NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

TDImeek

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turbocharged798

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Oh man, that would be one serious recall if VW has to recall all CR TDIs made since 09. Seems like VW is now shooting themselves in the foot by sweeping this whole thing under the rug for these many years
 

bhtooefr

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It would get even uglier if they can't come up with a fix.

Can you say, "forced to buy back every TDI made from MY2009 to today"?

That would be a disaster on par with the Oldsmobile diesel, and that one wasn't even a critical engineering flaw, nor was it a recall, it was just minor flaws and poor dealer service!
 

El Dobro

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IIRC, if you complained about your Olds 350 diesel, you received the updated engine for $105.
 

turborod

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Let me see if I am clear on this. Switch my car insurance to Geico and pay a $30 /yr rider and pay a $250 deductible and my HFP pump is covered? Completely? Is there a ceiling on the claim. Sounds pretty good to me.
Really like working the torque on these SoCal messy freeways. Hate to get rid of it. I am fairly spirited driver maybe why my HFP pump and turbo went out at 105k and 114k. I will be moving to the islands soon that will cut my driving down by 90%.
 

pknopp

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It would get even uglier if they can't come up with a fix.

Can you say, "forced to buy back every TDI made from MY2009 to today"?

That would be a disaster on par with the Oldsmobile diesel, and that one wasn't even a critical engineering flaw, nor was it a recall, it was just minor flaws and poor dealer service!
They wouldn't get mine back.
 

RabbitGTI

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They should just make VW fix these things as long as the original owner has it. As far as Geico goes, if you drive fast or crash, Geico will frown on that.
 

timwagon

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Let me see if I am clear on this. Switch my car insurance to Geico and pay a $30 /yr rider and pay a $250 deductible and my HFP pump is covered? Completely? Is there a ceiling on the claim. Sounds pretty good to me.
Really like working the torque on these SoCal messy freeways. Hate to get rid of it. I am fairly spirited driver maybe why my HFP pump and turbo went out at 105k and 114k. I will be moving to the islands soon that will cut my driving down by 90%.
I believe that the mechanical breakdown coverage needs to be purchased when the car is les than a year old. Call GEICO to get exact terms.
 

Charrigan

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I have a cousin that works for Bosch in michigan. I asked him to get any info out of co-workers about the pump issue. He works in an emissions department so he dosent have direct access to this pump issue other than he had heard about it.

All they would tell him is that they are working on a solution. He said upper management and engineers are under pressure to be tight lipped about it.

I hope a fix is found and we have to stop worrying about failure.
 

MPBsr

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I have a cousin that works for Bosch in michigan. I asked him to get any info out of co-workers about the pump issue. He works in an emissions department so he dosent have direct access to this pump issue other than he had heard about it.

All they would tell him is that they are working on a solution. He said upper management and engineers are under pressure to be tight lipped about it.

I hope a fix is found and we have to stop worrying about failure.
You do realize that even if they come up with a fix, VW will never recall the TDI's due to the major expense. They'll just fix/repair whenever one comes in due to the hpfp failure until one day when they'll say "out of warranty and the mileage is way to high to be covered"
 

bhtooefr

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You're assuming that the NHTSA won't force them to recall them. The NHTSA seems to be on the ball on this one.
 

Second Turbo

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So obvious a caveman could spot it

turborod: > Let me see if I am clear on this. Switch my car insurance to Geico and pay a $30 /yr rider and pay a $250 deductible and my HFP pump is covered?

Seems to be limited to 100,000 miles. Not clear if that's original or additional miles, but I can guess which way the lizard would lean.

That seems to be the limit to additional details on their web.
 

darrelld

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You do realize that even if they come up with a fix, VW will never recall the TDI's due to the major expense. They'll just fix/repair whenever one comes in due to the hpfp failure until one day when they'll say "out of warranty and the mileage is way to high to be covered"
BMW took this approach until the ABC news story broke about the Bosch HPFP's failures.

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/bmw-recalls-150800-2007-10-vehicles-for-defective-fuel-pumps.html

Just the Facts:
BMW is recalling 150,800 2007-'10 vehicles to fix defective fuel pumps.
Two separate recalls follow a highly publicized undercover investigation by ABC News.
One recall addresses BMW's high-pressure fuel pump; the second is connected to the automaker's low-pressure fuel pump.

WOODCLIFF LAKE, New Jersey — BMW on Tuesday said it is recalling 150,800 2007-'10 vehicles, including the 2007-'10 335i and 2009-'10 Z4, to fix defective fuel pumps. The two separate recalls follow a highly publicized undercover investigation by ABC News that broke this week.

The first recall affects about 130,000 vehicles, including the 2007-'10 335i, 2008-'10 135i, 535i and X6 xDrive35i and 2009-'10 Z4 roadster sDrive35i to replace a defective high-pressure fuel pump.

"Affected vehicles may experience a failure of the high-pressure fuel pump," said BMW in a statement. "Symptoms include long-crank engine starting times along with the illumination of the 'service engine soon' light. In certain cases, the driver may experience reduced engine performance in a Safe Mode accompanied by a tone and the illumination of the Engine Malfunction light."

The second recall involves 20,800 2008 X5 vehicles with the inline six-cylinder engine to replace the low-pressure fuel pump. "In this case, should the fuel pump experience a failure, the engine will stop running and the driver will lose power assist for the steering and brakes although both the steering and the brakes remain operational," said BMW.

ABC News on Tuesday said it will air an investigation into the aforementioned BMW vehicles on Nightline tonight at 11:35 p.m. ET. It contends that "BMW and federal safety regulators have received hundreds of complaints from owners of 2007-'09 BMWs with the powerful N54 twin-turbocharged engine, but little was done to alert drivers."

ABC News said hundreds of claims have been brought against BMW for fuel pump malfunctions, including a recently filed California class-action suit. "Most of these legal actions have led to settlements on the condition that BMW drivers sign a confidentiality agreement, plaintiffs' lawyers told ABC News, according to a story posted on the ABC News Web site.

ABC News producers went undercover at two dealerships, where salesmen "readily acknowledged there were problems with some of the fuel pumps on some models," it said.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration had yet to post information about the new BMW recalls as of early Tuesday afternoon. But there were many consumer complaints posted on the NHTSA Web site about the aforementioned vehicles.
 

MPBsr

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BMW took this approach until the ABC news story broke about the Bosch HPFP's failures.

http://www.insideline.com/bmw/bmw-recalls-150800-2007-10-vehicles-for-defective-fuel-pumps.html

Just the Facts:
BMW is recalling 150,800 2007-'10 vehicles to fix defective fuel pumps.
Two separate recalls follow a highly publicized undercover investigation by ABC News.
One recall addresses BMW's high-pressure fuel pump; the second is connected to the automaker's low-pressure fuel pump.

WOODCLIFF LAKE, New Jersey — BMW on Tuesday said it is recalling 150,800 2007-'10 vehicles, including the 2007-'10 335i and 2009-'10 Z4, to fix defective fuel pumps. The two separate recalls follow a highly publicized undercover investigation by ABC News that broke this week.

The first recall affects about 130,000 vehicles, including the 2007-'10 335i, 2008-'10 135i, 535i and X6 xDrive35i and 2009-'10 Z4 roadster sDrive35i to replace a defective high-pressure fuel pump.

"Affected vehicles may experience a failure of the high-pressure fuel pump," said BMW in a statement. "Symptoms include long-crank engine starting times along with the illumination of the 'service engine soon' light. In certain cases, the driver may experience reduced engine performance in a Safe Mode accompanied by a tone and the illumination of the Engine Malfunction light."

The second recall involves 20,800 2008 X5 vehicles with the inline six-cylinder engine to replace the low-pressure fuel pump. "In this case, should the fuel pump experience a failure, the engine will stop running and the driver will lose power assist for the steering and brakes although both the steering and the brakes remain operational," said BMW.

ABC News on Tuesday said it will air an investigation into the aforementioned BMW vehicles on Nightline tonight at 11:35 p.m. ET. It contends that "BMW and federal safety regulators have received hundreds of complaints from owners of 2007-'09 BMWs with the powerful N54 twin-turbocharged engine, but little was done to alert drivers."

ABC News said hundreds of claims have been brought against BMW for fuel pump malfunctions, including a recently filed California class-action suit. "Most of these legal actions have led to settlements on the condition that BMW drivers sign a confidentiality agreement, plaintiffs' lawyers told ABC News, according to a story posted on the ABC News Web site.

ABC News producers went undercover at two dealerships, where salesmen "readily acknowledged there were problems with some of the fuel pumps on some models," it said.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration had yet to post information about the new BMW recalls as of early Tuesday afternoon. But there were many consumer complaints posted on the NHTSA Web site about the aforementioned vehicles.
So I guess there is hope afterall.
 

kjclow

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I have a cousin that works for Bosch in michigan. I asked him to get any info out of co-workers about the pump issue. He works in an emissions department so he dosent have direct access to this pump issue other than he had heard about it.

All they would tell him is that they are working on a solution. He said upper management and engineers are under pressure to be tight lipped about it.

I hope a fix is found and we have to stop worrying about failure.
You realize that if he shared any info and it was posted here that he could get fired for revealing corporate intellectual property. Of course no one is going to share anything with him if he is not on the team trying to fix this issue.
 

Niner

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I have a cousin that works for Bosch in michigan. I asked him to get any info out of co-workers about the pump issue. He works in an emissions department so he dosent have direct access to this pump issue other than he had heard about it.

All they would tell him is that they are working on a solution. He said upper management and engineers are under pressure to be tight lipped about it.

I hope a fix is found and we have to stop worrying about failure.
4 fricken years and they are still working on a solution? I call BS, they hope the problem just goes away unless NHTSA sticks a cattle prod up their blowhole for a campaign recall through VW.... Nothing more than a deny, deny, deny stall tactic that the complete design is defective and needs a clean white sheet to start with to build something else. Keep filing those NHTSA reports until someone gets injured or killed due to a failure.
 
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Niner

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I have a cousin that works for Bosch in michigan. I asked him to get any info out of co-workers about the pump issue. He works in an emissions department so he dosent have direct access to this pump issue other than he had heard about it.

All they would tell him is that they are working on a solution. He said upper management and engineers are under pressure to be tight lipped about it.

I hope a fix is found and we have to stop worrying about failure.
They need to be tight lipped, they are going to get sued.
 
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GoFaster

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I wouldn't say it's 4 years; that's the total time the car has been on sale. For the first considerable amount of that period, it was thought that the problems were entirely related to mis-fueling. It can take quite a while for it to sink in that they really do have a problem with the design. Then you have to identify the problem, develop a solution, and VALIDATE that solution - and to validate a solution like this, requires putting a fair amount of real work mileage on a fleet.
 

Thunderstruck

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Sounds like the fair amount of real work mileage that would go into ensuring a pump is up to snuff for its intended market before you release it.
 

Niner

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I wouldn't say it's 4 years; that's the total time the car has been on sale. For the first considerable amount of that period, it was thought that the problems were entirely related to mis-fueling. It can take quite a while for it to sink in that they really do have a problem with the design. Then you have to identify the problem, develop a solution, and VALIDATE that solution - and to validate a solution like this, requires putting a fair amount of real work mileage on a fleet.
When exactly did the Popular Mechanics Author have his HPFP die, and VW suggested immediately afterwards for his first fuel up that he head on over to Playa Del Ray at the harbor, CA to add some biodiesel to his mix for added lubricity?

Was that Volkswagen AG talking or Volkswagen of Santa Monica talking?

We know they fixed the car within a day or two for the writer, so the parts had to be in stock in Ontario, CA 50 miles away at the parts distribution center.

Misfueling has been a scape goat. Too many have failed by experienced diesel owner /operators. The probability is high with the first few fillups to remember it is diesel, but after that, it becomes ingrained or habit.

There have been plenty of failures from 5000 to 15000 miles logged, even more by the time 30 to 35000 get on the ticker.

2x the rpm, 1/4 the amount of rollers and 6x the pressure of a Bosch VE with a steel piston in an Aluminum bore lubed by fuel instead of motor oil, with no means of alignment for the cam roller like a rocker arm assembly for a valve train.
I do the math, and all I see is design parameters with no consideration for material limitations and MTBF being short. 12 years working with all kinds of aluminum as a purchaser, cost analyst, working with change orders from engineers in aerospace industry, where engineerng safety factor is a lot smaller tells me that Bosch cut every single corner they could, making this out of aluminum. This HPFP will forever be disposable until the bore is made out of steel and lubed properly with something besides diesel fuel, like motor oil.
I'd like to be proven wrong... but this is along the lines of making silk purses out of sows ears with the alloys we have available currently. Next we'll have ceramic lined bores or hard chromed steel bores.


Seems crazy here in the USA we designed and built the P51 Mustang in 102 days, and Bosch milks this for 4 years.... a crappy little pump versus a whole aircraft... without computers or CAD cam drawing or computer aided calculations. Something is definitely wrong with this picture. Bosch's little cash cow escapade monopoly needs to come to an end.


simple validation test... run 10 motors in a stand... 650 micron fuel, 625 micron fuel, 600 micron fuel, 575 micron fuel, 550 micron fuel, 525 micron fuel, 500 micron fuel, 475 micron fuel, 450 micron fuel, and 425 micron fuel, 1000 hours each or until failure. Log the failures. Do the same with 520 micron wear scare fuel and add gas at a ppm rate and log the failures. That doesn't take 4 years to do. Bosch had years of testing before selling these to Volkswagen too. Add all the years up.
 
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kjclow

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Misfueling has been a scape goat. Too many have failed by experienced diesel owner /operators. The probability is high with the first few fillups to remember it is diesel, but after that, it becomes ingrained or habit.

simple validation test... run 10 motors in a stand... 650 micron fuel, 625 micron fuel, 600 micron fuel, 575 micron fuel, 550 micron fuel, 525 micron fuel, 500 micron fuel, 475 micron fuel, 450 micron fuel, and 425 micron fuel, 1000 hours each or until failure. Log the failures. Do the same with 520 micron wear scare fuel and add gas at a ppm rate and log the failures. That doesn't take 4 years to do. Bosch had years of testing before selling these to Volkswagen too. Add all the years up.
Misfueling in the first couple of tankfuls is understandable with new diesel owners but a small part of the misfueling claims probably lies with the retailer having some level of gas or water or just plain crap in their diesel tanks. These pumps should be able to handle the occasional assult. Still at under 5% failure rate, it points more towards individual runs of one component or the other that is failing. Or maybe all the failed pumps were assembled on Friday afternoon.

5% failure rate is not based on any firm information. Just taking into account that the NTHSA info has not been updated for over a year.
 

scdevon

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with a steel piston in an Aluminum bore
Aluminum is the standard material to run a steel piston against. Steel pistons can't be run in steel bores. Aluminum pistons can be run in steel bores, but it's doubtful if an aluminum piston could hold up to the insane duty cycle and pounding from the double lobe cam in this pump.

I doubt that "penny pinching" was the reason not to use a steel sleeve in the pump. It would only cost a few dollars more to manufacture the pump with a steel sleeve.

(Yes I know that Bosch manufactures millions of units per year and a few bucks here and there adds up, but we're talking about a pump that retails for around $1100 bucks. There's enough $$$ room for a steel sleeve if one was called for).
 

Niner

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Aluminum is the standard material to run a steel piston against. Steel pistons can't be run in steel bores. Aluminum pistons can be run in steel bores, but it's doubtful if an aluminum piston could hold up to the insane duty cycle and pounding from the double lobe cam in this pump.

I doubt that "penny pinching" was the reason not to use a steel sleeve in the pump. It would only cost a few dollars more to manufacture the pump with a steel sleeve.

(Yes I know that Bosch manufactures millions of units per year and a few bucks here and there adds up, but we're talking about a pump that retails for around $1100 bucks. There's enough $$$ room for a steel sleeve if one was called for).
I agree with you whole heartedly. However, I feel the whole lower end of the HPFP should be lubed in motor oil, not diesel fuel. the assumption of using the fuel to lube and cool the pump is a flawed design. One only has to look at a 2 stroke motor with premix oil in fuel and the failure and seizure rates on those to know this pump won't likely last 150k miles.
 
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2010TDIWagen

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Noob- HPFP Failure this week @ 25k

First off, Hello to all. Unfortunately this is my first post, and not a good one. I got to learn all about HPFP issues on the 2.0 TDI this week. Started Monday evening on the way to dinner with my wife (she's driving) and the car's engine shut down instantly doing 50mph down a pretty busy 2 lane hwy in our suburb. We bought her 2010 TDI wagen new in Jan 2011. Never had an issue until this happened at 25k. No engine lights, nothing. Waited 1hr for the free tow service, towed it to the local dealer. Took them almost all day to come up with the diagnosis. HPFP failure with metal shrapnel. It is covered under warranty. Taking about 7-10 days to fix. put us in a free rental car for the time being. So I've read a lot of horror stories regarding this issue on the net. NHSTA does have a open defect investigation for this issue. I pulled the latest summary this morning. Says they have re-designed the pump 3 times if I read it correctly. My question is, once they fix this car is this something that will be happening again? I'm on the fence about trading it in the day we get the car back. My wife works on call for a hospital and travels a lot at all hours of the night by herself 23 miles one way. And she's 7 months pregnanent. So needless to say I've never been a fan of VW products, but this just puts me over the top. Opinions?
 

kjclow

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Did you file your failure with NHSTA and the other thread on here? There have been some that have had the pump fail a second time.

If I were faced with similar life situations, I would lean towards getting rid of it.
 

Lightflyer1

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It has happened to a few people at least that another failure occurred after replacement. But the number is relatively small that have this problem and even smaller still those that have it happen twice. I would consider keeping it as long as it is under warranty at least. You will take a loss more likely than not selling it so soon. Your wife should always carry a phone in case something happens. 911 or you. Many, many people have no issues at all. You just got picked as odd man out. Report the failure and circumstances to NHTSA if you haven't already, please. Take your wife out this weekend and stay at a Holiday Inn. ;)
 

2010TDIWagen

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^ YES I reported the problem to the NHSTA. Tues Morning. They confirmed the complaint the following day with a email confirmation record deal. I would like confirmation on the re-design/updated fuel pump? Or are they just giving me the same pump? And if we keep it I'll make sure we use Power Service diesel additive on EVERY tank, and double the dosage for their "maximum protection" as they indicate on the bottle. That may be the solution. I used it every time I filled up in my F250 Diesel about 7 yrs ago. Great product.
 

Lightflyer1

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Nobody knows yet just what was done in the 3 revisions of the pump. The investigation is what brought that out IIRC. PS may not be your answer as there are those using additives who have had failures as well. Can't hurt though.
 

Niner

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^ YES I reported the problem to the NHSTA. Tues Morning. They confirmed the complaint the following day with a email confirmation record deal. I would like confirmation on the re-design/updated fuel pump? Or are they just giving me the same pump? And if we keep it I'll make sure we use Power Service diesel additive on EVERY tank, and double the dosage for their "maximum protection" as they indicate on the bottle. That may be the solution. I used it every time I filled up in my F250 Diesel about 7 yrs ago. Great product.

You can add yours to the list here. You are not alone and it is a problem, bigger problem in southern states, it appears, and California, for some reason.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=299854
 
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