector headlights. Angel eyes. LED DRL's. 24mm H&R rear sway bar.
Jetta_Pilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 09:35   #8
Mongler98
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northern MD
Fuel Economy: Race: 12mpg, Gandma:65mpg
Default

well, 520 or other large injectors you do need configs

smaller injection i guess its not as critical but risky as hell.

oh and as for clean room vs your garage work, as long as your clean when assembly on them, your fine, if you so much as get a sand sized or dust sized speck of hard crap in the plunger on the nozzle, you will melt out a piston, i guarantee you that. how does a enormous sized burning jet of diesel sound vs a fine mist? yea, ive seen the aftermath. there is a video of some Mexicans doing a nozzle change for this ALH they had, they were using welding tip files and wire brushes to clean the holes. the moment it fired up it melted the piston, they took down the video of the after math.

not one serious builder here will advise someone to do it dirty, another way to destroy the injectors are to let them dry out, keep them wet with diesel fuel as you take them apart and store them.

Small nozzles, probably ok with as long as you follow the DIY and stay clean, just dont touch the things your not supposed to. I would and have always paid for the pop test, kerma is not that costly.

here is that video, prepare to cringe, if you can make it though the entire video, its hard for me to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guYFnOMlR_k

Last edited by Mongler98; February 26th, 2018 at 09:38.
Mongler98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 09:52   #9
PB_NB
Veteran Member
 
PB_NB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Default

I put a set of .205 nozzles in the Beetle many years ago. I bought them from a reputable diesel performance shop. I didn't get them tested or balanced. Just put them in and drove.

They worked great and I ran them for about 5 years. I also had Digi10 tuning box. Lots of power but lots of smoke too.
__________________
1999 New Beetle TDI - Bosio 1019's, Malone S4, Skid Plate, Neuspeed Sway Bars, KW V2, 19's BBS-CH, Spyder LED's, EGR Delete, VF Mounts, South Bend Clutch, B&M Shift Kit, VNT17, Custom Side Mount Intercooler, HPA Big Brakes 355mm Ft/335mm Rr, 2.5" Custom SS Straight Through Exhaust, Colt Stage 2 Cam, 3 Bar Map.
PB_NB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 11:30   #10
Windex
Veteran Member
 
Windex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cambridge
Fuel Economy: ʎɯouoɔƎ lǝnℲ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongler98 View Post
well, 520 or other large injectors you do need configs

smaller injection i guess its not as critical but risky as hell.

oh and as for clean room vs your garage work, as long as your clean when assembly on them, your fine, if you so much as get a sand sized or dust sized speck of hard crap in the plunger on the nozzle, you will melt out a piston, i guarantee you that. how does a enormous sized burning jet of diesel sound vs a fine mist? yea, ive seen the aftermath. there is a video of some Mexicans doing a nozzle change for this ALH they had, they were using welding tip files and wire brushes to clean the holes. the moment it fired up it melted the piston, they took down the video of the after math.

not one serious builder here will advise someone to do it dirty, another way to destroy the injectors are to let them dry out, keep them wet with diesel fuel as you take them apart and store them.

Small nozzles, probably ok with as long as you follow the DIY and stay clean, just dont touch the things your not supposed to. I would and have always paid for the pop test, kerma is not that costly.

here is that video, prepare to cringe, if you can make it though the entire video, its hard for me to. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guYFnOMlR_k
Please stop talking out of your backside.

Nice version. Please provide one verifiable instance where you confirm that a sand sized dust speck melted a piston.

PP520's will install fine with a little bit of precaution. Make sure they're installed clean and check spray pattern and balance with VCDS.

Stop trying to scare people - we're gonna think you're a slightly less abrasive version of DBW.
__________________

Proudly installing things where they're not supposed to go since 1996!

Last edited by Windex; February 26th, 2018 at 11:32.
Windex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 12:22   #11
Mongler98
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northern MD
Fuel Economy: Race: 12mpg, Gandma:65mpg
Default

well im not going to go back to the scrap yard where we dumped a cummins internals after the aftermath of a nozzle hole getting deformed and putting a hole though the piston and the sidewall.
Here is a good read and this is exactly what happened to our beloved 5.9 cummins but ours was way worse damage
http://www.sacea.org.za/docs/sait%20...s_2_shrunk.pdf

"CONSEQUENCES OF POOR SPRAY PATTERNS
When a poor spray pattern exist, as described above, the following actions
usually take place:
3.3.1. Washing away of the oil film on the cylinder wall
Whenever a jet of diesel fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall, the thin film of
lubricating oil is washed away. This leads to dry rubbing of the piston and piston
ring on the cylinder wall. Due to the absence of the lubricating film, the friction
coefficient rises and excessive heat is developed. Damage to the surfaces,
leading to eventual seizing of the piston usually results. In some cases
accelerated wear can also take place. In the initial stages of piston failures, the
position where the jet of fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall can clearly be seen
on the piston crown and on the piston side where seizing starts. The damage
usually starts above the top piston rings and then gradually works downwards,
towards the skirt of the piston. The following photograph, Fig 9, shows such a
piston, which is in the initial stages of seizing. "

"Dripping from nozzle
Another possibility is that due to poor closure of the needle on the seat in the
injector, fuel might drip from the injector tip and wet the surface of the piston
crown. This then results in combustion taking place directly on the piston crown.
The protecting stationary gas layer, which normally protects the piston material, is
no longer present and this eventually results in melting of the piston crown, which
is shown in photograph Fig 10 below."


The effect of both these types of failure, is that the needle becomes sticky in his
movement and that bigger droplets are emitted and in some cases jets of fuel are
emitted from the injector tip. This would then result in piston failure and/or bigend
bearing failure.
The effect of the stickiness of the needle is that the seat of the needle gets
damaged and Fig 31 shows such a needle under the microscope, indicating the
rough sealing surface which is no more in a position to seal properly


here is another good read
http://dfcdiesel.com/warranty-info/failure-analysis/

The DIY for nozzles specifically says "Although this is an easy job, cleanliness is extremely important! The nozzle holes are very small and particles can damage and clog the injectors. While the injector tips withstand thousands of psi of combustion in the engine, having dirt stuck behind the tiny nozzle orifice is like squeezing out an apple sized kidney stone - you're at risk of a blowout."
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/td...placement-diy/
How am i talking out of my backside when i have had a few engines completly destroid by this, i was on the mechanics side of this build was was on the assembly of the engine, the guy (Francis) who worked for our company did the fuel system and he literally did this job in 30 minutes and did a piss poor job. other than a hole though the piston and the side wall, the nozzle had a hole in it and when we took it apart and scoped it with a microscope, the inside of the seat for the plunger had scaring damage like if a piece of sand or grit was bouncing around and blew out one of the holes causing a strait shot of fuel to melt the engine to death.

Right from kerma, i think they know what there doing!
http://www.kermatdi.com/injector-cal...otswap-option/

Last edited by Mongler98; February 26th, 2018 at 12:31.
Mongler98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 12:54   #12
Yourbuddysatin
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Pennsylvania
Default

Like everyone else is stating. Having DBW do the mounting and pop testing is a small price to pay for having assurance and a warranty the injectors will be tip top. Iíll say Iím a very savvy mechanic and I wouldnít attempt this myself. Just my $.02
Yourbuddysatin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 13:04   #13
PB_NB
Veteran Member
 
PB_NB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver, B.C.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yourbuddysatin View Post
Like everyone else is stating. Having DBW do the mounting and pop testing is a small price to pay for having assurance and a warranty the injectors will be tip top. Iíll say Iím a very savvy mechanic and I wouldnít attempt this myself. Just my $.02
I did the DIY nozzle swap with my .205's but after much reading and discussions, I got my DLC1019's setup by DBW. It took a while with all the shipping back and forth but I think it was worth it.
__________________
1999 New Beetle TDI - Bosio 1019's, Malone S4, Skid Plate, Neuspeed Sway Bars, KW V2, 19's BBS-CH, Spyder LED's, EGR Delete, VF Mounts, South Bend Clutch, B&M Shift Kit, VNT17, Custom Side Mount Intercooler, HPA Big Brakes 355mm Ft/335mm Rr, 2.5" Custom SS Straight Through Exhaust, Colt Stage 2 Cam, 3 Bar Map.
PB_NB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 13:33   #14
Windex
Veteran Member
 
Windex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cambridge
Fuel Economy: ʎɯouoɔƎ lǝnℲ
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongler98 View Post
well im not going to go back to the scrap yard where we dumped a cummins internals after the aftermath of a nozzle hole getting deformed and putting a hole though the piston and the sidewall.
Here is a good read and this is exactly what happened to our beloved 5.9 cummins but ours was way worse damage
http://www.sacea.org.za/docs/sait%20...s_2_shrunk.pdf

"CONSEQUENCES OF POOR SPRAY PATTERNS
When a poor spray pattern exist, as described above, the following actions
usually take place:
3.3.1. Washing away of the oil film on the cylinder wall
Whenever a jet of diesel fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall, the thin film of
lubricating oil is washed away. This leads to dry rubbing of the piston and piston
ring on the cylinder wall. Due to the absence of the lubricating film, the friction
coefficient rises and excessive heat is developed. Damage to the surfaces,
leading to eventual seizing of the piston usually results. In some cases
accelerated wear can also take place. In the initial stages of piston failures, the
position where the jet of fuel is directed onto the cylinder wall can clearly be seen
on the piston crown and on the piston side where seizing starts. The damage
usually starts above the top piston rings and then gradually works downwards,
towards the skirt of the piston. The following photograph, Fig 9, shows such a
piston, which is in the initial stages of seizing. "

"Dripping from nozzle
Another possibility is that due to poor closure of the needle on the seat in the
injector, fuel might drip from the injector tip and wet the surface of the piston
crown. This then results in combustion taking place directly on the piston crown.
The protecting stationary gas layer, which normally protects the piston material, is
no longer present and this eventually results in melting of the piston crown, which
is shown in photograph Fig 10 below."


The effect of both these types of failure, is that the needle becomes sticky in his
movement and that bigger droplets are emitted and in some cases jets of fuel are
emitted from the injector tip. This would then result in piston failure and/or bigend
bearing failure.
The effect of the stickiness of the needle is that the seat of the needle gets
damaged and Fig 31 shows such a needle under the microscope, indicating the
rough sealing surface which is no more in a position to seal properly


here is another good read
http://dfcdiesel.com/warranty-info/failure-analysis/

The DIY for nozzles specifically says "Although this is an easy job, cleanliness is extremely important! The nozzle holes are very small and particles can damage and clog the injectors. While the injector tips withstand thousands of psi of combustion in the engine, having dirt stuck behind the tiny nozzle orifice is like squeezing out an apple sized kidney stone - you're at risk of a blowout."
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/wiki/td...placement-diy/
How am i talking out of my backside when i have had a few engines completly destroid by this, i was on the mechanics side of this build was was on the assembly of the engine, the guy (Francis) who worked for our company did the fuel system and he literally did this job in 30 minutes and did a piss poor job. other than a hole though the piston and the side wall, the nozzle had a hole in it and when we took it apart and scoped it with a microscope, the inside of the seat for the plunger had scaring damage like if a piece of sand or grit was bouncing around and blew out one of the holes causing a strait shot of fuel to melt the engine to death.

Right from kerma, i think they know what there doing!
http://www.kermatdi.com/injector-cal...otswap-option/
Again, please provide non-anecdotal evidence where a nozzle install melted a piston.

Your first link details fuel quality in South Africa, and the problems caused by poor fuel, but has nothing to do with nozzle installation or replacement.

Your second link has to do with engine failure analysis, and has one section on melted pistons, but many other failures which again have nothing to do with nozzles. The section about melted pistons does mention improper spray pattern, but again nothing to do with nozzle replacements.

The remaining links are the myturbodiesel DIY and a shameless plug for Kerma and DBW.

Your direct experience with a nozzle install gone bad?
__________________

Proudly installing things where they're not supposed to go since 1996!
Windex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old February 26th, 2018, 14:10   #15
Mongler98
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Northern MD
Fuel Economy: Race: 12mpg, Gandma:65mpg
Default

if you say so!, you have something against kerma or DBW?
Mongler98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Injector Nozzles pl4life52 Private TDI Items for Sale/Wanted 5 January 20th, 2016 09:02
Injector Nozzles MetalKrook VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 4 December 8th, 2014 17:51
injector nozzles?? spen VW MKIII-A3/B4 TDIs 3 July 18th, 2013 14:11
looking for Injector Nozzles vk_bigTDI TDI 101 1 May 4th, 2008 15:24
Injector nozzles SERGIO SOUSA TDI 101 6 March 3rd, 2008 04:12


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.21119 seconds with 13 queries
[Output: 141.92 Kb. compressed to 120.33 Kb. by saving 21.60 Kb. (15.22%)]