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VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) This is a general discussion about A4/MkIV Jetta (99.5-~2005), Golf(99.5-2006), and New Beetle(98-2006). Both VE and PD engines are covered here.

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Old April 6th, 2012, 11:03   #1
Lug_Nut
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Default ALH newbie needs help / advice

(Cause has been identified, see post 64)
2002 Jetta starts easily, idles smoothly, but revs only to 1800 and lots of smoke. I'm out of ideas looking for advice on next steps.

I bought a well priced 02 Jetta with the thought of making it a replacement for the B5.5. It needed work but I thought it was well within my abilities.
Here's a link to the prior owner's post on the same problems:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=340942

The summary of advice from that thread:
Turbo replaced (not by the poster, but allegedly by the owner from whom HE bought the car), tried with MAF disconnected, vacuum lines replaced, vacuum valves checked, confirmed cat not blocked-up, intake piping all connected, timing checked, intake is clear, vacuum hose routing confirmed, vacuum retention (leak test) confirmed, snow screen clear, anti shudder valve functioning correctly.
last advice to that owner was to check the quantity adjuster, the EGR, ECU, and compression. The owner was intending to swap in a known good pump, but the thread ended there and a car for sale thread was started.

So I bought it, and have gone through much of the same.
Heavy smoke?


Note the size of the ash chunks that came out after the car was trailered home.



Maybe the cam and followers are worn such that the valve timing is off, so I pulled the valve cover. YeOW! Sludge city!




I can't see well enough to examine the cam and followers. I drained the sump and this is the viscosity. note the angle of the pan relative to the plywood flat on the ground.


Buttoned it back up and ran a few quarts of sludge thinner through a new filter to clean things. Cam has slight wear showing at the lobe tips and a slight dish of the followers, but nothing I haven't seen before on other engines that run well. The oil flush didn't change the symptoms though.

All four injectors were swapped out for a spare set, no different. VCDS shows the injector balance is +-.5 (+-2.0 is limit)
Down pipe removed (eliminating a blocked cat / exhaust as a cause), no different.
Intake piping removed at anti shudder valve, no boost, but also eliminated the intake /intercooler restriction question, no different.
Pulled the head. Cross hatching is still visible on the walls and only a very slight ridge at the cylinder top. Valve seats look good. New head gasket, bolts, water pump, 100k belt kit, serp tensioner installed, no different. Still starts easily, idles smoothly, but can't exceed 1800 rpm even at no load and copious amounts of grey smoke. Compression is a bit low, but for 250k miles it isn't bad at 330, 345, 345, 330. Timing is just slightly advanced, QA is about 5.
All appears to be normal, so I get permission to use her Golf as a known parts supply.
ECU from her Golf (RC3, EGR delete, immobilizer delete) runs exactly the same in my Jetta as the stock Jetta ECU does, nothing over 1800 rpm is possible. My Jetta ECU runs her engine for a second or two, enough time to get up to 3k+ rpm, before the immobilizer kills operation. Doesn't sound like the ECU.
Swapped in her 11 mm fuel pump, no different.
Swapped in her MAF, no different.

I removed the (allegedly new) turbo as it doesn't spin as freely as I thought it should, possibly from bearing damage due to sludged oil. The vanes look to be in pretty good shape with no play in the bearings, nonetheless I pulled it apart.



Maybe this turbo bearing oil by-pass is the source of the "excess fuel" smoke? A pending run-away? More oil pressure at higher-than-idle rpm pumping more oil into the intake air? Compression causing ignition prior to TDC and holding back the rpm? The turbo needs to be replaced anyway to I blocked off the oil supply for a trial. No different. Same amount of smoke, same limit of 1800 rpm at no load.
VCDS shows no faults.


So I've cleaned and restored full function to the turbo (bearings are still bad and will need to be replaced, but first things first), oil sludge has been cleaned up well enough for now, ECU, injector pump, injectors, MAF have been swapped out with known good substitutes, vacuum hose integrity has been confirmed, solenoid valves operate correctly and properly control vacuum actuators for VNT, EGR and anti-shudder, timing and IQ are within limits. Compression is good enough. The engine starts an idles fine, begins to run raggedly at about 1400 rpm and can't get over 1800~2000 and bellows clouds of smoke.

I'm out of ideas, frustrated, and ready to eat humble pie.
What are your suggestions I try?
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Last edited by Lug_Nut; February 12th, 2013 at 16:43.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 12:26   #2
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Holy crap! That is well and truly sludged! Have you tried it with the intake pipe disconnected from the inlet manifold? Maybe the IC is choked up.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 13:11   #3
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1) Make sure your boost path is open - IC specifically, as previous poster said, remove the pipe to the EGR

2) Use VCDS to check your MAP

3) Check your timing

4) How easy is it to turn the engine by hand with the glow plugs removed? Should be easy with one hand.

BTW, how does your turbo oil feed line look like? That turbo bearing getting any oil with all that sludge?
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Old April 6th, 2012, 15:15   #4
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Those pictures are disgusting. Whoever owned this before needs a kick in the nuts. I read thru the thread but didn't see where you pulled the intake manifold to see if it was completely blocked. With the sludging inside I would bet the intake is completely blocked. I had a customer drive last week to our shop from Iowa and when I checked his intake it was less than 1" diameter hole in the crud and his engine was spotless inside and car was an 03 ALH wagon with less than 100k.

All that black smoke is unburned fuel, and if it starts choking itself out at that low RPM you got airflow problems not fuel problems I would guess.
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Last edited by dogdots; April 6th, 2012 at 15:18.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 15:36   #5
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The head has been off twice & Lug_Nut drove to the Ho5G for the compression tester.

This particular TDI has something somewhere that is out of spec. The Northeast Group knows that Our Lug_Nut knows these cars there is something weird VERY weird here .
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Old April 6th, 2012, 15:40   #6
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You removed the head, but if you did not remove the intake from the head, I think this is where you will find the problem. The intake clogged or the head ports clogged. Don't assume the intake is clean based on what you can see - clean it or replace it with a clean one. I don't assume they are clean until after I pass a 3/8" cable with a frayed out end through all the passages, driven by a drill.

I also had one car that was almost completely plugged inside the head intake ports. There was a solid cylinder of gunk on top (backside) of the intake valves.

Another thing I would check was that the oil drain was good from the turbo. Oil drain line not clogged and also that the crankcase was not pressurizing. How does it run with the oil cap off?
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Old April 6th, 2012, 16:11   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogdots View Post
Those pictures are disgusting. Whoever owned this before needs a kick in the nuts.

Lol that should be a sig
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Old April 6th, 2012, 17:07   #8
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Probably has a lot of junk piled up on the back of the intake valves.

Is/was it a greaser?
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Old April 6th, 2012, 17:28   #9
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What does the MAF see? What is the IQ? I'd thing with soot chunks that big (How do those make it through the cat anyway???) you'd be able to find something really out of spec.

Is the goop on the upper end holding the valves open

Just thinking aloud here...

You've exchanged with known good:
-IP
-Computer
-Maf (or disconnected)


What hasn't changed?
-Wiring harness (giving bad feedback from a sensor?)
-Injectors?

So you're getting tons of fuel (too much) but it won't rev? That sounds like fuel at the wrong time.

-J
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Maybe I should pay MYSELF to do bad work on my car!

Last edited by compu_85; April 6th, 2012 at 17:32.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 17:46   #10
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Either fuel at the wrong time or insufficient air...
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Old April 6th, 2012, 17:50   #11
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Are the plugs on the N75 and N18 flipped? Is the EGR valve leaking somehow?

You mentioned you unhooked vacuum lines. Did you try with everything unhooked?

Could the VNT vanes have been really stuck and made a ton of backpressure at idle?

-J
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Maybe I should pay MYSELF to do bad work on my car!

Last edited by compu_85; April 6th, 2012 at 17:53.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 17:57   #12
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I'm kinda wondering what happens if you remove both manifolds, block off the turbo oil feed line, and try again, actually.

I've run a TDI with no MAF or MAP at 4000+ RPM (couldn't get the upper intercooler pipe reinstalled, had to drive to get it installed with no pipe there, and when the thing is running in limp+naturally aspirated, you need revs to get onto the freeway), so it can be done.
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The really cool ToofTek made "Emperor's Clothes" injector fork risers only worked until someone pointed out that there wasn't any thing there.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 18:10   #13
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After seeing what was under the valve cover I would Da** near give up on this car. Definitely check the intercooler and intake manifold for build up.

Replace the turbo oil feed line or if you can remove it without breaking it then clean it out with wire pipe brush and degreaser.

I would also remove the oil pan, look at the bottom end, and clean/remove what you can.

Have you tried unplugging the EGR valve (vac hose on top)? At last years GTG one was stuck open and began pouring out soot.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 18:37   #14
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Working backward in answering questions posted:
Intake and exhaust manifolds are both clear. They were bottle-brushed through when they were off.
The back sides of the valves are also clear. I left the cam and followers in place the second time the head was off in order to permit rotating the cam to hold each valve open in turn for inspection. A light underneath (piston area) showed through into the manifold port with very little obstruction except a slight surface coating of soot.
I've tried with the exhaust open after the turbo by disconnecting the down pipe. I've tried with the inlet open by disconnecting just before the anti shudder valve.
The manifolds are clear, anti shudder is open, EGR is closed, turbo spins at idle.
VCDS output checks show the N75 and N18 are connected to the proper actuators and are operating correctly.
VNT (after I cleaned it) begins moving at 5 inches of vacuum, and is fully open at about 15 inches, smooth response in between.
Injectors have been changed with known good ones (1Z/AHU 220 bar Sprint 520 formerly used in my Cabrio).
Valve sludge has been almost completely cleared out now. I'll eventually drop the pan and wipe out anything that may still not be thinned out and drained, but the top end and turbo lines are clear and goop free.
IQ is about 5.
Runs the same (1800 rpm lots of smoke) with the oil cap off and the crank vented to atmosphere, slight vapor mist from the oil fill port but I suspect that's residual from the de-sludge treatment.
Rotating the engine by hand (19 mm socket on a 9 inch ratchet on the crank nose) seems no more difficult than any of the 1Z/AHU I have extensive experience with, the BHW that I wish I didn't have experience with, or the few ALH I've worked on.

It hasn't been asked yet, but piston protrusion above the deck is equal, no 'dead spots' of pistons NOT moving as the crank is rotated forward and back (con rod play is non existent), no odd noises when it idles. Loosening one injector fuel nut at a time (shutting down each cylinder) shows no dead cylinders.
The cam, followers and turbo will need to be replaced, but I don't think these easy fix items are causing the main problem of no engine speed.

The wiring harness has not yet been rung out, but VCDS shows no anomalies.
Accelerator pedal shows smooth response form 0 to 100%, boost request and actual are within a few units of each other.
I'll check the MAP results again as I don't recall them off the top of my head.
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If the quantity of carbonic acid increases in geometric progression,
the augmentation of the temperature will increase nearly in arithmetic progression.

Svante Arrhenius 1896

Cogito ergo soy (I think, therefore: Biodiesel)

Last edited by Lug_Nut; April 6th, 2012 at 18:53.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 18:41   #15
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What about the timing? How does it look when the car's revved up?
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