cummins nozzles in tdi

Can this be done? I've seen some discussion of it, but no yes or no if it's possible. Looking at different options. looking at 12v VE nozzles

v8 coupe said:

Can this be done? I've seen some discussion of it, but no yes or no if it's possible. Looking at different options. looking at 12v VE nozzles

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It's not 'bolt on'. The needle end is different, and spray angle is also tighter that our 150*.

Glad to see I'm not the only one interested in this I got a set of Trinity 12x12"s sitting on a shelf for an experiment one day down the road.......

been looking at options other then massive 5- holes. Thinking about something in the 7-10 hole range. found a place that has 10 with 5 by .012 and .008, but can make others.

Angles dont usually work...sizes are poor. It takes a few tries to get the right size...but still the angles are wrong. As far as big holes, cant fill the nozzles fast enough with many of them.....

If you have too many holes, jet-to-jet interaction will result in lots of smoke and HC and probably burned pistons too. There is an optimal number based on bowl and spray geometries, as well as degree of swirl.

persay u could manipulate it to were the injectors actually worked.. this should drastically incease the amount of fuel capable to be used..providing the pump is there... right?

145 degree 7 holes? would these work? 5 degrees tighter seems to not be very much to me.

Equally spaced and standard cone shape.

TDIMeister said:

If you have too many holes, jet-to-jet interaction will result in lots of smoke and HC and probably burned pistons too. There is an optimal number based on bowl and spray geometries, as well as degree of swirl.

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That is not true. If the holes are in correct angle there are no problems. I'm running 8-hole cummins nozzles on my tdi like 3 years soon ... thats about 90000km now.

Re-engineering the wheel again ? There are a tdi specific nozzles out there that can flow enough fuel for over 350hp.

scott_dewitt said:

re-engineering the wheel again ? There are a tdi specific nozzles out there that can flow enough fuel for over 350hp.

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+1

Scott_DeWitt said:

Re-engineering the wheel again ? There are a tdi specific nozzles out there that can flow enough fuel for over 350hp.

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Are there? Haven't seen any.

350 is good and all...but what is stopping us from going for more?

that is the question that has plagued me for a while.

DubNation said:

350 is good and all...but what is stopping us from going for more?
that is the question that has plagued me for a while.

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Show me the people who need more fuel than is available from current offerings?

Scott_DeWitt said:

Re-engineering the wheel again ?

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Yup.

I have access to the largest TDI nozzles available, I told Sean that once he actually has a car that is ready for them, I will set them up.

If you drive your quattro caddy project car to my house Sean, inside the next year, I'll even do free injector set up.

I've been running 5 x 17 cummins 12 valve nozzles for many years.This was not too good as we hacked it together to disable the 2nd stage spring.Reciently we have put some other injector guts into the TDI body to make it a true single stage setup and this also matches up prefectly with the cummins 12v nozzle pin.There wasn't too much difference in spray angle for us to be worried about and the nozzle orientation was correct or close enough as well.

Other than being able to convert to a single stage spring setup there won't any benefit in using the 12 valve nozzles.I'm not sure if a single stage injector is really any benifit only that its aparently better than the 2 stage system.

The 5 x .017" nozzles are .432 according to V8 couple who did the math.

I'm assuming that custom TDI nozzles can be made this big.

Below is a link to the nozzles I'm using

http://injectorparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=47

You can make standard TDI nozzles and bodies single stage.

DubNation said:

350 is good and all...but what is stopping us from going for more?
that is the question that has plagued me for a while.

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I offered and no one really seemed interested. I can have high quality nozzles made in any size wanted all the way up to (and probably over) .025" holes. The company making them laughs that the biggest I've ordered form them is the .013", they're used to making .020+" sets for drag/sled guys.

whitbread, what kind of fuel modifications whould have to be done to support that size nozzles!? i would asume that a PD lift pump, 12mm IP would have a hard time keeping up with that kind of fuel demand. beyond that, it woul have to be a compound build to keep it as smoke free as possable, no?

My engine is ready to go. Car is coming along. I want one set of injectors for a single 2256v, but will later be upping to the compound.

Probably just go with .014" from Matt. Wonder where to set pop? Be interested to see how they work with the pump. we know .012" would need more fuel, especially with my lack of a 12mm head.

I still don't understand how a 7 hole 145 degree nozzle is different then a 5 hole 145 degree nozzle. As long as the angle keeps the fuel in the bowl I don't see any difference.

offset angle? Or spray angle?

the spray angle of most of the cummins nozzles I was looking at were 145 degrees ours are 150 degrees. From all the info I have there is no offset to them just straight cone of fuel. Which is why I don't understand why the 7 holes if setup correctly won't work.

As far as I can tell the basics of nozzles in high boost applications is this. Smaller holes are going to light off quicker then larger holes. The larger holes will get deeper into the cylinder/bowl resulting in more fuel air interaction. So it's a balancing act between small holes for better low end and larger holes for HP.

Now having said that there are a few things that can change/effect this. First being pump size, a bigger pump will make more pressure sooner, a smaller one might have a delay to make the same pressure. Another is injector setup. From what I've gathered from reading the 7 holes are typically setup to pop higher then an equally sized 5 hole. This means that when it does open it would have higher pressure pushing the volume out. Now I'm no TDI injector guru so I might be way off on this but to me a correct nozzle is going to be the one that gets the best combo of atmozation and overall fueling.

I love how everyone is like run what works/is known. How are you going to find new limits and things that work if you don't try different stuff. For now I'll try some monster 5's, but I will be keeping my ones out for a set of 7 holes on sale to try at some point. I think there would be an interesting dyno test. do 3 pulls on each, compare torque and power curves.

So for now I think it's been decided that there isn't enough evidence to spend the money to try this. At some point there might be, but right now the need for more fuel doesn't out way the cost. I hope some time to try it, if purely to prove that I was wrong and have the evidence to end the conversation.

Well in some cases cummins nozzles are only way to go when upgrading tdi for more power. There are no nozzles available for my tdi. 8-hole nozzles out from 03-04 cr isbe is way to go 280+hp. Spray angle is close enough compared to stock 142 vs. 143.

diffas said:

Well in some cases cummins nozzles are only way to go when upgrading tdi for more power. There are no nozzles available for my tdi. 8-hole nozzles out from 03-04 cr isbe is way to go 280+hp. Spray angle is close enough compared to stock 142 vs. 143.

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I don't think that the 7 holes CR Cummins will work in our TDI, yes, the nozzle looks the same ( I have a set here ), but because the injector of the CR is just above the piston bowl and the TDI injector is angled, the entire spray of the CR nozzle won't reach the bowl.

RedRotors said:

I don't think that the 7 holes CR Cummins will work in our TDI, yes, the nozzle looks the same ( I have a set here ), but because the injector of the CR is just above the piston bowl and the TDI injector is angled, the entire spray of the CR nozzle won't reach the bowl.

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Well the I don't know about 7-hole nozzles. My TDI injector is center of the piston and the bowl so only thing that I'm worried is spray angle is one degree wider than in stock nozzle. It should be less than 142 degrees. Narrow angle allows more advance. Only upgrade nozzle that is available that I know.

I think he's referencing the offset bowl 4 cylinder TDI.

DubNation said:

350 is good and all...but what is stopping us from going for more?

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Connecting rods
Wives
Bank account balances
Children and college funds
engine blocks
pistons
Wallet
cylinder heads

diffas said:

Well in some cases cummins nozzles are only way to go when upgrading tdi for more power. There are no nozzles available for my tdi. 8-hole nozzles out from 03-04 cr isbe is way to go 280+hp. Spray angle is close enough compared to stock 142 vs. 143.

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could I use all Nozzles for the v6 tdi from 03-04 Cummins 24v?
wich are the best for 300PS?
you could also use Firad +25%, +50% or +75%
I drive the +50% in my AKE with 230hp and original Turbo, but I want more

Not sure if those cummins nozzles are good for 300hp because of the pump limits. Atleast 280 is doable.

my +50% are good for 270+hp, too.
would this fit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/180HP-Bosch...Parts_Accessories&hash=item45f616dac5&vxp=mtr

wich clutch and Flywheel can handle with 450+++ Nm?