$447 to replace MAF?

Hey all, I've been around here for a long time but not super active over the last few years. I've been pretty happy with my 03 golf, and have been taking it to Zahntech (tdiclub recommended mechanic) for years. There were only 2 recommended mechanics here in Seattle, one was bug aid which was super close to my house and pretty great until a few years back when Brad started hiring more junior mechanics. It seems like he just got over worked and the guys he was hiring just didn't seem to know what they were doing and took forever... so I started going to Zahntech regularly even though it's a bit of a drive for me.
I mentioned to a relative that also happens to be a "car guy" that I'd had to get my mass air flow sensor replaced and he talked about how easy they were to do, so I looked it up and now I'm a bit shocked at how much I was charged.
let me be clear, I feel like zahntech has done a great job, and I'm aware that they aren't "cheap" but I always felt like I was getting good work done so I didn't question it but, after watching a literally 1 minute and 12 second video in which the sensor was easily changed, I'm feeling kind of burned. also, I looked up costs for the sensor and found prices ranging from $25 - $270? but nothing close to the $308 they charged. plus 139.14 in labor?
Do I need to try to find a new mechanic?

It is what it is. You need to check for the things you can easily do yourself instead of paying someone else. Part of the price of having an older car. Service costs can easily exceed the value of the car at times. IDParts has the MAF for $70 to $120 plus $13 for the special bits needed to replace them. You have to be handy unless you want to pay quite a bit more for someone else to do your maintenance for you. Between the web site here, myturbodiesel and youtube you should be able to handle some of these things yourself. Maybe go back to your first place and ask that only the experienced guys work on your car or one in particular if possible. But again the real savings if you are a little bit handy is to do as much as you can yourself when possible. You and your car will be the better for it more than likely.

You are not giving the whole story here.

You likely paid for the diagnosis, which can include, among other things, the stored experience of the technicians/shop to bring a timely and accurate resolution to your problem as well as the use of some equipment that you may not likely have.

Any monkey can replace a MAF on that car. It just takes a spring clamp tool, pliers will get the job done, a Phillips screwdriver, and about 5 minutes. But arriving at that point can take more gray matter and much more time.

Be thankful that Zahntech actually took the time to properly diagnose your problem. Like many shops do they could have just arbitrarily picked a part under your hood and replaced it with a garbage Chinese part. Without proper diagnosis, there is no way of knowing what is actually wrong with your car. If you think you were overcharged, you should talk to Zahntech, not us.

A common misconception is that if you have a fault code, you pull the DTC's (fault codes) and just replace the parts named in the DTC's. That is so far from the truth. When you have fault codes set, what that means is you have to troubleshoot as to why the ECU set the fault code. Something as simple as a flaky ground could set several fault codes.

It really great that they didn't replace a wheel barrow full of parts chasing your drivability problem.

The question now is did they diagnose and replace or did you take it in and ask them to replace that? There are times where I have already diagnosed my issue and just need the work performed. I have been allowed to furnish my own parts at some places I do business with and they just provide the labor. They provide no guarantee of the parts I furnish. But I trust them and they do quality work and I furnish OEM parts.

That would be one very expensive diagnosis. I would say 3 hours to diagnose a bad MAF isn't very experienced. The Bosch part is $120. That leaves $327 for diagnosis and 5 minutes of labor. But I don't fault the garage as the customer should be discussing the cost and such before hand and ultimately has to approve it before the work is done. 20/20 hindsight is only a learning tool for the future. You have to establish a relationship and be clear as to what is going on. You don't usually get quality work and a cheap price and just because you pay a lot doesn't mean they do good work.

Here it sounds like they gouged you on the cost of the part itself. Markup is common but triple the cost or more is kind of ridiculous. The $139 labor is about right I would think for diagnosis and replacement.

Everybody is probably being gouged out of necessity to cover the cost of living and doing business in Seattle.

Probably just bought the part from the dealer. Typical markup would account for the total.

Again, not getting the whole story.


FWIW, the current list price of a genuine Volkswagen MAF for the ALH is $293.33

The published labor time to replace it is .5 hr.

The diagnostic process to arrive at this is anyone'es guess, but most shops charge a flat driveability diagnostic fee which could vary from .5 hr to 1 hr.

So, speculation here, the OP actually had no idea his car needed a MAF. Chances are, the only thing he knew was an MIL was on, and perhaps there was a symptom of loss of power or whatever.

At our shop, the MIL diagnostics would start at 1 hr. We are $125/hr. If I arrived at the conclusion that a MAF was the cause, and we installed a genuine new Volkswagen MAF, it would be:

$125+

$293+

$62=

$480

Now, here, I would have argued for less labor time, and probably just placed it at an even hour total. And we would have almost certainly used a genuine Bosch or maybe a Pierburg unit from a wholesaler, so that would have reduced the part cost considerably. But still, it would not have been free, and it would not have competed with some Autozone part installed in the parking lot as a shotgun approach to fixing a problem.

I guarantee almost any able bodied human with reasonably decent eyesight and dexterity could find and point out a cavity as a source of a toothache, and could probably fill it as well. But we still have dentists thankfully.

As an aside, I am certain the cost of living in Seattle is nearing the nose bleed section, which likely pushes costs of everything up. But this is a broader complaint I have with threads like this being posted: without an ITEMIZED report of what the actual work order entailed, the three "C's", complaint ---> cause ---> correction, it is just a speculative pile of worthlessness to give any grounded armchair opinion and yet that is all we can offer.

OH, that's an awesome dissertation. It does seem like the OP did get his money's worth. A shop that actually did some diagnostics and understands the system is so rare these days. I just wish my car had more problems than it does so I could give the great folks at Zahntech more of my business.

When my car wouldn't pass emissions, Matt turned me on to a trick that made the opacity reading for the emission test 1/10th of the max allowed readings. I passed emission testing with flying colors. The snap test that the emission testing used to do is just so bogus. Thankfully, any Diesel in my state does not have to do emission testing anymore if it is under 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight.

I appreciate the responses everyone. I hope I didn't give the wrong impression. I'm not trying to bad mouth Zahntech, like I said, I've been going there for years and always been happy with the work they've done. And yeah, Seattle is an expensive town. I've spent the last two years changing careers from audio production to web development just to afford staying in Seattle. Probably would have to move if it weren't for the fact that my wife and I bought our house in 2010 before the market recovery.
I feel like I'm hearing most of you say it doesn't seem like an outrageous price.
I had the car in the shop a few months ago for regular maintenance and they found I needed a new fuel pump. I don't have another car and am a ways away from the shop so they rushed the fix for me and got it done that same day but left out some of the reg maintenance that was scheduled and also accidentally charged me for some wipers they didn't put on. wasn't a big deal and I was happy they could get it done quickly. I was planning to come back for the rest when I had time. With the other issue I thought the car might be going into limp mode (I'd experienced that once before a few years ago, don't remember why). I called them and detailed what was happening and they agreed it was likely going into limp mode for some reason. So that's the back story.
Honestly I wouldn't be questioning it at all if I hand't looked up that video.
between the 40k service, the MAF and the fuel pump (plus some smaller things: turn signal assembly, brake light bulb, key fob battery) I'm at: $2,996.41
truly truly, I'd like to keep going there... just can't afford to be taken advantage of. I'm just looking for some knowledgable third party eyes

Lightflyer1 said:

That would be one very expensive diagnosis. I would say 3 hours to diagnose a bad MAF isn't very experienced. The Bosch part is $120. That leaves $327 for diagnosis and 5 minutes of labor.

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That's too funny. Why do people underestimate how long something takes? A MAF is pretty easy to change. But still 5 minutes? I guess if you just changed it and slammed the hood, but you would still have to verify that the problem is actually is fixed. .5 hour would be more reasonably start to finish once the MAF is known to be bad.

Ol'Rattler said:

That's too funny. Why do people underestimate how long something takes? A MAF is pretty easy to change. But still 5 minutes? I guess if you just changed it and slammed the hood, but you would still have to verify that the problem is actually is fixed. .5 hour would be more reasonably start to finish once the MAF is known to be bad.

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You are arguing with oilhammer here and not me. He said it.

oilhammer said:

Any monkey can replace a MAF on that car. It just takes a spring clamp tool, pliers will get the job done, a Phillips screwdriver, and about 5 minutes.

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In my post I said $139 for labor and trouble shooting sounded about right, so slightly more than an hour. Don't know what your beef is with me. I didn't underestimate anything. I even said he probably paid full dealer price for the part. I also said it is the OP's fault as he had to approve everything before hand and didn't research first. Had he done that he could have requested they order the part in from IDParts or somewhere much cheaper than the dealer for the same exact part. Don't complain after the fact when you approved everything beforehand.

More so a general observation on how long folks underestimate how long a process takes. I quoted you but going back I see that the esteemed OH is guilty as well.

More about human nature, really. Back in the day, we were doing a maintenance check on a heavy aircraft and the customer stipulated that any jobs that were above and beyond the scope of the maintenance check had to have the estimated hours for rework submitted by the person doing the job. In that case, almost all of the estimates were low by about 50%.

I have been guilty of that as well. You quote 1/2 hour and 2 hours later you are still working the job. We lost our ass on that maintenance check. Not really a reflection on anybody. Just an observation on human nature.

This is all about approval. If you are going to be off your quote by a significant amount, call the customer and get approval first, or be prepared to eat it.

But this thread is about someone who approved the work and was more than likely given a good estimate of the costs (dealer sourced part/labor) and then had buyers remorse when he found the part could be had cheaper and it wasn't difficult to change out the part itself.

The only thing I "might" fault Zahntech with is not buying the part from a cheaper source and keeping one on hand. They are on the trusted mechanics list for tdi's after all and I would consider them keeping a few parts on hand instead of sourcing them from the dealer at the highest cost. This assuming they actually do much tdi work on these models.

Yes, it would be nice to be able to keep a bunch of stuff in stock, but it isn't realistic most of the time. We (shops) depend on wholesalers to carry that burden, and rely on a just in time type of delivery or pickup. Which, in most major metro areas, is not an issue for most things. And in many cases, even if it is not local, we can get it the next day.

Obviously, if you are hyperfocused on a small segment of the market, be it a specific brand or brands, and you are a high enough volume and you can stomach a pile of merchandise sitting on a shelf that you've paid for, you can make this work more easily.

Our shop has replaced more Ford Transit transmissions in the last couple months than I have sold Bosch MAFs on ANYTHING in the last year.

Not a bunch, but a few different parts you have one of each. Its not like you would have thousands tied up in what I am talking about. They could also give their customer the option of Next Day Air the cheaper part in vs paying nearly 3 times the cost for the local dealer part. But the OP could have asked about doing this as well, is there a cheaper option for the part. Having been told what the issue was I would have even tried the spray MAF cleaner for a temp fix until the new part arrived. $10. Then had them install that or done it myself.

It pays to think before acting. My daughter just called today. Had her car at the dealer for accident repair estimate and they found a nail in a tire and that the tires needed replacing. Wanted to charge typical dealer higher prices for a new set. She called me and asked what she should do. I told her to tell them to put a plug in the one with a nail and we went online and ordered a new set of Goodyear Assurance Maxlife and had them delivered to a local installer in 2 days. Much, much cheaper than letting the dealer do what they wanted and a better tire choice as well. Saved over $400. You have to make good choices if you want to save some money.

When I was rebuilding my 2003 Beetle I needed new door cards. They were outrageously expensive but I shopped around online and found them from an online dealer (Jim Ellis I think) where they were at least much cheaper than others were.

Lightflyer1 said:

The only thing I "might" fault Zahntech with is not buying the part from a cheaper source and keeping one on hand. They are on the trusted mechanics list for tdi's after all and I would consider them keeping a few parts on hand instead of sourcing them from the dealer at the highest cost. This assuming they actually do much tdi work on these models.

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So they should stock MAF's for every model of European car they work on? When they retire in say 20 years, what do they do with the MAF's that never sold?

TDI's are not the only European cars they work on. They did not necessarily get the MAF from a dealer. They most likely got a genuine OEM quality part from one of their trusted distributors. I guess they could have gone down to AutoBone and got a cheapo Chinese garbage part.

The ball joint they got to replace my bent factory ball joint was a made by Lemforder which is a suppler to Volkswagen's factories.

Ol'Rattler said:

So they should stock MAF's for every model of European car they work on? When they retire in say 20 years, what do they do with the MAF's that never sold?

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Yep you got that one right!!!

Lightflyer1 said:

Not a bunch, but a few different parts you have one of each. Its not like you would have thousands tied up in what I am talking about..

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Yes, you would. Our shop did thousands of dollars in parts just yesterday. We had probably 20 parts deliveries over the course of the day, from probably a dozen different vendors. We'd have to have another building just to keep everything in. The tires alone would bury us.

I service a boat load of Sprinters. Do you know what parts I "stock" for them? Oil and oil filters, and fluids for top up. That's it. Because I know I can get most any normal service item I need (yesterday it was front and rear brakes, pads/rotors/sensors on one, air, fuel, cabin filters on another, two sets of tires on a couple more).

I also installed renozzled injectors in an ALH, an alternator on a CJAA, a battery in an F150 (we DID have that in stock, because an H6 is a very common size), and a poor idle diagnosis on an Avalon, which was a gunked up idle control valve.

That was just me. There are four other techs. Plus our tire/alignment guy.

Ask a VW dealer sometime what they have in stock. Generally a few filters and fluids. That's it. We ran low on coolant recently and asked our local dealer to deliver some G13, used in just about every VW. They didn't have any.

We're focused on one tiny segment of the automotive market, and the value of our inventory is pretty overwhelming. No way a repair shop that works on multiple brands and engines can have an array of parts available for whatever comes in the door. And in any reasonably sized metro area there's a network of jobbers that fill that need. The dealer is far from the only option for getting a part quickly. In fact they probably aren't the fastest option, either.

Lightflyer1, for future reference, I've had good luck with having tire retailers match Tire Rack's prices. Simply print out the quote from Tire Rack and they'll match it. Now that Tire Rack delivers free it's still sometimes cheaper to use them instead of paying local taxes, but that varies.

I remember when things like oil filters were very simple. If your car or truck wore a blue oval, chances are it was one of three filters. Now there are over twice that number. Toyotas had basically three different ones, now there are a half dozen or so. We used to be able to keep maybe a total of 20 part numbers for oil filters on our shelf that would cover 90% of every car or truck that came through our doors. We currently have about 65 part numbers. Just oil filters.

Oil, used to be we had a couple types in bulk, with a couple more in jugs for more specialized types. Now, we have about eight different motor oils.

ATF: used to be Dexron/Mercon II was used in everything except Hondas. Now, we have probably 15 different ATFs (VAG products alone could use one of a half dozen different ATFs!).

Tires are such that there are no SO MANY different sizes, types, loads, speeds, brands, that we can barely keep just the common tires we use for fleets on the shelf.

The sheer diversity of the automotive world makes it unrealistic for a shop to keep much of anything on the shelf unless it is a high enough volume (as in, an almost daily need). Otherwise, it is just piles of money sitting on shelves not earning you anything.

Just one example: a second gen Sprinter with the V6 (one of two engines offered) will have one of three possible fuel filters. Not interchangeable because of the attachment points. And can't be identified by VIN. That's just one part in one engine in one vehicle. You get the idea.

Actually there were three engines available in the 906 NV3 Sprinters.

3.0L diesel V6

3.5L gas V6

2.1L diesel 4cyl

Not that anyone cares about the gasser....

I certainly don't. Which is why I didn't include it.

Okay, okay don't stock any parts. This is where it pays to know about your car. Get the estimate and explanation for what the problem is and how much it will cost. Research and learn about it online and then pull it out of the garage and do it yourself if you can. Or leave it there as the OP did and approve them doing the work at full retail price. There is a cost of not knowing things and this case proves it. Installing the part himself would have saved at least $200 depending on which MAF part he bought. Reading here and troubleshooting it himself and buying the part would have saved even more. But if you have zero knowledge and no mechanical ability then you pay whatever it takes.

This kind of scenario is why I have advised newbies wanting one of these cars to not get one if they have no knowledge or mechanical ability and aren't willing to learn, or willing to pay. They just aren't economical if you have to pay for all the catch up, regular service and issues that come up during ownership. The lack of mechanics with the knowledge of these cars (engines) makes it especially hard on them.

Just for ****s and giggles I est that MAF repair - $425.15 + tax to REPAIR. Our diagnosis fee is $119 + tax. Tax rate in Nashville is almost 10%.

So napkin math has a total of $594.48 for that job.

I think that is reasonable for a business, that has overhead and employees to pay.

Jason

BTW - our inventory is several million $$$ and we still have to order a decent amount of parts.

No one is arguing that that isn't a reasonable price for the way the way it has been said businesses are run. Just that the part could be obtained way cheaper using a slightly different business model if that worked. There are some things that could have been done both on the repair shop side as well as the OP's side that would greatly have reduced the costs. But as I said the OP approved what was estimated to him at the time so 20/20 hindsight has no business now after the fact other than a learning tool.

1. Learn about your car and how to research and troubleshoot issues.
2. Research where to get parts (OEM) cheaper than the dealer or jobber.
3. Learn to do some mechanic work yourself and know your boundaries.
4. Even if you don't do your own work it will let you communicate and make decisions better to know more.

First you have to remember that not all people have the mechanical aptitude to work on their own cars. What gives me night meres is the thought of buying a high mileage car that was owner maintained. Not saying there are not extremely competent car owners, of course there are. Its those folks with a high incompetence level that will lie to you about the actual condition of the car.

Generally though, I agree with you advice. If you don't have a very good understanding about mechanical things there are many shops that will totally rape your wallet. Finding a competent shop that is also honest is golden me thinks.

Mechanical aptitude is only knowledge and experience, which can be learned by anyone if you want to. Buying an old car is semi frightening no matter what, as only so much can be inspected. Even getting inspected by a professional doesn't guarantee something major won't happen soon. You pay your money and take your chances. Knowledge only reduces the chance of you buying a dud as the obvious ones can be weeded out.

I have never said anything about honesty or raping your wallet. What Zahntech did was neither of these. They delivered services and parts and fixed the issue to the customers satisfaction. His later unhappiness with the cost is unfounded and his own responsibility.

Knowledge is power. Communicate and research what you want or need done before agreeing to the work or taking it in. A good shop will appreciate this as they aren't just dealing with a know nothing. I believe most shops are honest and trying to do a good job. There are some though who will try and take you for what they can.

Keep in mind that (a) shops usually make a profit, although perhaps only a small one, on the parts they provide; and (b) most good shops warranty the part and their work. If the MAF fails next week the shop would re-diagnose and replace it, if faulty, at no charge to the customer. Most shops won't do that if the customer supplies the parts or insists on parts from a vendor different than what the shop would choose.

Occasionally we have customers get into a bind when they purchase from us and provide the shop with parts for a repair. If the part doesn't work properly the shop won't diagnose and repair for free, they blame the part. And the customer has no way of telling (nor do we) if it's a part failure or a poor repair. Expensive for everyone.