GoFaster
Moderator at Large
$5100 is not the "compensation amount". $5100 is simply the minimum buyback number no matter how much mileage is on the vehicle.
How to do your buyback calculations (& post them here!)
- Thread starter da_jokker
- Start date
Chacko
Well-known member
I've read the same calculation sheets as you. VW has stated the minimum compensation (their words and not mine) is $5100.
If your car has enough mileage on it that it's value on the open market is $0 then you are still getting $5100. That is the very definition of a compensation and you confirmed it's a fixed amount. Thank you for making my point for me.
Take the buy back #, make your mileage adjustment, and subtract $5100. Because we both agree the $5100 is the compensation amount. The other value is calculated as you would any other vehicle: Age, Mileage, Condition*, Options etc...
njn63
Active member
There is no "compensation" amount. You are being made whole by getting the value of your car in September 2015 ($13,150).
You would get the "compensation amount" if you planned to keep your car as they need to reimburse you for your lower resale value when your car is sold at a later date.
Using my own personal example: I figured my car was worth ~15k when the dieselgate news hit and I'm getting 16k (plus the $1,000 from late last year). I'm not getting rich through this but I feel like that is a more than fair offer.
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Chacko
Well-known member
Not correct. Look at the mileage adjustment sheet the $5100 is not a variable. It is a constant that is part of the valuation equation. It's the Minimum that any owner is to receive above and beyond the value of the car including a car that would happen to have a $0 value.
VW is saying a 2009 with 85,001 - 90,000 miles is $13,747 with the $5100. Then you adjust for transmission, Nav, Sunroof, mileage. It's right there in black and white on the adjustment sheet.
Then tell me on the Jetta mileage adjustment table the WHY of the $5100 number? What does that number represent?
I'm honestly trying to see this from the other angle. The only thing I've managed to come up with is:
"
Cash Payments:
Class members will also receive cash payments in addition to the Buyback value or approved modification. The amount is the same whether one participates in the Buyback or modification program. The settlement agreement includes a formula for how this cash payment is determined. For example, most owners who purchased a 2.0-liter vehicle before September 18, 2015 will be eligible for a payment ranging from $5,100 to approximately $10,000 per vehicle. This cash is to be paid on top of the September 2015 Clean Trade-in value for class members participating in the Buyback Program. Benefits to class members cannot be reduced by attorneys’ fees. Fees and costs must be paid in addition by Volkswagen as approved by the Court."
My read is that this is the $5100 in the mileage adjustment equation. I'm ready to be corrected. But so far nothing has changed my mind and that this settlement is diminishing the PPV value of our cars.
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njn63
Active member
I thought you were talking about the "modification" amount.
Read the buyback section again, important part is bolded:
Read the buyback section again, important part is bolded:
You're referencing private party value instead of the trade in value that they're using.http://www.cand.uscourts.gov/crb/vwmdl/proposed-settlement said:
Chacko
Well-known member
Ding, Ding, Ding.... We have a winner. I'm not trading my car in... I'm selling it. I'm a private party. I want private party value for my car after features, trim level, and mileage are figured in.
Then toss in $5100 in cash and let me walk away.
Trade in value takes about $2000 out of my pocket. If someone were to reach into your pocket and remove $2000 how would you react? The compensation is an entirely different matter. I'll deal with that on it's own merits.
njn63
Active member
If someone is giving me 3k over what something is worth I'm not going to be too worried about it. They're not "reaching in my pocket and taking 2k" just because I'm not getting 5k over what it is worth.
If VW had gone off of private party values they would have adjusted the cash compensation added to it to reach the same total amount.
If VW had gone off of private party values they would have adjusted the cash compensation added to it to reach the same total amount.
Chacko
Well-known member
I get that point. It's not lost on me. But VW had to know the blow back about valuing the cars at trade in when cars aren't being traded in. They are being sold back.
I and others are taking them to task for this and I believe rightly so. This is why I keep the $5100 out of the argument. These are two separate issues and should stay separate to keep confusion to a minimum.
njn63
Active member
...let's be honest here. No matter what VW did you were going to find a reason to complain.
At the end of the day you are getting offered well above market value for your car and arguing over the semantics in how they reached that number is a waste of time. Good luck getting what you are "owed."
At the end of the day you are getting offered well above market value for your car and arguing over the semantics in how they reached that number is a waste of time. Good luck getting what you are "owed."
Rico567
Top Post Dawg
^^^^^^
A good point. Anyone is free to opt out of the settlement and pursue other avenues to get what they think is fair. And good luck with that.
According to the settlement tables, if we hang onto our Passat until the end of the buyback period, we will have bought a new car and driven it for 5 years for less than $500, of course not counting fuel and maintenance. I believe that this is fair.
2015vwgolfdiesel
Top Post Dawg
Seems the deal gets better the longer you take to finalize it.
autdi
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2004
- Location
- Alabama
- TDI
- 2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
Two part to get the number:
1. Vehicle value - NADA pre-9/15 clean trade +- options +- mileage adjusted back to 9/15 at 1042 a month
2. Owner Restitution - 20% of 1 + $2986.73 (minimum $5100)
So the only real question remaining is if NADA value is accurate or not, and if not, proving it. You could look at if there was a means to pull autotrader or cars.com adds that were posted 9/1/15 from somewhere. That's going to be the bulk of the cars offered for sale, if you run the numbers and none could be bought for the base + mileage (no 1042 adjustment, the car is already back at 9/15) + options, you have a valid complaint.
DOJ requires replacement retail price, that's what a list of adverts from 9/1/15 would provide. It would be interesting to see if there is systematic undervalue in the method.
Chacko
Well-known member
So you can't debunk the $5100 in compensation? Just like I thought.
I am being honest. It's a distrust of VW dealing fairly that is at the heart of the issue.
Don't co-mingle the buy back and 'compensation' and then apply, what is confusing to a lot of people, what looks like a math word problem.
Just provide a way to value the car plus the FIXED compensation. It's that simple.
6 months ago I was calling for PPV + 20% of the MSRP as of August 2016. That's much easier to understand. Another disingenuous portion of this is that this cheating was known in June of 2016 to the public and not September and the actual cheating was discovered in 2014.
Chacko
Well-known member
Thanks. Why is this lost on so many?
CraziFuzzy
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2011
- Location
- Jurupa Valley
- TDI
- '09 JSW (GoneBack) - replaced with '15 Azera and '16 Fiat 500e.
NADA is far more respected as being accurate than KBB, or 'listings on autotrader'. NADA tracks actual completed sales, NOT listings - which is why banks and insurance companies trust NADA far more than they do KBB. If anything, the only issue some might have is using the NADA trade-in value - but after you add the 20%, you are up higher than the retail values anyway - the older ones even get an additional boost due to the 5,100 minimum pushing the total up a few hundred more as well.
autdi
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2004
- Location
- Alabama
- TDI
- 2000 NB, 2003 NB, 2006 Touareg, 2015 Jetta, 2013 Beetle, 2013 Touareg
Like you said, the computation was put together like a story problem. Folks can't do math, see a big Column 1 number and ignore how it came to be.
That's one of the comments to the FTC whenever they open their comment period. Actively helping to further the confusion. There's two parts, buying the car back, and paying for the cheat. Using the pay for the cheat money to make the car value look better is simply wrong. One should on the surface be able to determine, this is what my car is worth, this is what the settlement for cheating is, not have to figure it out. But they want folks to jump for a big number they see, without understanding what it is.
njn63
Active member
It's more that people don't care. I have better things to worry about than how VW arrived at giving me well over market value in September 2015 for my car. I don't see how anything they did means I should receive $5100 in damages (on top of the retail value of my car) and would love to hear how any of you justify that number independent of the total settlement amount.
You guys are losing the forest for the trees. When you trade in a car do you worry that the amount they are giving for the trade in is full value or do you look at the entire deal?
Chacko
Well-known member
Thanks. This is the only point I'm trying to make the NADA values are stratified based on how the vehicle is being sold.
I mean why not look at auction value if we are to be pedantic?
My complaint isn't the compensation. I'll take 20% + $2900. Just base it on the PPV and not the trade in.
Then I'll be satisfied and felt treated fairly by VW. Sorry that some feel I'm asking for too much. Please remember I don't get input on the 'compensation' but I should be allowed to complain about the private sale value.
2015vwgolfdiesel
Top Post Dawg
Your feelings do matter
AFAIAC ~~~~ complain all you want.
Individually (now) I'm OK ~~ more or less.
But 10-11 months ago people (me included) were messed over big time, emotionally and financially (as their car dropped to heck and back)
Thing I remember most (after joining the CAS) were the skeptics saying we were foolish and the sharks would get all, and we would get a coupon for a car wash.
Personally, I intend to (politely) write the Judge ~~ Can't hurt, and I will feel like I had a (small) say in this mess.
2015vwgolfdiesel
Top Post Dawg
A trade-in is a (2) two part transaction.
If you sell your car (on the curbstone) you should be able to profit by many $$$$s ~~~ really works well for persons who have low mile, garage kept, one owner cars.
Then you are free to buy your new ride at the cheapest (clean) net price.
2015vwgolfdiesel
Top Post Dawg
My used cars have always been curbstone value.
More or less last year, when I sold wife's Camry, and my VW gasser ~~ I 'bout doubled the clean trade NADA value
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
So, what's your point?
njn63
Active member
He's treating a private party sale as a 2 part transaction though.
Chacko
Well-known member
You'll make more $$, typically, by selling your car on your own as a private party vs trading it in.
2015vwgolfdiesel
Top Post Dawg
My point was showing empathy and understanding to persons who were harmed by this vw mess.Originally Posted by autdi
Like you said, the computation was put together like a story problem. Folks can't do math, see a big Column 1 number and ignore how it came to be.
That's one of the comments to the FTC whenever they open their comment period. Actively helping to further the confusion. There's two parts, buying the car back, and paying for the cheat. Using the pay for the cheat money to make the car value look better is simply wrong. One should on the surface be able to determine, this is what my car is worth, this is what the settlement for cheating is, not have to figure it out. But they want folks to jump for a big number they see, without understanding what it is.
There WILL be individuals who come out better (even MUCH better ~~ or worse) under near identical circumstances.
Even if it is 110% fair to 120% of the 450,000 of us ~~ many will have long lasting doubts about their final choice.
2015vwgolfdiesel
Top Post Dawg
DAMN STRAIGHT
Nearly double the selling price by going curbstone-ing
Trouble? Time? Work? Yes ~~ but worth it to me.
goodysgotacuda
Veteran Member
Both cars will be sold back to VW. My Wife is eyeballing a Tiguan, and I am looking at a GTI...a Golf R if I can stretch far enough.
Neither car was worth over $14k before Dieselgate, we will be cashing out. The option for repair is what we consider somewhat suicidal. The process will be plagued with delays, warranty problems, part installation errors, further value depreciation, etc. We are planning of washing our hands from the ordeal and cashing those checks.
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When I trade in, I make it a one term transaction. My offer is my present car (trade-in), plus specific dollar amount. In doing so, I've told my counterpart across the table 2 things. First & foremost, my offer. Secondly, the dealer is free to adjust trade in value and/or new car price. Money difference. Try it! And, when they return from trade appraisal, I have a slip of paper on the table with my guess as to their 'offer'.
aja8888
Top Post Dawg
Let the Okie sell them for you. He can get you DOUBLE those amounts!
Both cars will be sold back to VW. My Wife is eyeballing a Tiguan, and I am looking at a GTI...a Golf R if I can stretch far enough.
njn63
Active member
I think we need an interview process to determine true damage compensation.
"Show me on the model where the evil corporation hurt you."
*hands customer a 1:24 diecast model of a Jetta*