ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?'s

SLAB

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

i am swapping an A4 TDI (ALH) engine into a VW Vanagon to replace its wasserboxer lump.

it is a NEW engine, never used, and it has a MECHANICAL injection pump installed in place of the standard electronic pump

i need to figure out how to make this thing run, and work.

i dont have the origional ECU, nor do i need it because of the mechanical pump, so i am under the understanding that all i need to do to make this engine run is supply it with FUEL, and the starter with power.

also, how would i control boost with the variable-vain turbo?can i use a standard boost controller?


also, how do i SHUT IT OFF? i noticed there is a vacuum solenoid, and what looks similar to a throttle flap on the intake manifold...does this shut, choking the engine for air, thus shutting it off?

i was planning on hooking up a fuel pump relay to the ignition, and to this vacuum throttle thing, so whith ignition ON, the pump is running, the throttle is open, and all i have to do is crank the engine over and it will run...hopefully (glow plugs will be on a seperate relay, with a momentary pushbutton switch)


all or most of the sensors seem to be installed on the car.

do any of them give off a tach signal? (not TOO important, but nice)

also, is that the vacuum pump that is on the end of the cam?

sorry for all the questions, but this seems like THE place to be for TDI help
thanks!
 

mgwerks

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Location
Texas Hill Country
TDI
black 1999 New Beetle
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

i am swapping an A4 TDI (ALH) engine into a VW Vanagon to replace its wasserboxer lump.

it is a NEW engine, never used, and it has a MECHANICAL injection pump installed in place of the standard electronic pump

i need to figure out how to make this thing run, and work.
If you are installing an A4 ALH engine, it has a mechanical fuel pump - that's one for you. There was no electronic pump.


i dont have the origional ECU, nor do i need it because of the mechanical pump, so i am under the understanding that all i need to do to make this engine run is supply it with FUEL, and the starter with power.
This vehicle will not runwithout the ECU in the standardd ALS trim. The ECU controls the pump for both throttle and fuel supply. Notwithstanding all the other sensor readings it uses in deciding power application. You're gonna need a lot more than fuel and electricity.



also, how would i control boost with the variable-vain turbo?can i use a standard boost controller?
No, the ALH motor is designed to use a specific vacuum valve - get it off the firewall. And the rest of the vacuum system, while you're there.



also, how do i SHUT IT OFF? i noticed there is a vacuum solenoid, and what looks similar to a throttle flap on the intake manifold...does this shut, choking the engine for air, thus shutting it off?
The ECU will kill the fuel supply when signal is dropped. I told you that ECU would come in handy!



i was planning on hooking up a fuel pump relay to the ignition, and to this vacuum throttle thing, so whith ignition ON, the pump is running, the throttle is open, and all i have to do is crank the engine over and it will run...hopefully (glow plugs will be on a seperate relay, with a momentary pushbutton switch)
The thing you are calling a throttle is the anti-shudder valve. It is not used for throttling the engnie, but closes for 3 seconds on engine shutdown so as to reduce shaking.


all or most of the sensors seem to be installed on the car.
Yep, and you'll need most of them.



do any of them give off a tach signal? (not TOO important, but nice)
Signal comes from ECU, whick reads it from engine.



also, is that the vacuum pump that is on the end of the cam?
Yes. That's two for you.



sorry for all the questions, but this seems like THE place to be for TDI help
thanks!
There is a Vanagon TDI out there, I've seen the pix. Might take some searching to find it, it's been a while.

Mark
 

Fahrvergnuugen

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Location
Great Sacandaga Lake, NY, USA
TDI
1990 Jetta ALH TDI
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

i know what he is talking about... there is a kit that will allow the ALH TDI to run ECUless, though it doesn't make as much power. I've seen advertisements for it in some VW parts catalogs. I have done a swap into an MK2, but I used the ECU since I want as much power as possible and I don't know enough about how the "mechanical" setup works.
 

Herm TDI

Vendor
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
TDI
2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

I assume that you are installing a marine / industrial ALH TDI.
This engine does indeed have a manchanical Ing pump.
The pump has a fuel cut-off valve...simply wire it to the ignition switch or mount a switch on the dash wired to the battery.

To control boost ..use a Dawes device..a manually adjusted boost controller.

To shut it off...simply cut off the fuel

To adjust the timing you'll need to get the spech sheet and the special tool ...
I assume that a dial guage and and VW tool #2066 might work to adjust timing on this pump but you'll have to verifi this with the engine vendor.

Other than the injection timing....this engine is exactly the same as the automotive ALH TDI.

Keep us posted on your progress..please..I'd love to hang this engine into an A-3 Golf !
 

mgwerks

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Location
Texas Hill Country
TDI
black 1999 New Beetle
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

My bad. I assumed that by saying he was installing an A4 ALH engine that he meant one from an A4, not the marine/industrial powerplant. I'd like to see pic of the progress too.
 

Herm TDI

Vendor
Joined
Nov 21, 2001
Location
Richmond, Maine...The far side of Witsend
TDI
2002 Golf GLS Malone Stage 3, P+520 nozzles, 11MM Inj pump, Sachs VR6 clutch, Stelth Race Pipe, Immo Deleat, EGR Deleat
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

Here is a photo of the "A-4" ALH TDI with a machanical injection pump:



You run this engine without the ECU..and use the Dawes device to control boost

What...will we do without a check engine light ???
 

VelvetFoot

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 17, 2001
Location
Sand Lake, NY
TDI
NB, 2000, Yellow
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

The fellow at the fest used an A3 type I believe. The industrial engine that was on the brochure was drive by wire, so this must be something else.
 

SLAB

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

mgwerks....thanks for the sarcasm....really dont need that...
that injection pump on the A4 Jetta? see all thoes wires coming out of it? it is a belt-driven ELECTRONIC pump...you know, the same pump you plug a tuning box into? you said it yourself!
The ECU controls the pump for both throttle and fuel supply
...sheesh...


all i know is that they gave me a vanagon, an engine mount kit, and this engine on a pallet.

ALL I KNOW ABOUT THIS ENGINE is that it has ALH stamped on it, and has a mechanical pump that has the part # for a 1982 diesel rabbit pump, but i was told that this pump was rebuilt, and sized (injectors?) 10% larger than the pump that was on there...

after HOURS of research, i have vound there is a solenoid on the pump to shut the car off, that i have to supply it with approx. 3.0 bar of fuel pressure, that the RPM sensor on the crank MIGHT give off a tach signal, that the engine WILL run without an ECU, that the variable vane turbo works just like a normal wastegate, and that i can just REMOVE the anti-shudder valve (thanks again mgwerks...i KNOW diesels dont have throttles like gassers...)


also, this pump uses a mechanical linkage for the accelerator pedal


thanks to all others, and im going to try to snap a few pics of this thing so you can followalong
 

mgwerks

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2003
Location
Texas Hill Country
TDI
black 1999 New Beetle
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

Slab,

There might have been a sarcastic cant to my response, but mostly it was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek and reasonably responsive. If my tone offended you, sorry. Several thing you said in your original post indicated that you were swapping it from a car platorm into the van and didn't have too many details. Things like it's from an A4, and "i dont have the origional ECU", which furthered that thought in my mind. Let's not get all bent out of shape here. You included information in the post quoted above that would have avoided the whole issue, like it was a Rabbit pump, and that the engine, van and kit were purchased together. and it is really a belt-driven mechanical pump, with electronic quantity management - but we might be splitting hairs there.

I will defer to others with Dawes experience, but my understanding is that saying "the variable vane turbo works just like a normal wastegate" is not correct and isn't controlled the same way. One releases overpressure through the waste gate, and the other varies pressure on the impeller through the variable vanes opening/closing.

No harm, no foul, and I will be watching your swap with equal interest as many others. Best of luck, and lots of pix!

Mark
 

SLAB

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2004
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

i can understand this, but at the time of posting, i was told that the engine was ment to be installed into an A4 jetta, and origionally HAD an electronic pump (i knew they wer ALL belt driven...i ment that one has wires, and one doesnt) which was replaced with the rabbit pump (they didnt even BOTHER to re-install the belt, but thats another thread)

i think the end result with my engine is one that closely resembles the marine/industrial TDI...
 

robnitro

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Location
NYC area, NY
TDI
2001 Jetta TDI GLS silver
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

How is the oilpan setup in that vanagon? Looks like it would be at a 45 degree angle which cant be good for the oil pickup/ crankshaft?
 

piper106

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 7, 2002
Location
Grosse Ile MI
TDI
2001 New Beetle Blue
ENGINE SWAP! A4 TDI engine, VTN turbo ?\'s

A mechanical injection pump will make a swap a lot easier (no ECU, no IMMO issues), but...

You say the injection pump has a part number for 1982 Rabbit. If that is true there likely will be problems down the road. The TDI engines needs a lot higher inection pressure (about 800 bar vs. 350 or so for the Rabbit), and the higher pressure means the pump is harder to turn. The drive shaft on the Rabbit pump is 17 mm diameter where as a TDI pump has a 20 mm diameter drive shaft to handle the higher torque. I have not seen it, but one of the other boards says that the smaller drive shaft will break fairly quickly under the higher load. There are mechanical govered pumps with the bigger drive shaft just like the TDI pump, but the Rabbit did not have the big drive shaft.

Plus your source says the pump was upgraded for 10% more delivery. Also interesting. Wonder how they did that in a Rabbit pump body. There are traps there also.

Piper106
 
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