To suck or not to suck? That is the question...

jmanner has me worried. He said he tried the suction method to drain his oil and had about 1/2 quart leftover. This led me to an interesting discovery:



As you can see from the photo a TDI's dipstick, fully inserted, won't reach anywhere near to the bottom of the pan. Note that the dipstick stops well above the bottom of the oil pump pickup tube...as you'd expect. However, even the PICKUP TUBE doesn't reach nearly to the bottom of the pan, and the next pic will show you why...



Notice that there is a weird plastic baffle in the oil pan! The pump actually draws oil from ABOVE this baffle. (I assume the baffle is intended to prevent the oil from splashing around, though I don't really know.)

The white circle is drawn around a small notch in the baffle. (It's difficult to see.) I'm pretty sure the tip of the dipstick is supposed to poke through the little notch. Below that, there is nothing to impede an oil suction tube from striking the bottom of the pan. The bottom is slightly bevelled along the edges, so you'd need the suction tube to bend on the bottom. If you feel it hitting the bottom and push it down another inch or two you should get more oil out. BUT: If the tube hits the plastic baffle you'll leave nearly a gallon in there!

Comments? To be honest, I've only used the suction method on my Mercedes...and it works great. Others have had success with TDIs, but jmanner may have run into a snag that we'll need to be aware of in the future.

-mickey



[This message has been edited by mickey (edited November 30, 2000).]

I think you're right about the that baffle mickey. I've seen it other cars. I believe it's there to stop the spashing oil making "ploinking" noises.

Hey I just invented a new word!

Thanks for this. I suppose it's a question of monitoring the sort of quantity you expect to drain out. I recall from the pic of that Topmaster [sorry if I have the name wrong] unit that it had a metal receptacle. Pouring the oil into a translucent 5-litre plastic container so you can see how much has been drawn out would help - if it looks insufficient, fiddle around with the tube a bit and try for more?

Suggested mod for whoever makes the Topmaster - a see-thru' capacity-marked container?

The baffle is there to makes sure all the oil does'nt end up in one corner of the pan during hard cornering. That would lead to the oil pump pumping air for a second or two...very bad for bearings. Older style pumps had a baffle that clipped onto the oil pickup tube. Does the new style baffle have a vertical rib that extends from the bottom of the pan to the baffle and divides the pan into two chambers?

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couple of Rabbits, a Golf and a Passat TDI

rabbit - you are right - haven't yall been up on the performance stuff?

Oil pan baffles are primo importance to high G driving styles.

It keeps the oil from sloshing around to the point that the suction tube pulls air through the system.

Can you imagine what might happen if a little air got up to the Turbo? Kinda like injecting Air into you own blood stream. death - the oil pan baffles prevent death!

Use the drain plug okay!

HA HA now you HAVE to crawl under there - nothing like a good set of Rhino Ramps (on sale now at http://www.FarmandCountry.com stores $29.99 . . . get your self a little wheelie thing and boom even more relaxing than pumping.

Mickey,

Do our TDI's come with windage trays?



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ANTARTI
99.5 Jetta TDI GL Silver Arrow/Grey Studio

Thanks Mickey! A picture is worth a thousand words. Now I won't suck.

The baffle also keeps the oil from splashing on the crank and decreasing performance.

mickey,

In other postings, it was mentioned to cut a slant at the tube end. I am wondering if you put the tube in one way, would it go over the baffle? If you put it in the other way, it would stop short. You know, catch my drift? Also a mark at the tube would help. Next time you know how much of the tube must go in.

Just a thought.
Brad

Mickey,

Great pics and thanks! I'm in the camp of drain AND suck as I've thought of another possible benefit of the baffle.

At 5,000 miles, the dealer had changed the oil on my Golf but used a non CH-4 Oil. I treated it as a "flush" and changed it to Delvac-1 and put in a new oil filter 70 miles later at home. I drained the oil and also used suction to get all of the "black" 70 mile oil from the oil filter case and below.

However, when I poured that "70 mile" oil into a container, there were small filings at the bottom of the drain pan!!??

I suspect that the dealer did not drain the oil, but merely sucked out the oil, and that the break-in filings didn't get taken out of the oil pan.

In looking at your photo, I could envision how that baffle not only allows the filings to settle down to the bottom of the pan, but also helps minimize the filings from being churned up into the oil (from the journals of the crankshaft dropping down into the oil) and then getting back into the engine.

By the way, with that second oil change and the suction, the oil stayed amber for about 600 miles before it started to get a grey cast and then go dark.

I'll continue to treat the dealer's remaining free oil changes as "flushes" and do the same process. Since my local Discount Auto Parts store has repackaged CH-4 rated Shell Rotella T 15-40 (non-syn) for $4.99/gallon, I will likely use that for a flush of a few miles and then put in Delvac-1, each time I do oil changes.

I also question the idea that the baffle helps the oil pump to pickup oil on hard curves. Oil will move quickly under side g-forces, and will not be held back by a horzontal baffle; vertical yes but not a horizontal. Was there a vertical piece below what we see in the photo?

Thanks for your emails back to me on some questions I had, and thanks for being a moderating, knowledgable and influencial lead on this Forum!

Cheers!



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Here's the clip-on baffle from mid 80s cars with the high volume oil pump. It has two baffles that extend to the bottom of the pan http://rapidparts.com/Pages/vwc020i.html
Here is an excellent aftermarket piece that has compartments that extend to the bottom of the pan. http://rapidparts.com/Pages/vwc016i.html
It also ups the oil capacity to 5.3 quarts, I run these on my A1 and A2 cars.
The curved, horizontal portion of the baffle visible in Mickey's photo is to prevent the crank from foaming the oil. If VW calls that thing a baffle, the baffles (vertical dividers are underneath). If they're not there, VW screwed up. 99% of the point of tricking up an oilpan is to dam up the oil under the pickup (ask the owners of the previous generation M3s who did highspeed events on ovals)

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couple of Rabbits, a Golf and a Passat TDI

sierraent, thanks for your posts. I had a similar dealer experience. The Delvac 1 I gave them was black when I picked up the car. I can only conclude that they left a significant amount of dirty oil in the system somehow--possibly by sucking. I'm going to treat that change as a "flush" and change the oil myself in the very near future. From now on, I'll use their "free" oil as a flush and then change to my own Delvac later.

Thanks again for the great information, mickey!

Hi,

How 'bout using that hollow dain plug intended for bypass oil filter returns to introduce a tube that terminates somewhere near the top of the engine in an accessable spot to suck through?

Dan

Mickey, I bought a Topsider MVP yesterday. They can be purchased at marine stores or via catalog or directly from the mfg.

I was able to extract nearly 4 qts. so I guess there was probably some oil left over in the bottom of the pan. The tubes/hoses provided with the Topsider are quite soft. I was going to try to find a rigid tube to stick down the dipstick and see if I could pull out more oil. That may be a better solution.

You can tell the tube provided with the Topsider is just bending when its inserted and you can push lots of extra and uneeded tubing down the dipstick.

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96 TDI Wagon, ABS, emerald green
00 Jetta TDI GLS, silver arrow, CWP, LUX1, etc, etc.

Mickey thanks for the great pictures and dieseldorf thanks for your latest report on the sucking method. Now I am also worried. I was also going to try extracting the oil but now am undecided. However there must be 300/400 ml left in the filter cannister when you remove the filter so you may have extracted most of the oil?

Is there anyone else out there that can update us on the actual amount of oil they remove by this process? Your advice is appreciated and will help me decide if I will be buying low profile ramps or some type of extractor. Thanks

If you can get close to 1 gallon you're there. You can't get ALL of the oil out by any means. The filter soaks some up, the filter housing (on an A4) holds some, the inside of the entire engine is coated with it, etc. The simplest way to check is to pull the drain plug AFTER you suck and see how much comes out. A thin trickle may look like a lot, but if you measure it I think you'll find out that it's negligable.

It's been so long since I've seen a living, breathing TDI I've forgotten: Does the engine tilt backward at the top at all? Is the bottom of the oil pan LEVEL when the car itself is level? It's possible they designed it so that when the wheels are level the oil will tend to flow toward the back so it'll drain better. If that is the case you may want to back the REAR wheels up a ramp slightly or otherwise have the nose lower than the rear so that the oil will flow toward the FRONT of the car...where the dipstick tube is.

If the suction tube hangs up on the baffle you won't leave a little bit of oil in there. You'll leave at least half of it. The question is what the tube does at the bottom of the pan, and what kind of tube (soft or rigid...no smartass comments!) is better to use.

-mickey

Mickey,

I also made a oil suction containter from a used 1 quart Tuppeware container, I call a "Tupper-Sucker".

I just drilled two holes in the lid, used two pieces of 1/2" o.d. heavy vacumn line I had, connected one lead to my hand vacumn pump and the other lead into each of the 2 holes at the bottom of the oil filter housing.

I found I could build up to 15 inches of vacumn when I jammed the line to the bottom of each hole, and then slowly raised the line and let the vacumn built up in the "Tupper-Sucker" (patent pending, of course! ) do its thing. The oil builds up in the container as you use the vacum pump.




Cheers!



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Hmmmm...."Tupper Sucker". That puts the Tupperwear Party concept in a whole new light.

-mickey

p.s. That sort of thing really isn't my bag, baby.

Originally posted by dieseldorf:
"The tubes/hoses provided with the Topsider are quite soft."

...Marinading them in a Viagra solution overnight helps, or so I'm told....

Whats wrong with taking the cover off and letting the oil drain?? You will make sure that all old oil is drained. removeing the plastic cover only should take a few minutes.

Has anyone ever thought to make a trap door where the oil plug is? Cut out a peice of the plastic shield and rig up some kind of removable door that is easier to take off than the whole under cover itself.

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Jason Ivany
01 Golf GL TDI
84 MKII Toyota Supra

Sierraent thanks for your post. How much oil do you remove with the tupper sucker?
Do you have the back wheels higher than the front ie: on a slope driveway? When you extract via the oil filter cannister does the tube go into the oil pan? Your assistance is appreciated.

Tom

when I extracted my oil on a couple of days ago using the Topsider, I got nearly fours quarts out. Maybe that's as good as it gets!? It would be nice not to have to climb under the car and remove the plastic encapsulation panel.

I am still going to try to find a rigid piece of plastic tubing for my next change. You cannot determine when the soft plastic tube has hit the bottom...it's just too limp!!
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96 TDI Wagon, ABS, emerald green
00 Jetta TDI GLS, silver arrow, CWP, LUX1, etc, etc.

[This message has been edited by dieseldorf (edited December 03, 2000).]

Tompick,

There was about 12 or so ounces in the "Tupper-Sucker".

I had the car pointed slightly uphill in my driveway as from under the car, upside down, the pulg then looked to be at the lowest point of the pan.

The tech when I aksed before he changed the oil at the 5k sevice, how he gets the oil out of the filter housing, said that they pull the filter first, then lower the pan, drain the oil, and by then the filter housing has drained.

Not so. I followed that sequence as but there was still the 12 ounces in the cavity, etc...

When I showed the tube in the right hole at the bottom of the oil filter cavity, it went in a couple of inches, but from Mickey's pics, I don't think it went into the oil pan. It went into the left hole even less.

Even when I sucked out the oil from both holes, there was still about 1/4" to 3/8" of oil left at the bottom of the oil filter cavity as the holes are above the bottom of teh cavity. This is where the "Tupper-Sucker" really shines.

I just stuck the end of the hose on the bottom of the cavity creating a sealed line, pulled 15 inches of vacumn and slowly raised the hose, and it did its thing and got all of the oil out.

TDI jason,

Others have mentioned making a small panel to access the oil, but it has to be fairly large to ensurte that some oil does not get caught in the cover, and then slowly stain your garage/driveway weeks later.

I will be producing a limited run of "Tupper-Suckers" to give away (that's right folks FREE) at the 12-9 GTG in Sunrise (Ft. Lauderdale) that Preston Jennings is organizing for Rene's Upsolute installion.

First come first s***** ( gatcha, its; "first served").



Cheers!


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TDIjason: Ever seen my driveway? It ain't pretty. And draining oil in the middle of January isn't much fun. I've spent an awful lot of time scrabbling around in oily slush, and I see no redeeming value in it.

-mickey

sierraent, that's a good suggestion to use the suction probe to vacuum out the bit of remaining oil left in the cartrdige housing. I did not think of doing that when I did my change last week.

Has anyone measured how much oil comes out when draining via the drain plug???????

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96 TDI Wagon, ABS, emerald green
00 Jetta TDI GLS, silver arrow, CWP, LUX1, etc, etc.

Settle this now!

Just suck till you can't suck no more.

Then drain.

The amount you drain is the oil that isn't sucked. Simple.

(I drain. I don't suck.)

David

On reading these posts, I am getting the impression that when you drain the oil (drain plug-non-suck method) on the TDIs with the cartridge type filter you are not getting all the oil out. Is this true?

Gewilli:
If you don't suck the oil out of the filter housing how much oil are we talking about?

Sucking certainly does have its merits and can make the oil change task quicker.

I don't have to lift up the car to remove the plastic panel. I don't have to remove the panel. I don't have to remove the drain plug. I don't have to replace the drain plug gasket. I don't have to put the plastic panel back in place once the oil has been drained. I don't have to put my floor jack away.

Hmmmmmmmm, there are a couple of decent reasons. The oil change process on the A4 is so much easier than the A3 version since you have access to the oil filter from the top and without the mess involved with the earlier cars.

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96 TDI Wagon, ABS, emerald green
00 Jetta TDI GLS, silver arrow, CWP, LUX1, etc, etc.

Yes. That is true.

The Anti-drain back valve is part of the engine design. Taking that problem away from idiots who choose to use non-OEM quality metal anti-drainback valves in the oil filter.

You cannot remove 100% of the oil easily. You can get very close Draining the oil and then Sucking the rest out from the bottom of the Oil filter housing.

Personally this extra remainder oil really isn't work trying to get out. If you are using a synthetic don't worry about it.