NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

CT2010TDI

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Location
New England
TDI
2010 jetta TDI
Wherever I see a CR TDI, I either talk to the owner, or slip a card under their wiper blade that says: "Google 'HPFP VW TDI'"

Some people will check it out some will not.

Most people I see at the gas pump have never heard of the issue.

Awareness will help everyone.
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Wherever I see a CR TDI, I either talk to the owner, or slip a card under their wiper blade that says: "Google 'HPFP VW TDI'"

Some people will check it out some will not.

Most people I see at the gas pump have never heard of the issue.

Awareness will help everyone.
I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers here but this is effing crazy.
Knowing about it if you approached me with this line I'd suggest you getting a plastic bubble to travel in.
 

tdipoet

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Location
hooksett, nh
TDI
'11 Jetta TDI
i don't want a 100k warranty on the damned thing. if i can't expect it to last for 250k, i'm not happy. i don't need the thing to never fail, but i do need to protected from the fallout. tell you what vw, i'll buy the pump - you can pay for any additional damage the failure causes, k?
 

Thunderstruck

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Location
Chicago
TDI
2015 GTI SE 6M
If a .50 cent sun visor retaining clip failed
NHTSA needs to launch an investigation immediately, and force VW to replace all the visors and give everyone a 100K mile warranty on their visors. I'm going to slip a card under every VW's wiper blade that says "google sun visor VW":rolleyes:
 

DasTeknoViking

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Location
Palatine IL
TDI
B4 TDi, A4 R32
^^^ LOL awesome. They most likely will just extend the warranty for XXXXXX miles, like they did on a ton of stuff:
Cam follower, Diverter valves, intake manifolds, Mechatronix units etc on MKV GTi.

I have a VW tech for a friend, and another one as my close cousin.... both know about the HPFP issue and both work at large VW dealers and both have seen 1-2 failures in the last 2 years. With the amount of people buying these cars I wouldn't worry much about it. Its not as wide spread as cam follower issues on FSi motors, hell even piston rings being bad on FSi are more common than TDi HPFP failure.
 

South Coast Guy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Location
Mattapoisett, MA
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI wagon
As I mentioned before, the HPFP failure may be big news here, but there is no mention of it in the auto press or Consumers Reports. Unless that happens (think 1972 Ford Pinto) there will be no affect on prices.
 

Engineers<3Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Location
North Carolina
TDI
2012 VW Jetta TDI
I think the fact that VW has yet to have data show up on the NHTSA board is starting to affect some folks. I mean putting cards on people's windshields to scare them? I think we just need to sit back, grab a beer and wait for what VW has to say. Getting folks spun up without seeing more data around the failures does nothing.
 

Runnerguy45

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Location
Outer Banks NC
TDI
2011 Black JSW, 2015 Golf
Wherever I see a CR TDI, I either talk to the owner, or slip a card under their wiper blade that says: "Google 'HPFP VW TDI'"

Some people will check it out some will not.

Most people I see at the gas pump have never heard of the issue.

Awareness will help everyone.

Really ? are you serious ? thats what you do ? I've heard everything now.
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
i don't want a 100k warranty on the damned thing. if i can't expect it to last for 250k, i'm not happy.
The hpfp piston / roller assembly can be removed for inspection very easily on these cars (in like 10 mins). I predict that in a very short time, aftermarket companies will specialize in re-coating hpfp pistons with extremely tough anti-friction materials and offer re-coated pistons on an exchange basis if Bosch doesn't offer individual parts for the hpfp.

A person could do a quick check of the housing bore with an inside micrometer or bore gauge and a quick visual inspection of the cam lobes to make sure that the cam isn't torn up, insert a pump piston with improved coatings, put it back together and be good to go (probably for the life of the car 400k+ miles). If it makes you sleep better at night, you could pull the pump piston every 50k miles or so and see how the coating is holding up.

Seriously. This issue is way easier to deal with than failed cams on P.D. cars.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
The hpfp piston / roller assembly can be removed for inspection very easily on these cars (in like 10 mins). I predict that in a very short time, aftermarket companies will specialize in re-coating hpfp pistons with extremely tough anti-friction materials and offer re-coated pistons on an exchange basis if Bosch doesn't offer individual parts for the hpfp.
A person could do a quick check of the housing bore with an inside micrometer or bore gauge and a quick visual inspection of the cam lobes to make sure that the cam isn't torn up, insert a pump piston with improved coatings, put it back together and be good to go (probably for the life of the car 400k+ miles). If it makes you sleep better at night, you could pull the pump piston every 50k miles or so and see how the coating is holding up.
Seriously. This issue is way easier to deal with than failed cams on P.D. cars.
Yes, it is true that you can indeed remove the piston/roller in just a few minutes,but its my belief that the piston/roller is NOT the problem. The problem is the wear in the aluminum bore that the piston/roller rides in.This is where those initial tiny aluminum particles come from. So,no amount of space age coating on the piston is going to protect the aluminum bore from premature wear,unless that coating is capable of no wear with low lubricity fuel in the aluminum bore.Coating the bore on the other hand should provide wear protection. BUT coating the bore requires removing the hpfp and sending it somewhere for coating. A few years ago I took a hpfp to a skilled machinist who suggested coating the bore with nicasil. Cost at that time was around $480. In retrospect,I wish I had followed through and removed the hpfp on my 09 JSW and had the bore coated,maybe I would still be driving it the 09. LOVED that car. LOL
So,a fix is not just as easy as you elude to.
 
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TDI WNY

Well-known member
Joined
May 18, 2010
Location
East Amherst, NY
TDI
2015 GSW TDI SEL
I hope VW reads this Forum

If it's such an easy fix, VW should make the part and service available. Even if it cost $500, I would pay for it to avoid worrying about an outrageously expensive repair.

I checked with my VW dealer in Western New York and they said they have never seen this HPFP failure but other customers are also asking.

It is such a fun car to drive I hate the idea of selling it before the warranty runs out. I assume the power train warranty would cover the massive $8-10 thousand dollar repair should the HPFP failure occur???
 
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pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
The only pic of a failed unit I've seen it appeared that is was the roller that failed. Now maybe the bore had failed also. It sure would be nice to be able to see a few more failed pumps.
 

Plus 3 Golfer

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Location
ARIZONA
TDI
Und tschüss! 2009 Jetta 12/23/2012
The hpfp piston / roller assembly can be removed for inspection very easily on these cars (in like 10 mins). I predict that in a very short time, aftermarket companies will specialize in re-coating hpfp pistons with extremely tough anti-friction materials and offer re-coated pistons on an exchange basis if Bosch doesn't offer individual parts for the hpfp.

A person could do a quick check of the housing bore with an inside micrometer or bore gauge and a quick visual inspection of the cam lobes to make sure that the cam isn't torn up, insert a pump piston with improved coatings, put it back together and be good to go (probably for the life of the car 400k+ miles). If it makes you sleep better at night, you could pull the pump piston every 50k miles or so and see how the coating is holding up.

Seriously. This issue is way easier to deal with than failed cams on P.D. cars.
The issue with inspecting periodically is that we know that one tank of "bad" fuel can lead to failure quite quickly and we don't know what is "acceptable wear" and what isn't. So, a 50k, 40k, 30k or even a 20k mile inspection is likely not going to "catch" a failure. Inspection every say 500-1000 miles is likely not practicable for most but is likely what would be needed to "catch" a failure before it happens.

Perhaps the latest Rev. 3 pump already has such a coating. I can't believe that Bosch and VW have not been addressing the root cause of these failures. Look at the new Ford documents recently posted on NHTSA on their 6.7? liter diesel with respect to ITP (internal transfer pump) and HPFP failure. And BTW, Ford has seen HPFP failures in Mexico that they blame on poor lubricity of PEMEX fuel. There is also analysis of fuel survey data for many countries similar.

There's also the possibility that a potential failure could be detected in enough time that allows the car to operate in "limp" mode (perhaps lower pressures) so the driver has enough time to pull off the road prior to the car stalling. If the driver is given sufficient time to react while driving rather than the sudden stalling of the vehicle, safety is likely no longer an issue. It certainly takes time for the significant amount of metal contamination that we've seen pumped throughout the fuel system before stalling. There's likely changes in operational data that can be used to assess the health of the pump and potential for failure.

So, IMHO an extended warranty (10 /120), software update for safety (which also should lessen the likelihood of the catastrophic failure sending metal everywhere), and a Rev. 3+ pump might be a possible solution and thus make this a non-issue going forward but for those that want a HPFP to last 250k+ miles. But one could replace their original pump when doing the TB at 120k miles with the latest pump or simply continue to drive on their original pump knowing that it is less likely with a software update that they will suffer an $8k repair if their pump fails.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
The only pic of a failed unit I've seen it appeared that is was the roller that failed. Now maybe the bore had failed also. It sure would be nice to be able to see a few more failed pumps.
The roller fails because it gets fouled with aluminum particles from a premature wearing bore. Failed rollers are the ''result of'' and not the ''cause of'' a hpfp failure.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Just think about it. Metal particles from the bore foul the piston or roller and that makes more metal. If the piston becomes momentarily jammed (stopped) within the bore it looses contact with the cam. This is what allows the piston to turn (sometimes) and cause the damage you have seen.This damage is not the case in all failures. Sometime the piston stays orientated in the correct direction,but the roller still gets ground flat because its fouled with metal and cannot rotate. Some failed hpfps I've disassembled look new and undamaged,but flushing them with clean fuel reveals fine aluminum particles from a wearing bore.
 

scdevon

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
TDI
None
Yes but the steel? piston has to gall the aluminum bore in the first place assuming that's the root cause of the failures. An adequate aftermarket antifriction coating applied to the piston would prevent galling in the first place. (This is more than likely the "revisions" that Bosch has done to the pumps anyway).
 
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Absolute Diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2010
Location
USA
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG (SOLD)
Replacing every CR TDI pump with a good one is probably cost prohibitive as others have stated. how about just give us a 300K warranty on a pump failure for the few of us that will have them? It's the $8000 bill I'm afraid of, not breaking down once or twice over several hundred thousand miles.
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
Yes but the steel? piston has to gall the aluminum bore in the first place assuming that's the root cause of the failures. An adequate aftermarket antifriction coating applied to the piston would prevent galling in the first place. (This is more than likely the "revisions" that Bosch has done to the pumps anyway).
maybe.
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Just think about it. Metal particles from the bore foul the piston or roller and that makes more metal. If the piston becomes momentarily jammed (stopped) within the bore it looses contact with the cam. This is what allows the piston to turn (sometimes) and cause the damage you have seen.This damage is not the case in all failures. Sometime the piston stays orientated in the correct direction,but the roller still gets ground flat because its fouled with metal and cannot rotate. Some failed hpfps I've disassembled look new and undamaged,but flushing them with clean fuel reveals fine aluminum particles from a wearing bore.
I understand how it could happen that way.
 

Ski in NC

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Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Location
Wilmington, NC USA
TDI
2001 Jetta ALH 5sp stock
If the thing was plumbed so the supply to the pumping chamber came directly from the clean side of the filter, and not from the cam chamber where the wear might occur, the failure would be isolated to the pump itself. Send the cam chamber return flow to dirty side of filter or its own filter. That is the fix. A 1% chance of a pump failure is a risk I will take. Keep the damage isolated.
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
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Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
We really won't know what revisions have been made until someone gets inside of an 11'/12 hpfp or the hpfp on the 2012 Passat. Or if the NHSTA Investigation reveals this info.
You've been dealing with this far longer than me. I just like to see things with my own eyes. :D
 

scdevon

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Jan 19, 2011
Location
USA
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None
Dweisel has a good grip on how these pumps fail.

First, there are momentary seizures between the piston and the aluminum bore. When this happens, the piston roller loses clockwise / counterclockwise orientation with the cam lobe. The piston roller slams back into contact with the cam lobe in an out of orientation position with 1/10th the contact area that it's designed to have resulting in microscopic flat spots on the roller and cam.

Second, the aluminum that is galled off of the cylinder bore migrates to the pump's crankcase where it comes between the cam and roller resulting in small hot spots from metal to metal contact with no film of lubrication.

The rest is a slippery slope of metal to metal contact which ultimately results in shredded pump internals. If you gall the internals of this pump even once, it's GAME OVER. It's just a question of how soon.

Like someone said. "Lubricity, lubricity, lubricity".
 

dweisel

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 28, 2006
Location
Wheeling, West Virginia
TDI
dweisel isn't diesel anymore!
You've been dealing with this far longer than me. I just like to see things with my own eyes. :D
Hopefully we will eventually know more about the failures.It may take awhile IF the NHTSA doesn't throw us any information.

Next failed pump I get to take apart you can see one with your own eyes. We're not that far away from each other.
 

Claudio

Veteran Member
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Oct 30, 2009
Location
IL
TDI
09 Jetta SW
dweisel was using religiously additive (PS?) and B5, and had two failure...lubricity is not the definitive answer (but it does help a lot)
 

pknopp

Veteran Member
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Nov 29, 2011
Location
WV
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagen
Hopefully we will eventually know more about the failures.It may take awhile IF the NHTSA doesn't throw us any information.

Next failed pump I get to take apart you can see one with your own eyes. We're not that far away from each other.
I would like that. Thanks.
 
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