Is it worth Owning a TDI anymore?

oilhammer · Apr 22, 2011

Oh, incidentally:

2011 Jetta S base price: $15,995 (this is a 2.0L non-turbo gas engine)
2011 Jetta SE base price: $18,195
2011 Jetta SEL base price: $21,395
2011 Jetta TDI base price: $22,995

Taken today, directly off www.vw.com

So, the CHEAPEST TDI you can buy, right now, starts out a whopping SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS more than the base car. For anyone bad at math, that is one seven followed by three zeros. $7,000!!!!

Keep in mind, this does not take into account the great incentives Volkswagen currently has on all the gas Jettas that don't apply to the diesels (read the fine print on the commercials), nor does it take into account the rampant dealer price gouging on the diesels. The actuall difference at purchase could be even $2000 higher.

Contrast this to my 1998 Jetta TDI, the diesel engine was about $1300 or so more than the 2.0L gas engine, and the rest of the car (i.e. trim, equipment, etc.) was 100% identical. The 2.0L 5sp Jetta (ABA engine) was rated 31 MPG hwy, the 1.9L 5sp Jetta TDI (AHU engine) was rated 49 MPG hwy. So for a mere $1300 more, you got the same car that got 18 MPG better fuel economy on the hwy, and I can tell you that owning both ABA and AHU A3s, this is exactly the case, if anything the TDI actually got consistently better because it really took no big hit with A/C use, heavier loads, or higher speeds. If you drove a lot like I do, you'd make the difference back in fuel savings literally in a year or two. PM costs between the two cars were about identical overall.

Granted the current TDI gets dolled up with more equipment (you have no choice) so it really more compares to the 2.5L gas SEL trim car, but it is still $1600 more starting out, and the fuel economy spread is not as signifigant as it once was.

Oh, and the base 2.0L gas Jetta 5sp is rated for 34 hwy, despite being a heavier car than the 1998 Jetta was.

Still a great car, still like them, but the money-reasons to own one (versus either a comparable gas model Volkswagen or one of the many other makes' gas cars that can be purchased for WAY less) just are not there like they once were.

jbright · Apr 22, 2011

oilhammer said:
Oh, incidentally:

2011 Jetta S base price: $15,995 (this is a 2.0L non-turbo gas engine)
2011 Jetta SE base price: $18,195
2011 Jetta SEL base price: $21,395
2011 Jetta TDI base price: $22,995

Taken today, directly off www.vw.com

So, the CHEAPEST TDI you can buy, right now, starts out a whopping SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS more than the base car. For anyone bad at math, that is one seven followed by three zeros. $7,000!!!! Keep in mind, this does not take into account the great incentives Volkswagen currently has on all the gas Jettas that don't apply to the diesels (read the fine print on the commercials), nor does it take into account the rampant dealer price gouging on the diesels. The actuall difference at purchase could be even $2000 higher.

Contrast this to my 1998 Jetta TDI, the diesel engine was about $1300 or so more than the 2.0L gas engine, and the rest of the car (i.e. trim, equipment, etc.) was 100% identical. The 2.0L 5sp Jetta (ABA engine) was rated 31 MPG hwy, the 1.9L 5sp Jetta TDI (AHU engine) was rated 49 MPG hwy. So for a mere $1300 more, you got the same car that got 18 MPG better fuel economy on the hwy, and I can tell you that owning both ABA and AHU A3s, this is exactly the case, if anything the TDI actually got consistently better because it really took no big hit with A/C use, heavier loads, or higher speeds. If you drove a lot like I do, you'd make the difference back in fuel savings literally in a year or two. PM costs between the two cars were about identical overall.

Granted the current TDI gets dolled up with more equipment (you have no choice) so it really more compares to the 2.5L gas SEL trim car, but it is still $1600 more starting out, and the fuel economy spread is not as signifigant as it once was.

Oh, and the base 2.0L gas Jetta 5sp is rated for 34 hwy, despite being a heavier car than the 1998 Jetta was.

Still a great car, still like them, but the money-reasons to own one (versus either a comparable gas model Volkswagen or one of the many other makes' gas cars that can be purchased for WAY less) just are not there like they once were.

So what direction would you like to see VW take with their diesels in N. America, given the environmental restrictions today and the economics of the auto business?

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 22, 2011

My .02 (I know I wasn't the one being asked) is that a first step would be for VW to use urea in all its diesels to improve fuel economy, driveability, and reduce complexity. Just look at the '12 Passat: bigger and heavier than the Golf or Jetta and gets better highway mileage. That's urea.

natrab · Apr 22, 2011

Coming from a Honda Civic, the Jetta TDI is absolutely worth it. I bought the car for it's comfort and performance. I was tired of commuting in a tin can that would get smeared off the road in even a minor accident. I have seen many wrecked cars and the German ones always come out on top of the Asian ones.

The Jetta TDI is fast and extremely comfortable for longer drives. The fuel economy still beats the Civic although that is probably offset by the extra $5-7k or so it costs for similar models. Granted I ended up dropping $2400 to rebuild my tranny on my Civic at 70k after it died from a crack in the bell housing.

Bottom line, if you are going for the most inexpensive and efficient thing, of course there are better options. If you want a great balance between efficiency and drivability/fun, the TDI is absolutely the best choice.

I had always wanted a German/Performance car and could never justify the loss in fuel economy to myself. The TDI solved that problem and I have LOVED my Jetta for the past two years.

MonsterTDI09 · Apr 22, 2011

With the new d/I cars with turbo have to run on higher octane to achieve the higher mpg?

You have to pay to play.

oilhammer · Apr 24, 2011

jbright said:
So what direction would you like to see VW take with their diesels in N. America, given the environmental restrictions today and the economics of the auto business?

Good question. I'd like to see the current base model Jetta get equipped with the same 1.6L CR TDI that the rest of the world can have, that would probably net that car around 50 MPGs, and only cost the buyer another $1500 over the base gas car. That way, you'd have the same money-saving option you did back in the late '90s when the TDIs first became available here. I know it won't happen, because they [VAG] cannot make any money doing it this way. This is also I'm certain why we also cannot buy all the other diesel cars here that others get, and why the only BMW diesel passenger car we can buy is a tarted-up 6cyl automatic only 3-series sedan, while Europe gets the 4cyl stick shift diesel (where it remains the most popular 3-series). Offer the more powerful fancier ones, too, but don't cross off the lesser cars for those that would choose them.

Almost any model car you can think to name is available with a diesel engine elsewhere. Cars from Toyota, Hyundai, Nissan, Chrysler, Ford, Chevrolet, you name it, we cannot have it. To be honest, given the cost and complexity of the new Volkswagen diesels, in addition to the lesser economy they give (although still very good), I am suprised they even bother to offer them here. But I am glad they do.

Ski in NC · Apr 24, 2011

A quick fix could be relaxing emission standards slightly for high mpg vehicles.

Say the top 20% mpg rated vehicles in a weight class get a break on emissions. Sort of start a race toward higher mpg??? Thinking aloud.

CR, with modest egr, dpf and NOx aftertreatment can be really clean. But with ever lower emissions, efficiency suffers. At what level of emission control can high efficiency be maintained?

oilhammer · Apr 24, 2011

Or we could just favor CO output, like Europe does, which goes hand-in-hand with fuel economy.

It is the fixation on NOx that makes much of the stuff on these cars necessary, and hurts fuel economy.

thesearcherman · Apr 24, 2011

oilhammer said:
Or we could just favor CO output, like Europe does, which goes hand-in-hand with fuel economy.

It is the fixation on NOx that makes much of the stuff on these cars necessary, and hurts fuel economy.

Wonder who in our gov. got payed off to do it this way? It did not happen by chance. Nothing much happens without some cabbage changing hands. I am not saying anyone did anything illegal. It is like this, a campaign contribution in another country, our gov. calls it coruption. Yet, here, it is encouraged and legal, ha, ha.

oilhammer · Apr 25, 2011

We just do not have, and possibly never had, any regulations in place in this country that truly favor high fuel efficiency. And if you read anything the automotive magazines put out, you'd see they are doing their best to brainwash everyone here into thinking we need 11ty Billion HP in everything that rolls.

Before ChryCo shut down the local minivan assembly plant here, I mailed them about selling the CRD minivan here (that was being BUILT right here, too). Never got a response. I included in that letter copies of an American auto journalist's article and one from the UK. Because at that time, Chrysler was discontinuing the gas 4 cylinder model here, while discontinuing the gas V6 model there. They continued to get a diesel, we got an even BIGGER V6. I'm sure, because of all the regulations, just like Volkswagen had Chrysler decided to sell the CRD minivan here it would have been more expensive than even the largest V6 model, but the fuel economy would have been quite a bit better considering what gas pigs the V6s are. And since they axed our gas 4 cylinder, there was no comparing there. I'd love a 30+ MPG minivan.

straightliner · Apr 25, 2011

IndigoBlueWagon said:
My .02 (I know I wasn't the one being asked) is that a first step would be for VW to use urea in all its diesels to improve fuel economy, driveability, and reduce complexity. Just look at the '12 Passat: bigger and heavier than the Golf or Jetta and gets better highway mileage. That's urea.

I dont know if Urea injection is the answer? This would increase the operating cost drastically. Bulk Urea can be purchased for about $3.75 gallon from the larger truck stops and the Autozone stuff is almost $12.00 per gallon!!!

Maybe somebody can chime in on the VW Urea product. I am sure it is even more expensive!!

With that said you still have the DPF maintenance/replacement

I like the cars but there future will be interesting

hip001 · Apr 25, 2011

I am gonna chime in here and just say that there is an EVIL force against us here in America. We ALL know there is the ability to make a very fuel efficient car/truck BUT someone has squashed the decision to do it!! I have the good fortune of owning a couple TDI's from the good MPG days. I DO NOT plan on buying a new car ever again unless the rated mpg's are more than what I currently own!! If I'm not mistaken, 900+ miles on a tank of fuel is a pipe-dream for any of the new cars being made!! My opinion is that todays marketing/advertising has everyone in a state of confusion thinking that 30mpg is good and if they can get 30mpg it will cause mind bending happiness!!
Funny side note: I saw a 2012 Ford Focus. 28city and 40hwy on the sticker for $21000. Special equipped with "SFE"(Super fuel efficient) logo on the trunk. Do you know how many ALH equipped TDI's I could buy for $21K? And EVERY one would STOMP 40mpg!!!! End rant.

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 25, 2011

Why are you comparing a used car to a new one? You can't buy one 2011 or 2012 TDI for $21000. And the the Golf is 30/42. Not much different.

oilhammer · Apr 25, 2011

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Why are you comparing a used car to a new one? You can't buy one 2011 or 2012 TDI for $21000. And the the Golf is 30/42. Not much different.

And that is specifically why if dollars spent is your #1 priority, the current TDI is not for you.

The new Focus is a pretty nice car, too. We finally got the proper [mostly] Euro version, no diesel of course, though.

Absolute Diesel · Apr 25, 2011

I think it's been proven via cost analysis that the lowest overall cost of ownership is something like a Civic/Focus/Yaris/Elantra. If lowest cost of ownership is all you car about, then no, a new TDI in any form is not worth it.

When I began looking for a new car I wanted something with power (V6 range) and a nice fit and finish. I've never owned a German car and test drove Audi and VW and liked them both quote a bit. To me, the TDI is a nice way to offset the higher overall cost of ownership of owning a German car. If I were buying a BMW or Mercedes I would very likely buy their diesel offerings for the same reason. If TDI didn't exist I would likely have bought a CC or Passat with the 2.0T.

I believe OilHammer said it best earlier in the thread when he said these cars are worth most to the people who would have bought a German car anyway if diesel weren't offered.

And to everyone comparing TDI to the Jetta S, this is not an appropriate comparison. The Jetta S is barebones as far as most options are concerned. The TDI is similarly equipped to a Jetta SEL (Leatherette, bluetooth, better stereo, 4 wheel discs). The TDI even forces a 1000$ sunroof on you for 2011 if I'm not mistaken. Either way, Jetta SEL is the more proper comparison to a TDI when you include the options for 2011.

IndigoBlueWagon · Apr 25, 2011

But the point is you can't get a Jetta TDI with the same level of equipment as an S. In the past VW offered the TDI in its GL and GLS models. I got an '02 GL with a TDI: crank windows, manual mirrors, no seat heat, no sunroof. Because VW forces you to buy a higher level of equipment to get the TDI the payback time compared to the 2.0 gas is much longer.

Absolute Diesel · Apr 25, 2011

IndigoBlueWagon said:
But the point is you can't get a Jetta TDI with the same level of equipment as an S. In the past VW offered the TDI in its GL and GLS models. I got an '02 GL with a TDI: crank windows, manual mirrors, no seat heat, no sunroof. Because VW forces you to buy a higher level of equipment to get the TDI the payback time compared to the 2.0 gas is much longer.

Understood - That makes sense then and I missed that earlier. Thanks for clarifying.

jbright · Apr 25, 2011

Absolute Diesel said:
I think it's been proven via cost analysis that the lowest overall cost of ownership is something like a Civic/Focus/Yaris/Elantra. If lowest cost of ownership is all you car about, then no, a new TDI in any form is not worth it.

When I began looking for a new car I wanted something with power (V6 range) and a nice fit and finish. I've never owned a German car and test drove Audi and VW and liked them both quote a bit. To me, the TDI is a nice way to offset the higher overall cost of ownership of owning a German car. If I were buying a BMW or Mercedes I would very likely buy their diesel offerings for the same reason. If TDI didn't exist I would likely have bought a CC or Passat with the 2.0T.

I believe OilHammer said it best earlier in the thread when he said these cars are worth most to the people who would have bought a German car anyway if diesel weren't offered.

And to everyone comparing TDI to the Jetta S, this is not an appropriate comparison. The Jetta S is barebones as far as most options are concerned. The TDI is similarly equipped to a Jetta SEL (Leatherette, bluetooth, better stereo, 4 wheel discs). The TDI even forces a 1000$ sunroof on you for 2011 if I'm not mistaken. Either way, Jetta SEL is the more proper comparison to a TDI when you include the options for 2011.

I agree with you. I did not buy my TDI to save money (true cost to own) but because it was the best driving (and appointed) car FOR the money. It was more of a treat to myself, a German road car I could afford. I've owned VWs in the past and know they are more expensive to maintain, as is most any European car. The fuel economy was an additional benefit. I was a well informed car buyer, having driven dozens of different cars in the year before buying a new car (rental cars as part of my business) -- nothing compared to the '09 Jetta TDI in terms of price vs. fit and finish and performance/fuel economy/driving pleasure. I admit, I did not know about the DSG issues or the HPFP, although I was quite aware I was buying a first generation model and that there are always risks involved with new designs (speaking about the engine here). Very happy, still love the car as much or more than the day I bought it. It seems to drive even better with the new ECM reflash I got last week at my 40K service.

Claudio · Apr 25, 2011

when i was in Italy i hada Ford Fiesta 1.4 TDCI (diesel), manual, i could get easily 25 km/liter (approx 62 miles per gallon), i think it had 70hp, but was perfect for what i needed, a cheap car to go to work (diesel now in Italy is now 1.5 euro per liter!!!!)
i used the gar to go on vacation too, short and long trips, and it was more than enough.
of course it was just me and my wife at that time, maybe was kind of small for a family of four (i always wonder how my dad made it with a fiat 127 and a family of four!), but as i said for a commute car here would be just perfect!
if i'm not mistaken i paid 12500 euro in 2004 for that car, it was 4 door and the middle level finish

straightliner · Apr 25, 2011

jbright- That is excellent fuel mileage that you are getting! Is that from the MFD or old school(pen and paper)? My 09 has a average of 37 mpg and the best it has ever got was 42mpg, it did this (1) time!

jbright · Apr 25, 2011

That's pen and paper. Every tank recorded and averaged. My MFD is accurate, tho. I reset it every tank and compare it to my calculator number. I've owned the car two years now. The first year was mostly highway and the second year is mostly city and the two average out to around 42 mpg. I do well in the city because I take the freeway most places and on the northside of Indy where I live there are many long long streets with limited stops and 45 mph speed limit. Worst tank I've gotten was 36.5 last winter and the best was 47 coming back from northern Michigan on the interstate at 70 mph (but I had many tanks close to that the first year doing all highway commutes to Gary and Indy). The car is getting better mpg now with some miles on it and I think the new reflash to the ECM I just got at the dealership might have improved the fuel economy somewhat (23H1 upgrade). Car gets mid to upper 40s on highway trips most of the time, depending on speed etc. Upper 30s (winter) to 40 or 41 in town. I moved down here from NW Indiana so I'm familiar with your area. Do you have to drive in a lot of stop and go traffic? Or into the City? One time I got lost in downtown Chicago and was averaging 26 mpg. Do you do all short commutes?

Absolute Diesel · Apr 25, 2011

straightliner said:
jbright- That is excellent fuel mileage that you are getting! Is that from the MFD or old school(pen and paper)? My 09 has a average of 37 mpg and the best it has ever got was 42mpg, it did this (1) time!

Not to get too far off topic but FWIW I'm getting 36-37 city, 40-41 mixed, and 44-45 straight highway. That is pen and paper calc and just letting the DSG do it's thing - no baby driving or hypermiling.

jbright · Apr 25, 2011

Absolute Diesel said:
Not to get too far off topic but FWIW I'm getting 36-37 city, 40-41 mixed, and 44-45 straight highway. That is pen and paper calc and just letting the DSG do it's thing - no baby driving or hypermiling.

VW wasn't happy with the EPA numbers in '09 and commissioned a private company to do testing and they came up with 38/44, which would be right around what your getting, as well as a number of other owners on this site. There's a big spread, though, which I suppose is normal. On fuelly.com most of the CR diesels are averaging high 30s to low 40s which I assume is mixed. Again, about what we are. Your comment about letting the DSG do its thing, esp. is town, is right on and something I notice as I learned about my car. You can drive it with a heavy foot or a light one and the difference is there on the instant mpg readout.

jbright · Apr 25, 2011

But back on topic. . . . . .

thesearcherman · Apr 25, 2011

I would check the speedo/odometer accuracy with a GPS. All of your readings appear to assume an accurate odometer?

curovo · Apr 25, 2011

Much as I like my TDI, here's a little bit of a counterpoint to all these glowing reviews.

On economy: I normally get 30-31 mpg on my commute which is about 14 miles highway/freeway with 1 mile of city at the end. I managed to coax 33 mpg from one tank and was tailgated, honked at, flashed at, flipped off, and cut off throughout the entire period for driving so slow. My best tank was 38.9 mpg on a 95% highway trip at 55-65 mph using cruise control as much as possible. I managed to get an MFD trip mpg of 41 mpg running down the freeway at 65-70 on cruise control from Sacramento to Merced, but I had a tailwind; by the time I got back home the MFD showed 39 for the round trip. Final mileage for that tank which included some commute days was 34. I had the dealer check it & they said that if it isn't showing codes it's fine; VW says they'd be pleased to give it a more thorough examination but I'll have to pay if they find nothing wrong.

Performance: pretty good, once the DSG finally decides to get around to going. But the DSG lag is a real bugger, I'm constantly losing the right-of-way at stop signs to other drivers because I take so long to get moving. And I was surprised the other day to find that a Nissan Versa's acceleration exactly matches my TDI's from 20-65 mph.

Fun to drive: corners great and rides well, no criticism there. More fun than a Prius or a Versa... but I wouldn't call it fun on an absolute scale. Certainly not as much fun as a $20K Nissan Juke, or a Mini CountryMan AWD.

Fit and finish: it's a VW, what do you expect?

Overall pretty good, but: the center dash fan grill rattled; the dealer fixed it after I complained. The overhead sunglasses compartment wouldn't stay closed, I finally bent the door latches so now it won't open. There's a groan in the suspension that after two tries the dealer hasn't been able to fix. There's a rattle somewhere above my head. I found two screws that look they're for door trim on the back floor; I assume they're extras that the assembler dropped and and ignored.

So... economically it certainly hasn't paid off for me. As far as overall value, I'm on the fence but leaning toward "no": on the one hand, I'm looking for a replacement and can't find anything else that my wife and I agree on as being better; but on the other hand, I'm more and more finding myself leaving the TDI in the driveway and driving my old A1 Scirocco.

nicklockard · Apr 25, 2011

curovo said:
Much as I like my TDI, here's a little bit of a counterpoint to all these glowing reviews.

On economy: I normally get 30-31 mpg on my commute which is about 14 miles highway/freeway with 1 mile of city at the end. I managed to coax 33 mpg from one tank and was tailgated, honked at, flashed at, flipped off, and cut off throughout the entire period for driving so slow. My best tank was 38.9 mpg on a 95% highway trip at 55-65 mph using cruise control as much as possible. I managed to get an MFD trip mpg of 41 mpg running down the freeway at 65-70 on cruise control from Sacramento to Merced, but I had a tailwind; by the time I got back home the MFD showed 39 for the round trip. Final mileage for that tank which included some commute days was 34. I had the dealer check it & they said that if it isn't showing codes it's fine; VW says they'd be pleased to give it a more thorough examination but I'll have to pay if they find nothing wrong.

Performance: pretty good, once the DSG finally decides to get around to going. But the DSG lag is a real bugger, I'm constantly losing the right-of-way at stop signs to other drivers because I take so long to get moving. And I was surprised the other day to find that a Nissan Versa's acceleration exactly matches my TDI's from 20-65 mph.

Fun to drive: corners great and rides well, no criticism there. More fun than a Prius or a Versa... but I wouldn't call it fun on an absolute scale. Certainly not as much fun as a $20K Nissan Juke, or a Mini CountryMan AWD.

Fit and finish: it's a VW, what do you expect? Overall pretty good, but: the center dash fan grill rattled; the dealer fixed it after I complained. The overhead sunglasses compartment wouldn't stay closed, I finally bent the door latches so now it won't open. There's a groan in the suspension that after two tries the dealer hasn't been able to fix. There's a rattle somewhere above my head. I found two screws that look they're for door trim on the back floor; I assume they're extras that the assembler dropped and and ignored.

So... economically it certainly hasn't paid off for me. As far as overall value, I'm on the fence but leaning toward "no": on the one hand, I'm looking for a replacement and can't find anything else that my wife and I agree on as being better; but on the other hand, I'm more and more finding myself leaving the TDI in the driveway and driving my old A1 Scirocco.

It's pretty sad evidence when customers with the money are opting for older cars! I did the same: came into some maturing stock options from work, could have paid cash for 2010 Tdi JSW, opted for 1998 BMW 318ti instead. I got 35 mpg on my 160 mile round trip last night. Wish it were better, but it's more economical than a Tdi by a long shot. Car runs great on regular. VW walked away from the value-conscious demographic in favor of the cheap demographic. Sad.

thesearcherman · Apr 25, 2011

I like the Mini also, but they take Premium Gas, and that's expensive around here.

TwoTone · Apr 26, 2011

We liked our TDI, didn't like VW. So far we are happy with our 11 Legacy.

straightliner · Apr 27, 2011

jbright said:
That's pen and paper. Every tank recorded and averaged. My MFD is accurate, tho. I reset it every tank and compare it to my calculator number. I've owned the car two years now. The first year was mostly highway and the second year is mostly city and the two average out to around 42 mpg. I do well in the city because I take the freeway most places and on the northside of Indy where I live there are many long long streets with limited stops and 45 mph speed limit. Worst tank I've gotten was 36.5 last winter and the best was 47 coming back from northern Michigan on the interstate at 70 mph (but I had many tanks close to that the first year doing all highway commutes to Gary and Indy). The car is getting better mpg now with some miles on it and I think the new reflash to the ECM I just got at the dealership might have improved the fuel economy somewhat (23H1 upgrade). Car gets mid to upper 40s on highway trips most of the time, depending on speed etc. Upper 30s (winter) to 40 or 41 in town. I moved down here from NW Indiana so I'm familiar with your area. Do you have to drive in a lot of stop and go traffic? Or into the City? One time I got lost in downtown Chicago and was averaging 26 mpg. Do you do all short commutes?

Good Morning,
I will have to ask about the reflash, maybe that will improve the mpg? I live in Hobart and yes i drive into Chicago everyday! Its mostly highway(approx 40 miles each way) but there is the stop and go issue at times. I have checked the fuel use on trips into Michigan and Wisconsin and its about the same

Is it worth Owning a TDI anymore?

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