Manual transmission being phased out, not efficient & slower

ruking

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milehighassassin said:
Manuals will not always be more efficient. That is changing now, the fact that a computer is making the decision when to shift is proving that. It can shift at the perfect time for economy, something a human is not always capable of. Having the ability to have several different modes programmed in as well.

Everyone on here is sounding very old school. You sound like the old carb guys trying to justify how carbs are better than fuel injection. LOL
I am not sure what you are trying to imply by the "old school" comment.

For as long (as VW has been putting out manual transmissions and automatic transmissions slush boxes) as I have been personally acquainted with VW's (1970 Beetle, bought used in 1971... 39 years ago) they have NEVER put out a very robust manual transmission, let alone automatic T. Now FF to the 2003 TDI Jetta's manual transmission, hardly anyone (on this web site anyway) is really impressed with that one. However I have heard and am in the process of proving and depending on this dual mass manual transmission, lasting 400 k to 500k miles. Indeed of the Mk IV, rumor has it that MY is one of the best of that generation. You don't have to drift far away to the 01 M auto transmission and most anyone is even FAR less inpressed with that effort !?.

So for the DSG which Borg Warmer and VW (other also) have been "perfecting" IT for @ least a decade or longer; the cycle... seems to repeat itself... Now keep in mind it is really a dual pack CLUTCH "automatic", aka not an automatic slush box. So what do we need 79/80 years to get a robust (let along bullet proof and impressive) DSG? Why by then (39 years hence) I will be 98 years old.
 
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milehighassassin

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For some reason I really doubt Ferrari is trying to get better fuel economy out of this automatic. Just a hunch.

Ferrari designed this transmission to be fast and to put up faster times, that it does.

With proper maintenance there is no reason an auto will last just as long as a motor. Remember a manual has a clutch to go out as well, does that not count?

If your auto didn't last 100k you did something wrong.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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milehighassassin said:
Manuals will not always be more efficient. That is changing now, the fact that a computer is making the decision when to shift is proving that.
A bit of a clarification: A manual transmission will consume less power (be more efficient) than an automatic. The most efficient power transfer mechanism, would be a direct shaft from the engine to the wheels. An automatic transmissions fluid pump requires power to run, and that is power that doesn't reach the wheels.

However you are correct that by taking into account engine parameters, an automatic transmissions can yield more fuel efficiency than a manual transmission by manipulating the engine parameters better such as optimizing shift points, shifting lower in the RPM range etc.
 

manual_tranny

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milehighassassin said:
For some reason I really doubt Ferrari is trying to get better fuel economy out of this automatic. Just a hunch.
That is correct... they weren't trying to, it just happened because of different gear ratios. The manual transmission is probably not significantly slower in the right hands, and if I were Ferrari I would not have considered a 7-speed H-shifter either. Shift times are really secondary to driver skill IMHO. Take into account the future owners of these Ferraris... I'm sure we can agree that the money it takes to buy these things will not make better drivers. My guess? The people with the money for Ferraris who choose manual transmissions will be the serious driving enthusiasts.
milehighassassin said:
With proper maintenance there is no reason an auto will last just as long as a motor. Remember a manual has a clutch to go out as well, does that not count?
If your auto didn't last 100k you did something wrong.
I am driving a car with over 400K miles on it and the original clutch. Anybody around here have an automatic that has never been serviced in 400K miles?
 
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ruking

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manual_tranny said:
that is correct... they weren't trying to, it just happened because of different gear ratios.

I am driving a car with over 400K miles on it and the original clutch. Anybody around here have an automatic that has never been serviced in 400K miles?
Yeah I am not sure why folks seem to skirt the issue. New clutch job, $600-900 and good for another (in your case, probably another 500k miles) . Automatic transmission repair, minimum of ...$2,000. It will NEVER shift the same !! Yes I would love to hear of anyone getting 300,400,500 k and UP on a A/T !!!
 

Scott_DeWitt

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ruking said:
Yeah I am not sure why folks seem to skirt the issue. New clutch job, $600-900 and good for another (in your case, probably another 500k miles) . Automatic transmission repair, minimum of ...$2,000. It will NEVER shift the same !! Yes I would love to hear of anyone getting 300,400,500 k and UP on a A/T !!!
My dad had a pickup truck that got 200K on the TH400, and $300 bucks worth of parts it kept chugging on until the 454 exploded.
 

DPM

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Don't forget the "automated manual" 'boxes that some of the other euro brands are offering- a pretty standard 5- or 6-speed box, but with two actuators; one for gear selection and one for clutch engagement.
 

TurbinePower

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Scott_DeWitt said:
My dad had a pickup truck that got 200K on the TH400, and $300 bucks worth of parts it kept chugging on until the 454 exploded.
While that one had durability, it probably lacked all the more sterling qualities of a "modern automatic," such as increased gear number relative to manual transmissions, tight coordination with the engine ECU, light weight, high efficiency fluid and gearing, and all the billions of other necessities for the autobox to get better fuel economy than the stick shift version of the same...

That's trading a lot to get durability.
 

milehighassassin

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I am not arguing that the VW automatic O1M or whatever it is, is a better transmission. But there are FAR better transmissions out there.

About the comment with in the right hands a manual will be as fast as the auto, no possible way. The autos are shifting in milliseconds. It is not possible for a human to clutch and shift in that speed, even if you go clutchless you won't pull that speed off.

I like the manual but depending on my next car, I seriously doubt it will be a manual. There are times I completely hate having a manual. When I get stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and even worse when that bumper to bumper traffic is on a slick mountain pass the manual sucks and tires you out.

Try driving 80 miles in bumper to bumper in icy roads on a big grade.
 

manual_tranny

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milehighassassin said:
About the comment with in the right hands a manual will be as fast as the auto, no possible way. The autos are shifting in milliseconds. It is not possible for a human to clutch and shift in that speed, even if you go clutchless you won't pull that speed off.
It sounds like you are putting a lot of eggs in one basket with this claim. With all respect, there is so much more to driving fast than shifting speed.
 

ruking

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milehighassassin said:
I am not arguing that the VW automatic O1M or whatever it is, is a better transmission. But there are FAR better transmissions out there.

About the comment with in the right hands a manual will be as fast as the auto, no possible way. The autos are shifting in milliseconds. It is not possible for a human to clutch and shift in that speed, even if you go clutchless you won't pull that speed off.

I like the manual but depending on my next car, I seriously doubt it will be a manual. There are times I completely hate having a manual. When I get stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and even worse when that bumper to bumper traffic is on a slick mountain pass the manual sucks and tires you out.

Try driving 80 miles in bumper to bumper in icy roads on a big grade.
Well too bad it is not like Ethan Allen furniture where you can pick and chose. So for example, I would love the MB CDI 6/7 speed automatic transmission (mated to a VW TDI) . It is about as robust, reliable, durable and bullet proof as they come.
 

Ski in NC

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There's the cost issue too. Unless someone develops some new concept of autobox, I can't imagine autos ever being less costly to produce than manuals. Or less costly over the lifecycle for the owner. So maybe there's hope???
 

milehighassassin

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manual_tranny said:
It sounds like you are putting a lot of eggs in one basket with this claim. With all respect, there is so much more to driving fast than shifting speed.
Yes, very true.

And that proves my point. If you don't have to worry about shifting it just makes focussing on everything else much easier. Sure it is 2nd nature but when you are talking racing, hundredths if not thousandths of seconds matter.

Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc, etc have all shown that their autos put down faster 0-60, faster midrange speeds, and put down faster laps than a manual with a race proven driver.
 

ruking

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Ski in NC said:
There's the cost issue too. Unless someone develops some new concept of autobox, I can't imagine autos ever being less costly to produce than manuals. Or less costly over the lifecycle for the owner. So maybe there's hope???
For (my) last 4 VW's (70,78,03, 09) perhaps one of the competitive issues that I have always like was the choice of manual/auto. 3/4 times it has been the manual. I have to confess that one of the reasons why I halfway "like" the DSG is because it is a dual " CLUTCH" pack shifted by computer, aka "automatic". This was driven by 3/4 drivers wanting "automatic". If it was just me, it would be the 6 speed manual.
 
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ruking

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MrMopar said:
Subaru automatic transmissions will do this with only fluid changes.
I was really confining my statements to VW's. In addition, for some reason Subaru's have never appealed to me.
 

TurbinePower

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milehighassassin said:
Yes, very true.

And that proves my point. If you don't have to worry about shifting it just makes focussing on everything else much easier.
Not so true for the average driver. :rolleyes:

Not having to think about shifting is just free license to glue a cell phone to your ear.
 

vwmikel

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Bob_Fout said:
Frappa-mocha-book-lipstick-cellphone-food
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I like driving for the sake of driving. Most modern cars take so many things out of the equation. They try to put your living room in a car. It's like the ultimate goal is that you'll never have to do anything and you'll just magically appear at your destination. That's why I prefer feeling like I'm in control of the car which is something I cannot say with the slushbox. Additionally, the programming of the new DSG's is terrible. It likes to idle along which makes the car rattle and shake. It bogs so bad that it can't keep up to speed so you have to step on it and then it finally downshifts. You then zoom ahead a bit and as soon as you settle into your speed it shifts and bogs again. It's an irritating joke of a transmission. I'm not sure if I believe that the mileage is all that much better. I also think I could probably shift a manual about as fast as the DSG changes gears....so, why would I want it again?

I really hope that the manual trans doesn't become extinct, but I have a feeling that it will in due time.
 

EJS

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manual_tranny said:
The people with the money for Ferraris who choose manual transmissions will be the serious driving enthusiasts.
Or maybe they will take the paddles...........because that's what the real race cars have. I'd be willing to bet a % of owners are those with $$$$ and the delusion of being a racer.

Bob_Fout said:
<Clarkson> Stupid flappy paddle gearbox
You mean the English broadcaster and journalist? Same dill-weed who ragged on (& still does to a certain extent) diesels? That *sshat?

milehighassassin said:
Yes, very true.
Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, etc, etc have all shown that their autos put down faster 0-60, faster midrange speeds, and put down faster laps than a manual with a race proven driver.
Which would be exactly what the Walter Mitty types would be after.

vwmikel said:
I also think I could probably shift a manual about as fast as the DSG changes gears....so, why would I want it again?
Dee plane, dee plane.........boss the dee plane. Welcome to fan-ta-see island.
 

supton

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milehighassassin said:
<snip>
I like the manual but depending on my next car, I seriously doubt it will be a manual. There are times I completely hate having a manual. When I get stuck in bumper to bumper traffic and even worse when that bumper to bumper traffic is on a slick mountain pass the manual sucks and tires you out.

Try driving 80 miles in bumper to bumper in icy roads on a big grade.
I recently rented an automatic Accent while the Jetta was in the shop. I actually found the torque convertor somewhat annoying in traffic. Sure, my left was not getting tired. But my right foot was! I'm not used to having to push down on the brake all the time to keep it from going forward.

I suppose a DSG with a clutch would be better. But then, I did find I had to alter my driving habits, as the darn Accent was always downshifting on the highway, for every throttle adjustment. Stupid thing would never stay in the gear I wanted; no need to unlock the convertor (or worse, downshift) at 70mph, unless if I gave it full throttle.

Lastly, if the DSG has clutches, why on earth does it need fluid changes every 40k? At 400 bucks a pop? I don't care if it's down to $100 a pop if I do it myself, a clutch for my rural driving fits me better.
 

supton

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MrMopar said:
Subaru automatic transmissions will do this with only fluid changes.
I thought Subie's rotted away before then? Maybe they last longer outside of salt-ridden New England.
 

MrMopar

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vwmikel said:
Additionally, the programming of the new DSG's is terrible. It likes to idle along which makes the car rattle and shake. It bogs so bad that it can't keep up to speed so you have to step on it and then it finally downshifts. You then zoom ahead a bit and as soon as you settle into your speed it shifts and bogs again. It's an irritating joke of a transmission.
Slip it over into the manual shift gates, and choose which gear yourself.
 

MrMopar

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supton said:
I recently rented an automatic Accent while the Jetta was in the shop. I actually found the torque convertor somewhat annoying in traffic. Sure, my left was not getting tired. But my right foot was! I'm not used to having to push down on the brake all the time to keep it from going forward.
When I used to drive an auto transmission in heavy traffic (particularly traffic jams) I just toggled the shifter between Drive and Neutral. You can hit drive to creep forward, and then sit in Neutral so you don't have to hold the brake pedal all the time.
 

TurbinePower

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MrMopar said:
Slip it over into the manual shift gates, and choose which gear yourself.
There's always (in my experience) a really annoying lag between the time you select the gear and the time it actually engages, that's equal or greater than the time it takes me to actually shift gears.

Now, I've only driven one DSG, a test drive TDI, but I've driven several Tips and various other manufacturer's you-shift-it autotragics. The lag is horrible if you're used to a tight clutch and a shortened throw shifter.

As for a stick being bad in traffic... wimps. :p I may not do bumper to bumper traffic every day, but the times I do end up in it my car's trans poses less of a problem than the lack of air conditioning does. I don't have to think about it, just bump-coast-slow, bump-coast-slow...

If you're getting stuck in traffic every single day... whose fault is that? Not the transmission's...:rolleyes:
 

EJS

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TurbinePower said:
If you're getting stuck in traffic every single day... whose fault is that? Not the transmission's...
So who's blaming the transmission for traffic? :D It certainly ain't the transmission's fault but when 20 miles = 1hr average, and can go as high as 3 - 4hrs on an "incident" day shifting can be painful.

TurbinePower said:
As for a stick being bad in traffic... wimps. :p I may not do bumper to bumper traffic every day, but the times I do end up in it my car's trans poses less of a problem than the lack of air conditioning does. I don't have to think about it, just bump-coast-slow, bump-coast-slow...
Uh huh, sure. In my area EVERY day is like that. Drive to a nearby mall on Saturday and you're in bumper to bumper traffic on 95. I did manuals, for 10 -15 years...........right up until a commute to Balt (1hr) took 6.5hrs.

TurbinePower said:
There's always (in my experience) a really annoying lag between the time you select the gear and the time it actually engages, that's equal or greater than the time it takes me to actually shift gears
I'll be the first to admit the DSG exhibits some odd behavior. I'd wager anyone used to an old school auto has snapped their neck leaving a light (not allowing the split second for engage). One thing it does not have is a lag when used in manual mode - you hit, it shifts. Don't forget it's always also in a second gear = instant. Yes it does like to lug the engine, but that's for fuel economy (I guess)........but that's what they have an S (or manual). It is odd but it's also light years ahead of the traditional auto.
 
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Bob_Fout

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EJS said:
Or maybe they will take the paddles...........because that's what the real race cars have. I'd be willing to bet a % of owners are those with $$$$ and the delusion of being a racer.


You mean the English broadcaster and journalist? Same dill-weed who ragged on (& still does to a certain extent) diesels? That *sshat?


Which would be exactly what the Walter Mitty types would be after.


Dee plane, dee plane.........boss the dee plane. Welcome to fan-ta-see island.
Yes, Jeremy Clarkson. Top Gear is first and foremost an entertainment show (which I love BTW, British humor, especially those 3 guys, is great). He is entitled to his opinions, and has gotten better about diesels the past few years. What he says about diesels is mostly correct when you cut through the humor.
 

manual_tranny

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EJS said:
Or maybe they will take the paddles...........because that's what the real race cars have. I'd be willing to bet a % of owners are those with $$$$ and the delusion of being a racer.
I agree. You said it right with "delusion of being a racer". This is exactly what I meant. The people who ARE "real" racers who have the coin to drive a Ferrari around will choose the clutch and H-box. The people who are "delusional" racers will pick the paddles. Not all real race cars have paddle shifters. "Real race cars" aren't all the same car. My personal preference in a "real" race car is a Formula Ford, F-Two, or F-Three car with a ECU-less sequential shifter, forward and back throw, with a clutch. The manual clutch allows the driver to choose how quickly power or engine braking are transferred to the ground. Most novice drivers have little problem learning to shift a sequential transmission without a clutch once moving. My preference in a rally would be hands-down the H-box. Instant shifts in a rally are so much less important than predictability of shifts. There is a lot of merit to using an H-box because your muscle memory has a chance to distinguish different shift directions with different ranges of speed. On loose surfaces, it can be nice to engine brake in a gear chosen for the turn... this way the driver develops good habits like being in the correct gear well before getting on the power. I know this is debatable. My muscle memory knows which direction to throw and H-gate, but I'm not 100% at skipping gears with a sequential.
 
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