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TDI (Diesel) Emissions This is a discussion about emissions from TDI's. Pro's cons of Diesels (including biodiesel) effects on the environment and how they compare to Gasoline and other fuel sources for Internal combustion engines.

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Old May 14th, 2019, 13:53   #16
bizzle
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CARB doesn't need to know the flash counter to determine whether it's been flashed. CARB also doesn't need an exact image of the flash file to determine that it's been altered. If there is ever a question of fact, like whether the flash counter should be 1 or many, it's irrelevant to you as a driver because CARB will simply refuse your registration unless and until you prove to them your ECU is untampered. I would definitely not rely on some implausible story about VW technicians messing up a flash...I'm not even sure that happens. I've never flashed an ECU but I have flashed other hardware devices and incomplete flashes resulted in either a bricked device or an unflashed one--never an increased flash count The humor in this is it's always the offenders who try and float these implausible scenarios and wonder why they aren't credited as possible scenarios.

But given the problems you all described, which CARB is obviously aware exist since they were obvious objections to be raised, that's not going to be the mechanism. It may be an additional measurement, but it won't be the sole one. Tuned ECUs already have it rough in California. Gone are the days of electrical tape over a CEL...as of about 20+ years ago.

Smog techs don't crawl under vehicles unless someone makes them. On a diesel, they plug your vehicle directly into the DMV's system and look at the tailpipe to assess opacity. The computer does all the work and analysis. The tech simply pushes buttons to tell it when to start and end. There's no reason for them to dig any further than that, the computer tells all and it's live data to DMV. It would not surprise me at all if the system was also wrapped into VW (and other manufacturers) at this point.
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Old May 14th, 2019, 14:35   #17
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So am I correct to assume that in our case, all TDIs from 1998 on are subject to this new change?
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Old May 14th, 2019, 15:33   #18
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If what you're hearing is true, then I think the only safe assumption that can be made would be that all OBDII vehicles would be subject to this scrutiny.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 02:41   #19
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more proof of the unwarranted war the arshats who run CARB are carrying out against all auto class diesels in that hateful state....these things are so few compared to everything else on the road in that stupid state there as to not even be possible for them to have any enfluence on pollution levels anywhere in the state...so this is nothing more than a continuing of the attack on non-existent in any real numbers auto class diesels...

if the ashats who run carb really wanted to clean up any air they would have decades ago passed rules that required all gasoline powered cars to have ultra-fine pm traps....

since they still have not they are as a group on the CARB pannal once again shown how dishonest they actually are in their claim BS non-existent attempts to clean up what air???? no clean air to be gotten from cars that make up less than 0.001 % of vehicles on the roads of ca....
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Old May 15th, 2019, 11:24   #20
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This change isn't directed at diesels. It's for all vehicles in California. The amount of tuned TDIs in the state compared to gassers is likely a rounding error.

I'm not sure what you hope to gain by complaining about our regulations, but they don't impact you so it's strange seeing such a strong reaction to them from you.

CARB has cleaned up our air as anyone who has lived here since the 70s can attest to.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 11:31   #21
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Not jumping in either way on CARB regs, but they do impact the other 49 states to a huge degree with no input from us. They cause the automakers to make choices based on CARB rules alone. They can and have had a huge impact on everyone else.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 11:40   #22
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This change to require smog stations in California to test for tampered ECUs has zero impact on auto manufacturers or other states' regulations unless those states also decide it's a good idea to check for tampered ECUs.

Discussing any other CARB regulations that may or may not impact non-Californians is widely off-topic in this thread. This also only targets people breaking the law so I also don't care one bit if it does adversely impact non-Californians as the people whining are scofflaws.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 12:19   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
CARB doesn't need to know the flash counter to determine whether it's been flashed. CARB also doesn't need an exact image of the flash file to determine that it's been altered. If there is ever a question of fact, like whether the flash counter should be 1 or many, it's irrelevant to you as a driver because CARB will simply refuse your registration unless and until you prove to them your ECU is untampered. I would definitely not rely on some implausible story about VW technicians messing up a flash...I'm not even sure that happens. I've never flashed an ECU but I have flashed other hardware devices and incomplete flashes resulted in either a bricked device or an unflashed one--never an increased flash count The humor in this is it's always the offenders who try and float these implausible scenarios and wonder why they aren't credited as possible scenarios.
Oh, I know about bricking things, but I was thinking more along the lines of "Ok, I flashed it" "Hey, you loaded version <x>, I said to load <y>". "Oops, let me try that again"...
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Old May 15th, 2019, 13:15   #24
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I don't think the engine management is flashed like that. I suspect that, aside from the dieselgate fiasco, stock vehicles would have no additional flashes to their ECU at that level. The flash counter should be 0 or 1 (depending on where they start counting from) and that wouldn't change unless a major, nation-wide recall was implemented. Normal dealer-level flashes, like module updates, stereo firmware changes, and things like that wouldn't increase the flash counter.

How frequently these types of flashes occur is speculation on my part, but given the engine software management is so heavily regulated and there being no reason for a manufacturer to alter it unless compelled to by law (cf. dieselgate software taking over a year before being approved) it seems likely there wouldn't be an X or Y version to misload and reload like your scenario.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 13:20   #25
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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
I don't think the engine management is flashed like that. I suspect that, aside from the dieselgate fiasco, stock vehicles would have no additional flashes to their ECU at that level.
Re-flashes are pretty frequent, I think. My '15 had two re-flashes prior to the dieselgate fix. Some older cars have had multiple dealer re-flashes for glow plugs, EGR controls, and other items. I'm somewhat skeptical that CARB will have accurate data, especially for older cars.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 14:04   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
This change to require smog stations in California to test for tampered ECUs has zero impact on auto manufacturers or other states' regulations unless those states also decide it's a good idea to check for tampered ECUs.

Discussing any other CARB regulations that may or may not impact non-Californians is widely off-topic in this thread. This also only targets people breaking the law so I also don't care one bit if it does adversely impact non-Californians as the people whining are scofflaws.
Not off topic for what you wrote.

"I'm not sure what you hope to gain by complaining about our regulations, but they don't impact you so it's strange seeing such a strong reaction to them from you."

You wrote our "regulations" and "they" which implies more than just this one.
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Old May 15th, 2019, 15:04   #27
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Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Re-flashes are pretty frequent, I think. My '15 had two re-flashes prior to the dieselgate fix. Some older cars have had multiple dealer re-flashes for glow plugs, EGR controls, and other items. I'm somewhat skeptical that CARB will have accurate data, especially for older cars.
I don't know if those type of flashes actually increases the engine map flash counter, but they are documented regardless. If it's a required emissions update, like the one we had to do shortly before Dieselgate broke, one would not be able to register the vehicle until the recall is completed. There would not be a situation where some cars come in with 1 flash and can be registered while some cars come in with 2 flashes and can be registered. They either all have 2 flashes or they can't be registered in that scenario. When an authorized flash is applied to your vehicle, it's updated in the records. You can verify this by running your VIN through one of those online sites or contacting a dealership and asking if the vehicle has the update applied. They can tell you because it's documented in a database.

Also, none of this would result in a situation where a tech flashes the vehicle to Y (the fix) and then flashes it back to X (pre-fix) and then leaving it that way or trying to flash it with Y again resulting in 3 flashes, for example. So there's not a realistic situation that would cause a specific VIN to have 3 flashes when it should only have 1.

The only time the flash counter won't align with the VIN record is when the ECU is flashed by a non-authorized source, which is also how VW determines TD1. The same arguments could be made against VW in this regard. How does VW know that your car wasn't flashed 6 times by the last dealer during the recall that only called for 1 flash? We can either conclude that VW does not have well-established error check/correction in their flashing software and inadvertently refuses warranty repairs for people wrongfully and illegally, or they do have such systems and can determine (and demonstrate to interested parties) with reasonable certainty when an unauthorized flash has occurred.

It's trivial for CARB to access VWs records. In fact, my understanding is VW regularly updates CARB with such records specifically for registration purposes. I received notifications from the DMV when my vehicle wasn't up to date during one of the required emissions updates pre-dieselgate indicating that I would no longer be able to register my vehicle until the fix had been applied. California had a record that my vehicle had not been updated yet and they were notified directly when it was updated. All of that was handled without my involvement other than taking the vehicle to the dealership.
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Old May 17th, 2019, 18:22   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
This change isn't directed at diesels. It's for all vehicles in California. The amount of tuned TDIs in the state compared to gassers is likely a rounding error.

I'm not sure what you hope to gain by complaining about our regulations, but they don't impact you so it's strange seeing such a strong reaction to them from you.

CARB has cleaned up our air as anyone who has lived here since the 70s can attest to.
YES THEY DO!!! Both of my home states, NC & CO have both debated putting those stupid rules into effect....Also the EPA has adopted those stupid rules that
carb has put into place effecting all of the new vehicles anywhere/everywhere in the US & Canada......so these stupid rules do at somepoint hurt the rest of!!!
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Old May 18th, 2019, 03:24   #29
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CARB has cleaned up our air as anyone who has lived here since the 70s can attest to.
I object to CARB's predatory stance towards diesels, which dates back to the Nixon administration, but I have to agree that the air quality in the LA basin would be far worse without the regulations. Not that it's good. LA had 87 days of what's considered dangerous ozone pollution in the summer of '18. And asthma rates among children in LA county are far higher than the rest of the US.

Regardless, I can't imagine what it would be like without the regulations and their enforcement.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 12:51   #30
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The only way air quality controls are increased is in response to air quality that does not meet standards.


so if the air quality is bad, going after folks who mess with the programming seems to me to have a pretty good bang for the buck, and does not require any new technology.
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