B100 price increase

Ron Lee

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Mar 26, 2001
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Westminster,Maryland
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Jetta, 2005.5, Black w/ Pure Beige
B100 at the Taylorsville, MD Shell has cost $2.599 since they started carrying it in August. The first of February, the cost jumped forty cents to $2.999. Now I thought American grown soy based B100 was pretty insular from the crude oil market. I mean it's not that popular, don't think the heating oil market should affect it either. A forty cent hike is pretty lofty as well. Has anyone else experienced such a radical mark up in price? Have I missed something? RC, Lito, anyone else like to weigh in on this? THX.
 

tongsli

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Darn Ron.

When the heck did this happen???? We need to call Seth at Tri-gas.

RC, have you spoken to him?

The only thing I can think of is increased cost for TRADITIONAL diesel fuel to get it to Easton and then to Taylorsville.

This sucks!!!

I'm for helping the cause, but at $3.00 a gallon? Yikes.

Lito
 

Ron Lee

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Jetta, 2005.5, Black w/ Pure Beige
The guy at Taylorsville Shell said the price went up the first of February. He said the cost to Tevis went up so it was passed on to them. Forty cents seems like an awful steep increase. I think someone is looking to cash in on some quick $$$$$ just because dino diesel is going up. As I said, B100 should be isolated from the crude oil price fluctuations. But then again, what do you expect from someone who decided to have an open house from 10:00AM -2:00PM on a Friday. I think promoting B100 is way down on their priority list.
 

nh mike

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See the ongoing thread "Are B100 prices going up?". I agree with you Ron - I think it's just a case of the companies who distribute the biodiesel (not the retailers - the distributors) thinking that as petro diesel prices go up, they can raise biodiesel prices too (i.e. "if they were willing to buy biodiesel for an extra $1/gallon before, they'll still be willing to, so let's jack the price up"). If the distributors use petro diesel in their delivery trucks, the price should go up some - but nowhere near what we've seen.

Another issue is soy oil prices, which have gone up a little bit - but again not enough to justify the large price increase (and it also doesn't make sense why soy oil prices should go up, since there's still a large surplus of soy oil, about 20 times the amount that is turned into biodiesel). When the market is flooded, prices shouldn't go up. Unfortunately, USDA subsidies make that happen (keep prices up).
 

Ron Lee

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Well, at $2.999/Gal, I'm going to defer to the economic theory of supply and demand. I will no longer demand this product at this price. Maybe then the supply will increase to the point were the price will come down to something considered reasonable. I only buy 3 to 5 gallons at a time anyway in order to blend. A five or ten cent hike would have been considered reasonable, but forty cents?? I see no logical way to justify that much of an increase other than pure greed. I've seen post where others are paying $1.85 to $2.00/gal for B100. Does soy prices vary that much across the country?? I'm willing to bet that the wholesale price is much more consistant and that the retail price is where the greatest fluctuations occur. I still use Amoco PB and it is now $1.85/Gal up from $1.78 last week. The Jetta has never run better than on the PB and I'll go back to adding 8 oz. of Power Service DFA. Maybe this will shake out sometime soon. Who knows.
 

alex wetmore

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seattle, wa
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2006 Jetta TDI
At $1.85 to $2.00/gallon the prices probably don't include taxes. Taxes (at least in WA State) are about $0.50 per gallon.

Prices have gone up $0.27/gallon here in Seattle in the last few months and from talking to my distributor his costs have gone up even more than that...he is just trying to keep the price as low as possible.

Petrodiesel prices have climbed more than $0.27/gallon in the past few weeks so in comparison the biodiesel hikes don't seem so bad. I don't drive enough to where the cost really bothers me though.

alex
 

strretch

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Nov 29, 2001
Location
Bloomington, IN, USA
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2001 Golf TDI
Ugh! This does suck!

I do believe that Tevis doesn't seem very interested in promoting this product. I think, though, that the lack of competition is probably the best reason for the price hike. No competition means they have an open road for gouging. Anyone know if the USDA or DoE puts regulations or caps on the price of biodiesel? Does anyone (Ron, Lito, other Marylanders) know if there is any other distributor out there in this area? Who are they?

Anyone want to go back to exploring a bioD coop in the Bawlmer area...? I'm in in a heartbeat if it's a better deal than this.

-Brian
 

RC

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Originally posted by tongsli:
...When the heck did this happen???? We need to call Seth at Tri-gas.

RC, have you spoken to him?

Lito
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have been speaking with Seth and his costs have risen whatever TriGas has gone up... they are just passing it on to the buyer. He also said that he expects the cost to drop soon. I`m about to order another 500 gallons but Seth suggested I try to hold out and the price might be more in line with what I`m used to soon.

I hope to talk with Keith at WE tomorrow and if so I`ll get the scoop from him on this increase.

Don`t loose any hair on this guys, our first tank of B100 three years ago cost us $3.50/gallon, and we were more than happy to pay that for what it does for us. When the bombs start dropping you`ll feel good about your fuel no matter what is cost you, nobody had to die for it.


Were not going back to the Devil`s Tea no matter how much our B100 costs, we`re through with the evils of the petroleum system.
 

nh mike

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Originally posted by strretch:
Anyone know if the USDA or DoE puts regulations or caps on the price of biodiesel?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nope. Like any product, those who sell it can charge whatever they want. If they charge too much, people won't buy it. The biodiesel distributors (i.e. World Energy, etc.) apparently feel that since people have been willing to pay about $1/gallon more for biodiesel than petro diesel, that as petro diesel prices, they can raise biodiesel prices accordingly so it stays about $1/gallon more.

Actually, their price increases over the past year have outpaced the petro diesel prices. About a year ago, petro diesel was averaging around $1.40, and has gone up to around $1.80-1.90. So, up 40 to 50 cents. Biodiesel has gone from $1.88 to I think $2.58, up 70 cents. (it may be up to $2.68, I'm not sure)

Unfortunately, this is sort of screwing distributors like Solar Market, since they sell pre-purchased allotments (i.e. I bought 500 gallons for $2.16 a couple months ago (and a few months before that they were selling it for $1.98 - so there are people who bought 500 gallons at that rate). Solar Market has a very customer-friendly system by which you can buy larger amounts to get a lower price, but just pick it over time in quantities you can handle (so I get 40 gallons every month or so). The problem now is that there are many of us who still have a few hundred gallons on our credit that we purchased at considerably less than Solar Market's cost. So, they're buying it at a fair amount more than we paid for it - not a good deal for retailers).

I think the biodiesel industry is just going to have to realize that they need to use other feedstocks than soy. The problem is that the USDA farm programs essentially work out to a method of price control - it's ridiculous that when there is as much surplus soy oil as there is, that the price can actually remain so high (and even go up).

Hopefully more biodiesel plants that use WVO as a feedstock will be built. Until all WVO is being used up, that should be the way to go.
 

tongsli

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RC,

I think you need to communicate to Seth just how much this will affect the Bio-D business for the Taylorsville location. And, Seth in turn needs to communicate this to World Energy.

You of all people know JoAnn and I do the most we can to conserve, recycle and to use less and less of our natural resources.

1.We will never own an SUV or vehicle that gets less than 25-30 mpg
2.We use our washing machine water(summer/spring/fall) to water plants outside.
3.We let our grass go brown instead of watering it.
4.We use soaker hoses in the garden and only for vegetables.
5.We recycle plastic, paper, etc, etc.
6.I take the Marc train to work and Metro in DC.
7.We only use air conditioning in the hottest parts of the summer. We'll go to a movie or somewhere that's air conditioned for relief.
8.We will be replacing our 30 year old furnace with a newer, more efficient unit this summer. www.system2000.com if you're interested.
9.I bought a used electric lawn mower last fall off ebay.
10.We keep our house thermostadt at 65 at night and 64 during the day(winter time)and 68 in the evening.
11.I was buying Biodiesel at $2.59 per gallon. And drove to Easton(once)filled up 6-5gallon containers.

I already feel like we're doing as much as we can. JoAnn even wanted to get rid of one of our cars


I'll be curbing my use as well


Lito

[ February 23, 2003, 21:32: Message edited by: tongsli ]
 

godlike242

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Aug 10, 2000
Location
Bellevue, Wa
lito: they don't always have the best light for everything, but for 97% of the time, those compact flourescent bulbs do a wonderful job of lighting a room..
i am thrilled when the 60 watt equivs only use 13 watts of power, and the 100 watt version uses 23 watts.. it is really nice to be able to light a room with 6 bulbs which use only 18 watts more than a single incandescant bulb. Feit seems to put out the best version with the best quality of light (ie, soft white)

they have really come down in price in the last few months, which is nice too

and speaking of lawnmowers, i would kill to have a biodiesel powered lawnmower..

[ February 23, 2003, 22:09: Message edited by: godlike242 ]
 

Octavian

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and speaking of lawnmowers, i would kill to have a biodiesel powered lawnmower..

What torque are we talking about, enough to snap smaller trees in half?
 

dqa

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Alabama
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Seems that if you can make a vehicle run on wood chips, you should be able to do the same with grass clippings. The mower would essentially be self-powered, and eliminate the annoyance of mulching or otherwise disposing of clippings.
 

nh mike

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Originally posted by godlike242:
lito: they don't always have the best light for everything, but for 97% of the time, those compact flourescent bulbs do a wonderful job of lighting a room..
i am thrilled when the 60 watt equivs only use 13 watts of power, and the 100 watt version uses 23 watts.. it is really nice to be able to light a room with 6 bulbs which use only 18 watts more than a single incandescant bulb. Feit seems to put out the best version with the best quality of light (ie, soft white)
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Just be wary of the 3 way compact fluorescents. I've had bad luck with those (failing. The companies replaced them when they failed, but it's still inconvenient). The normal (non-3-way) ones are much more reliable.

And 6 bulbs to light up a room? Yikes, how big is the room? I don't think we even have any rooms that have more than 3 lights in them.... (and normally no more than one is on at once).
 

tongsli

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Godlike242,

Sorry. Yes, we already use compact flourescent bulbs on non-dimming lights in the house.

L
 

Dante

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Pacific Northwest
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Silver 2000 Golf GLS TDI
Sorry for contributing to the thread drift toward compact fluorescents, but I'm converting the bulbs in most of our fixtures to 13W 800 lumen Sylvania or Phillips "Mini Twist" bulbs as I find them on Sale (Bartell Drugs in Seattle has a killer deal on them today--3 for $8 and change). They fit where normal 60-watt bulbs fit. In three-bulb fixtures, they produce plenty of light while drawing 141 watts less than three 60-watt bulbs
 

CoolWhiteDude

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I would like to find a local source for bio-diesel. One that wouldn't require extensive transportation costs. The Kane county farm bureau has a program where they will reimburse you 1 cent for each percent of bio-diesel you blend into your fuel. As for CF lights, I have them all over the place. The newer ones seem to work much better than the ones I got just 3 years ago. I use them in the front lights on my house on a timer. They run for up to 6 hours @ 52 watts(4-13 watt bulbs)=312 watts. Not bad when compared to the incandesent bulbs that were it there-1440 watts plus the light is actually more pleasing
 

alex wetmore

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seattle, wa
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2006 Jetta TDI
Originally posted by nh mike:
And 6 bulbs to light up a room? Yikes, how big is the room? I don't think we even have any rooms that have more than 3 lights in them.... (and normally no more than one is on at once).
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">My kitchen has 9 13W CF bulbs in it. It is not a huge kitchen, but larger than average. It measures about 12' by 15'. 6 are normally turned on at once.

My aquarium is the largest user of light bulbs in my house though. It has 6 30W T8 flourescent bulbs and 1 36W compact flourescent.

My basement also has 7 shop fixtures each of which uses 2 40W T12 flourescent bulbs. My small bedroom (really only big enough for a queen bed and nightstands) has 4 dimming incadescent lights and 2 3-way bulbs next to each side of the bed. I really can't think of any room in my house with only 3 bulbs. My house is not large by any stretch of the imagination (1700sqft including the basement, about 1100sqft of living space, 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom).

alex
 

GeWilli

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Electric lawn mower? I've got a nice one $100 at Lowes, and powered by mine or my wife's feet. Push it and it cuts. No noise - light - and cuts great.

$3 a gallon is pretty steep. But Our prices droped between when I last got it and the most recent expedition. 2.85 down to 2.565/gallon with amoco premium rising to 1.799 at the last fueling the cost per mile has gone up a bit but the added cost with the bioD to blend has made it less of a differential. I'm runnin B30 right now (up a bit due to the reduction in price). . . but until they are the same price I can't afford to run B100 driving 72 miles each way. not at least until this car is paid off and I can convince my wife that having a storage tank in the garage isn't such a bad thing


I'll do my part . . . BTW Check this out Lito . . .

Hot water and Hot Air? All from BioDiesel (I don't think you can run B100 but B50 should be fine) . . . .

http://www.aeroenvironmental.com/aquaair.html

very cool stuff - Switch your power generation for hot water and heat to the sun rather than the generating stations!

although the NOx is a slightly higher . . . if you have Natrual Gas your NOx would be lower, but your silicate emissions would be higher . . .

one cool/hot alternative - (unless you go with radient heat! - definately more efficient than forced air). Think about heat transfer - you want a whole floor radiating heat or a small register blowing 100+ degree air around hoping to warm it up?
 

Lightman

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Sunny Florida
lito, fyi - Westinghouse has dimmable compact flourescent mini-twists out now
They dim very smoothly, like an incandescent. They also have mini twist CFL yellow bug/outdoor lamps(bulbs), and 3way lamps. Happens to be one of the lines I rep...
Grab some of those and water your brown grass, lol!
 

nh mike

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Originally posted by alex wetmore:
My kitchen has 9 13W CF bulbs in it. It is not a huge kitchen, but larger than average. It measures about 12' by 15'. 6 are normally turned on at once.

My aquarium is the largest user of light bulbs in my house though. It has 6 30W T8 flourescent bulbs and 1 36W compact flourescent.

My basement also has 7 shop fixtures each of which uses 2 40W T12 flourescent bulbs. My small bedroom (really only big enough for a queen bed and nightstands) has 4 dimming incadescent lights and 2 3-way bulbs next to each side of the bed. I really can't think of any room in my house with only 3 bulbs. My house is not large by any stretch of the imagination (1700sqft including the basement, about 1100sqft of living space, 1 bedroom, 1 bathroom).
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why so many lights? Right now, there are two lights on in our house, which is typical for while we're at home. I think I'd find your amount of lighting blinding.
 

nh mike

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Originally posted by GeWilli:
Electric lawn mower? I've got a nice one $100 at Lowes, and powered by mine or my wife's feet. Push it and it cuts. No noise - light - and cuts great.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depending on how much land we end up being able to afford for our new home, I'm hoping to go with sheep for lawn care.


Hot water and Hot Air? All from BioDiesel (I don't think you can run B100 but B50 should be fine) . . . .

http://www.aeroenvironmental.com/aquaair.html
I'd rather go with a solar hot water heater, with biodiesel backup.

one cool/hot alternative - (unless you go with radient heat! - definately more efficient than forced air). Think about heat transfer - you want a whole floor radiating heat or a small register blowing 100+ degree air around hoping to warm it up?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I've thought a lot about radiant heat for our new home. A solar hot water heater that circulates the heated water through the floors for heat would be cool, but it would take a large amount of solar water heater panels to heat enough water for that (Bill Lord does this, and his system was pretty expensive). I'm thinking now more about geothermal.
 

MITBeta

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Boston's Metro South-West
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2.We use our washing machine water(summer/spring/fall) to water plants outside.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">How does this work? Do you have a 55 gallon drum next to the washer that the drain hose goes into? Does the soapy water matter to the plants?

In terms of compact flourescents, I haven't had a problem with the 3-way bulbs, but then I also notice that I generally turn them to full brightness all time.

One of the very small drawbacks is that it takes them a few minutes to get up to full brightness, so you're more likely to turn them all the way up.

Like Mike, there are 2 flouros on in our house right now, and that's uncommon because the wife is reading... I suppose I could shut the other one off...
 

tongsli

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You've gotta love this place


Geoff,

If you look at www.system2000.com you will notice that the Gas fired furnace also has a heat exchanger that can supply hot water as part of the furnace.

Problem is we recently bought a new gas-fired Hot water heater.

The company said we could just use it as a storage tank, we're considering it.

Before I won the electric mower, JoAnn wanted to get the same push mower!!!

Lightman, thanks for the tip. Will look into it too.

Phil,

The washer is in the basement and we run a long hose out the window to the nearby planting bed. Since all soaps are free of phosphates it's not a problem. You do need to consider temperature. Don't use the HOT setting(we rarely do) the temperature is bad, not the soap.

Also, we bought a rain barrel a few years ago. Great, great invention. We use that to water the garden as well.

I was too embarassed to tell you this too, but in the summer, she also stops up the tub and siphons the water out the back bedroom window and down to the rain barrel


And, of course the saying I learned at a B&B in the Adirondack Mountains: "if it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown, flush it down".

I'm not as strict about this


Ok, MOGOLF and Strretch, now I'm really going to bed.

Lito
 

GeWilli

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lost to new england
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Mike, the nice thing about usign a BioDiesel even if you can't use B100 in the fueloil HWheaters is the solar power from teh beans - so rather than the slow heat transfer in expensive tiles you have the HW being generated from mostly bean juice . . .

My brother has been working with radiant floor heating and doing lots of new installs and works with the latest tech (he just recently started working in this area with a small company in Seattle) so I get to hear all about the 'modern' and more efficient heating systems. Hot water heaters . . . talk about super efficient! Heck if you have the new heater Lito just get a big heat exchanger and a pump (like on that aero page). The air passing through the hot water won't cool it down so significantly that it would add much load to the existing hot water heater . . . esp since you live in Balmy MD!

And about the laundry waste water . . . grey water as its called and yeah soap is generally not a problem for plants - it is a problem for bugs. beneficial bugs as well as bad bugs . . . gotta watch that balance. My problem is washing the close after spending a day doing a timing belt . . . gotta use dishwasher soap to get the clothes clean and all that emulsified car diesel car grease isn't so good for plants
 

boyelectric

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Joined
Apr 28, 2000
Location
Utopia Planitia
Originally posted by dqa:
Seems that if you can make a vehicle run on wood chips, you should be able to do the same with grass clippings. The mower would essentially be self-powered, and eliminate the annoyance of mulching or otherwise disposing of clippings.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Those were invented a long time ago! They are called goats and sheep.
 

MITBeta

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Boston's Metro South-West
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2001 Jetta TDI, 2004 Sprinter CDI Passenger (Mid/High), former: 1996 Passat TDI Variant
Before I won the electric mower, JoAnn wanted to get the same push mower!!!
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I have a push mower. It cuts grass great, but it really does a poor job on crab grass... I need to figure out how to get rid of this stuff chemically... or just run the gas mower a couple of times a summer...
 

tongsli

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Phil,

for the crabgrass, visit www.gardensalive.com JoAnn uses this stuff called WithOutWeeds (WOW)

It's all natural. It must be applied before things go to seed. It works great. The only problem is our dogs like the stuff too.


So, when we apply it we keep them off for a few days.

Geoff,
you must be bathing in oil and diesel fuel
The soap will not kill ladybugs. Check out the site I mentioned to Phil. You'll find some soap-based herbicides on their home page.

Lito

WOW

[ February 25, 2003, 19:45: Message edited by: tongsli ]
 

natescape

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Between Providence and Cape Cod
TDI
None at the moment. *sniff*
Lito, I'm checking out the WOW, as I want to break the Scotts fertilizer cycle and just build a nice, deep, natural topsoil and lawn. But this stuff is EXPENSIVE! My lawn is 10k-15k feet, which would put the cost into the hundreds of dollars.

Is it that good? Are there better alternatives?
 
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