NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

chetstash

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2009 Touareg TDI; Former owner of 2010 JSW TDI
I can't believe this thread its still going. I dumped my JSW around 15 months ago and got into a Touareg TDI. Hard headed Germans don't inspire a lot of confidence, do they?
 

Smokin_Joe

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400 pages Gawd Help us

Question
I don't see a viable solution listed at one end or the other of the post.
Anyone up to speed on where this stands.
We have a 2011 tdi with rust in the sending unit and it has caused the filter to plug we have been denied coverage for warranty and I was wondering if someone is up to speed if this post contains an answer.
One that would be a solution
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4488117#post4488117
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=4488131#post4488131
 

Smokin_Joe

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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Dealer and Customer care Deny coverage

A problem yes; but check with your dealer. Its pretty well know by now that VW has been picking up the tab to fix your car. Check it out.

Good Luck
I just checked with my dealer in BC.
They blamed fuel contamination, outside source, deny coverage.
Customer Care was glad to call and tell me I was denied.
I asked what could I do.
They asked if I was looking for legal counsel and I said there are other options.
Media.
We have nothing more to say
Bye
Great waiting for the District Rep to give me a call.
At this point it is being denied.
 

ticketed2much

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I just checked with my dealer in BC.
They blamed fuel contamination, outside source, deny coverage.
Customer Care was glad to call and tell me I was denied.
I asked what could I do.
They asked if I was looking for legal counsel and I said there are other options.
Media.
We have nothing more to say
Bye
Great waiting for the District Rep to give me a call.
At this point it is being denied.
A couple other Canadians have had problems getting this covered also. Apparently VW of Canada and VW of America have different policies. If you did have fuel contamination, even VWOA may not have covered it.
 

Smokin_Joe

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A couple other Canadians have had problems getting this covered also. Apparently VW of Canada and VW of America have different policies. If you did have fuel contamination, even VWOA may not have covered it.
That is ok
The defect department, of Transport Canada, has its eye on the NHTSA and it has been very interested in the pictures I sent them.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues
Can't do a direct link
Search EA11003 In the ID Number section
Under Investigations
 

kjclow

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That is ok
The defect department, of Transport Canada, has its eye on the NHTSA and it has been very interested in the pictures I sent them.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/owners/SearchSafetyIssues
Can't do a direct link
Search EA11003 In the ID Number section
Under Investigations
It's good to know that Transport Canada is looking over NHTSA's sholder. Maybe that will get them to finally wrap up the investigation. In our favor, of course.
 

PlaneCrazy

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Gone...
A couple other Canadians have had problems getting this covered also. Apparently VW of Canada and VW of America have different policies. If you did have fuel contamination, even VWOA may not have covered it.
VW Canada will not cover the HPFP outside the bumper-to-bumper warranty. It isn't even considered part of the powertrain. I was denied coverage at around 90k km. With much arguing I was able to get VW to cover 2/3 of the cost of a remanufactured pump, but I opted for a new pump so the coverage was actually 50%. They did not change anything else in the fuel system as they claimed no other damage, the pump just wasn't delivering, according to them, rated pressure, and there were some metal shavings, but the pump had not actually failed.

I'm pretty sure though that the pump was not at fault for my power loss at WOT, but rather moisture in the IC as the problem continued after the new pump was installed.
 

_PK_

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Vancouver
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2010 Jeta
Hi Smokin_Joe -

May I ask who your dealer is? I also am from Surrey (2010 TDI - 100,000 km, no problems)
 

kjclow

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Location
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2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I just checked with my dealer in BC.
They blamed fuel contamination, outside source, deny coverage.
Customer Care was glad to call and tell me I was denied.
I asked what could I do.
They asked if I was looking for legal counsel and I said there are other options.
Media.
We have nothing more to say
Bye
Great waiting for the District Rep to give me a call.
At this point it is being denied.
What testing did they do to prove contaminated fuel? If it was detailed enough, then you might be able to go after fuel station. If they do not have a detailed report, then go back and get someone to explain to you why they believe is was contaminated fuel. none of this may get you any where, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
 

Smokin_Joe

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Location
Surrey BC
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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Hi Smokin_Joe -

May I ask who your dealer is? I also am from Surrey (2010 TDI - 100,000 km, no problems)
Waiting to hear back from the Regional Rep and I wouldn't want to come across as pointing at any particular dealer.
Some of the people have been helpful, others not.
I will hold off reveling at the moment.
One interesting tid bit.
The Rep said all the Jetta TDI's were not having a rust problem.
My Golf was made in Germany and the Jetta is made in Mexico I believe.
I wonder if the steel in the sending unit from Mexico is a better composition for to withstand North American fuel.
Interesting....hmmm





What testing did they do to prove contaminated fuel? If it was detailed enough, then you might be able to go after fuel station. If they do not have a detailed report, then go back and get someone to explain to you why they believe is was contaminated fuel. none of this may get you any where, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
None that I am aware of. As soon as they saw rust in the filter they said warranty wouldn't cover it. They thought we were going to give them the go ahead to clean and replace parts of the fuel system.
Told the wife to leave with the new HPFP installed.
The car has been back for further examination and it has been officially denied warranty in writing. Saying contamination pointing to the rusted 1/2 steel rods in the sending unit.
***Edited***
No tests were shown to me to substantiate the charge of contamination, all visual inspection.
They have no real proof of contamination except the fact the rods are rusted. Couldn't be the quality of the steel used. Has to be contaminated fuel.
I disagree!
End of Edit***

You would think the little wires in the sending unit would have failed as well. Erratic fuel level signals etc. No erratic behavior.
I presented my case to the District rep and I wait to hear back from him next week.
I am currently having a problem with this thread. I seem to be stuck on page 400 and I deleted my cache.
Any suggestions, Running firefox with no script.
 
Last edited:

Smokin_Joe

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Location
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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
VW Canada will not cover the HPFP outside the bumper-to-bumper warranty. It isn't even considered part of the powertrain. I was denied coverage at around 90k km. With much arguing I was able to get VW to cover 2/3 of the cost of a remanufactured pump, but I opted for a new pump so the coverage was actually 50%. They did not change anything else in the fuel system as they claimed no other damage, the pump just wasn't delivering, according to them, rated pressure, and there were some metal shavings, but the pump had not actually failed.

I'm pretty sure though that the pump was not at fault for my power loss at WOT, but rather moisture in the IC as the problem continued after the new pump was installed.
Did you take a look at the fuel filter?
Did they examine the sending unit?
My sending unit has rust on the rods and the filter was plugged with rust.
HPFP worked fine after the filter was replaced.
 

JBell

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Do you guys have some sort of Better Business Bureau that you can have arbitration through? This is generally stated in the Owner's Manual somewhere.
 

Smokin_Joe

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Location
Surrey BC
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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Do you guys have some sort of Better Business Bureau that you can have arbitration through. This is generally stated in the Owner's Manual somewhere.
CAMVAP for binding arbitration.
http://www.camvap.ca/
A settlement is negotiated and after which you have no legal recourse.
I don't feel like settling for something that I feel is a manufacturing defect.
 
Last edited:

Smokin_Joe

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2011 Golf TDI Highline returned for refund
Volkswagen rep called and told me he has approved repairs, for research purposes.
I will post details after repairs completed
 

SilverGhost

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I had an interesting chat with academy instructor. He had heard that VW was checking stations and transport trucks for fuel contamination. He said something, I had heard before in the business, that the truck delivering fuel switch back and forth from gas to diesel. Not great but the worst part is, what happens when there is a couple hundred gallons of gasoline on the bottom of the tank (of the transport truck) that either didn't fit in the station's tank or doesn't normally pump out during an off load? A good driver takes the extra time to manually dump the tanks and purge the lines when changing fuel types.

BTW, did you notice that Flying J, Pilot, and Loves all have their own fuel tankers. And that they have different companies deliver their gas products? Much less chance (imposible?) to cross contaminate the fuels and much higher turn over of diesel.

But on to the more relavent part - the gasoline "exploding" in the injector tip is what was implied to be the root cause of the HPFP failure. The resulting return flow of contaminated fuel from the injectors gets into the pump and leads to its failure. What I like about this explaination is that the major difference from B/G/J and the Passat is the former has Piezio injectors and the later has solenoid injectors.

Jason
 

40X40

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I had an interesting chat with academy instructor. He had heard that VW was checking stations and transport trucks for fuel contamination. He said something, I had heard before in the business, that the truck delivering fuel switch back and forth from gas to diesel. Not great but the worst part is, what happens when there is a couple hundred gallons of gasoline on the bottom of the tank (of the transport truck) that either didn't fit in the station's tank or doesn't normally pump out during an off load? A good driver takes the extra time to manually dump the tanks and purge the lines when changing fuel types.

BTW, did you notice that Flying J, Pilot, and Loves all have their own fuel tankers. And that they have different companies deliver their gas products? Much less chance (imposible?) to cross contaminate the fuels and much higher turn over of diesel.

But on to the more relavent part - the gasoline "exploding" in the injector tip is what was implied to be the root cause of the HPFP failure. The resulting return flow of contaminated fuel from the injectors gets into the pump and leads to its failure. What I like about this explaination is that the major difference from B/G/J and the Passat is the former has Piezio injectors and the later has solenoid injectors.

Jason
1. Several HUNDRED gallons in a single tanker compartment never, ever happens.

2. They sell enough fuel that it makes economic sense to have their own tanker fleet, no big deal.

Bill
 

SilverGhost

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The way the information was relayed to me, I assumed there had been confirmed cases of over 200 gallons of gasoline left in the tanker when refilled with diesel. But of course I'm just relaying 2nd hand info. Only reason I trust it is because of the source.

I was asking a leading question about the truck stops' fuel trucks. Having talked to friends that are in/around the business I learned that they never carry gasoline in those trucks. That would lead to statistically insignificant chance of cross contamiantion.

Jason
 

ticketed2much

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But on to the more relavent part - the gasoline "exploding" in the injector tip is what was implied to be the root cause of the HPFP failure. The resulting return flow of contaminated fuel from the injectors gets into the pump and leads to its failure. What I like about this explaination is that the major difference from B/G/J and the Passat is the former has Piezio injectors and the later has solenoid injectors.

Jason
Never heard of gas exploding in diesel injectors? The Passat also uses a slightly differently designed HPFP and much lower rail pressures.
 

SilverGhost

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I used "exploding" because I was too lazy at that point to elaborate.

We already know that water will flash off to steam rapidly and cause damage to diesel injector tips. And if you have ever heard an older model diesel that got misfueled with gasoline then you know about severe knock. Gasoline does not adequately lubricate and burns at much faster rate. Those two properties are causing damage to injectors and, as it was relayed to me, the return flow of debris to the HPFP is what is primary cause of failure.

Please do tell - how much is much lower? And is that peak or mean operating pressure? Not trying to argue, I just want to know for my own curiosity.

Jason
 

tditom

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...But on to the more relavent part - the gasoline "exploding" in the injector tip is what was implied to be the root cause of the HPFP failure. The resulting return flow of contaminated fuel from the injectors gets into the pump and leads to its failure. What I like about this explaination is that the major difference from B/G/J and the Passat is the former has Piezio injectors and the later has solenoid injectors.

Jason
This was discussed a couple of years ago here and at myturbodiesel.
That's a link to a post made by a former member of tdiclub. It is pure speculation on his part. I don't see how you can determine that this is a valid probable root cause without data to back that up. Please don't spread it as gospel truth onto tdiclub without facts to back it up.
 

South Coast Guy

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That's a link to a post made by a former member of tdiclub. It is pure speculation on his part. I don't see how you can determine that this is a valid probable root cause without data to back that up. Please don't spread it as gospel truth onto tdiclub without facts to back it up.
Ditto.
 

kjclow

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That's a link to a post made by a former member of tdiclub. It is pure speculation on his part. I don't see how you can determine that this is a valid probable root cause without data to back that up. Please don't spread it as gospel truth onto tdiclub without facts to back it up.
You really mean, "Please don't bring that thread back to life".
 

SilverGhost

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As to the post linked from MyTurboDiesel, I was not even aware it existed.

And I don't know to whom you were refering in the gospel comment, but I was sharing my opinion based on what I was told. Being that my instructor is still employeed by VWGofA, I did not want to cause him problems while sharing what I thought was a crediable and viable information about these HPFP failures.

I read the first couple posts from that link and the theory put forth seems to match the failure mode relayed to our class by the instructor. I will be first to state I do not know the engineering in depth and cannot verify the details.

Seems like a simple fix in any case is to block or filter the return flow from the injectors from reaching the HPFP. I believe someone has already made a fine looking piece of hardware to achieve this that bolts to the HPFP.

Jason
 

ticketed2much

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