Car won't start troubleshooting

Radu, that is highly interesting!
The green CTS is considered to be an improved version of the device.
However, that's not really the culprit.
We know now that the problem as you've described is basically a pre-glow issue.
There's a way to modify the pre-glow parameters, adaptation settings in VCDS (VAG-COM)

I'm not an expert in that, but i can post back later w/ a topic link (am on mobile now)
Thx; larry

Larry,
I am watching with interest. I was under the impression that the glow plug adaptation was not possible for PD's.
Dukku's PD is different than mine, but it appears that he has some of the same measuring blocks; I suspect that he has the same adaptation limits as on North American PDs.
Dan

I have extended the pre-glow time in december . I think that was on engine group , channel 12 , the default value was 32768 and i set it to 32700 then test it and save it.
I have also set the vag-com to output test mode and tested the glow-plug relay and I pulled one glow's conector and I have measured the presence of electricity betwen the wire and ground chassis.
I think this is because the cam-lifters I changed. Will post on youtube a video shot while engine were runing in the first seconds after starting in the morning , I hear a rythmic noise like "tac..tac...tac." for 10-15 sec.

Radu, I noticed these chaps (also with PD engines) were asking similar questions (and looking at glow period), see here -- http://uk-mkivs.net/forums/p/232096/1519329.aspx#1519329

I shouldn't say that the glow is "the problem" in your car; but I think that we're finding your start-up difficulty (at -5 or -10 deg C) to be "sensitive" to glow period. Good luck ... Larry.

These days the temperature was betwen 0 and 7 degrees celsius. Even at 7 degrees in the morning I got blue smoke and variable idle speed for few seconds. At +1 degrees I cranked for 3-4 secconds .
OffTopic:
I bought a new tandem pump and I want to replace the old one(hope to find a tutorial somewhere) and another camplifter set (maybe the last ones i used wasn't good). Does anybody have a tutorial regading these 2 problems? I found only this :
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=201634&highlight=camshaft+replacing
I hope to get a better startup .

Dukku, the car is starting now, it just has problems once running, correct? Maybe you could start another thread about hose problems? That would probably get some more people looking at your situation.

02 TDi Starting Problems

Hello Everyone,

I was contemplating starting my own thread but after seeing the invite to reply in an earlier post, I will just post here.

I took my 02 TDi out yesterday evening, came home and parked it in the garage as normal. This morning as I'm heading out to run errands, I hop in turn the key to run (no glow time due to warm garage), everything lights up and beeps as normal but when I turn the key to start I got nothing. This is the first time this has occurred so I tried again and with the same results. Immediately I start to troubleshoot. I checked the battery voltage (12.6) and turned the key to to run with the door open and hood up listening for relays. Everything sounded relatively normal as far as my untrained ear can tell.

So naturally the next step I take is to search this forum. I came upon this thread and attempted everything in step 4 except tracing through the wiring. I do know that my starter/solenoid is good because I made a switchable jumper to test it. I also tried this with the key in the run position and it fired right up. I checked the control wire going to the solenoid and it saw 12.6 V when I held the key in the start position so long as I had the clutch pedal to the floor.

This leads me to believe that my CPP switch is good, the starter is good (it started with the jumper), and that the ECM is getting power as well (also because it ran).

I am at a loss right now because I don't know what else could be causing this issue. If anything that I wrote doesn't make sense please let me know and I'll do my best to clear it up. Any help will be greatly appreciated; thank you in advance!

Alex

The gp light comes on for a moment? Not that a 109 would cause this.

You did not have any turning of the engine initially, right? You did get it to start with the jumper to the solenoid. I'd review the connections and wire going to the solenoid.

Yes, the GP light comes on for a short amount of time and then flicks off. It's near 60 in the garage right now.

Thank you for the quick replies. You are correct that the engine did NOT turn over initially. Only with the jump wire to the solenoid did I get that to happen.

Wouldn't the car starting with a jump to the solenoid show that the high power connections are OK? I did check the small control wire with my multi-meter; it showed 12.6 V as long as the clutch was depressed. With that kind of voltage why wouldn't it act the same as when the jump wire was attached and activate the starter? That is what has me perplexed.

An intermittent problem like this is troublesome to nail down.

Did the solenoid hang up?

Did the switch not work several times in a row, and then start working?

Probably one or the other.

You might not find out for a while.

If it happens again, try to check the voltage at the solenoid before doing anything else. If you can find the voltage good, but no response from the solenoid, then you know where the problem is.

Keep your test start switch and something to tap on the solenoid with in the car at all times, until you find it.

Good luck.

Dan

So right now, it won't start with the key switch everytime?

I believe that I have narrowed down the problem to the anti-theft starter lock relay in position 3 on the relay panel. I pulled off the steering column lower trim and put my hand on the relays while putting the key in the start position. The relay I mentioned made a continuous clicking noise and didn't seem to act as the others. I pulled it out and the 30 and 87 terminals (this is a 4 pin relay numbered 53) had burn marks near their bases. I called the local parts store and it is listed in their system as a dealer only part. It looks like I'll be waiting until Monday to see if my prediction is correct.

To answer the above question, no the car will not start with the ignition switch alone. In order to make it run, I put the key in the run position and then activate the starter solenoid with a switched jumper wire from the positive battery terminal.

I in fact did have the problem narrowed down, but it wasn't the relay that was faulty. Instead it was the connection of the relay into it's connector that was bad. I figured this out after I bought a new relay from autozone; it turns out that they don't carry the anti-theft starter lock relay but they do carry the fog light relay which in my case was the same per the Bentley. I installed the new relay and turned the key to the start postion only to have the relay do the same quick on-off almost buzzing as the old one did. Being slightly perturbed I wiggled the relay while still holding the key in the start position and sure enough the car started right up. Given this I reinstalled my old relay and sure enough it started right up with the key. I guess the darkened terminals were no indication of a faulty relay to begin with. Next up is to fix the relay connections so that I don't have to pull my dash apart to get my car to start with the key!

Thank you all for the replies. I hope that what I've discovered can help someone else along the way.

Thank you for taking the time to post the resolution. I will add a link to this post.

Fuel cutoff solenoid (N109) malfunction fault code

My no-start issue (air / loss of prime) was resolved, a couple of months back. But initially, I removed my fuel cutoff solenoid plunger since it seemed to me that it was jammed.

I left the solenoid electrically connected. Now, several weeks later, I notice that I always am getting the Malfunction code for N109, in the Engine control module (01) (scanning via VCDS). I wasn't getting this fault code, some weeks ago (even after plunger removal). I clear the code and it immediately returns. This is while the engine isn't running, but the ignition switch (key) is "on" (though I know that the plunger is supposed to close i.e. de-energize the solenoid, several seconds after you turn the ignition switch on).

What I'm wondering is -- what the heck does this Malfunction code mean? Is the controller sensing the supply voltage (or current) to N109; or is it detecting the flow of fuel somehow (and assigning blame to N109) ??? If the latter, then I'd understand that completely.

I'm troubleshooting my Limp Mode issue (have replaced suspected faulty N75), and thought I'd chase this down at the same time (I don't think that an N109 issue can cause overboost & limp mode though)

Thanks! Larry

Update in "orange"

whitedog said:

4. You turn the key to start and you get some or all of the lights, beeps buzzing or whatever, but no noises coming from the engine compartment.

The basics.

Once you get power to the key switch and to the ECU and accessories, when you turn the key switch to start, you need to get power out to the start solenoid trigger connection.

Troubleshooting.

If you have a NSC and the glow plug light comes on, you need to determine if the solenoid on the starter is clicking. Here is a picture of the top of the starter in an A4 model car.

On the right is the battery box and on the left is a coolant hose. Put your hand on the top of the starter and have an assistant turn the key to start. Do you feel a click? Yes or no?

If yes, you need to make sure that you have a good battery. I won't go into testing the battery and cables, but I will provide a link or two.

***Need to find links or build another post.***

Here is a link to one thread about batteries. I haven't taken the time to read it all the way through, but DBW has some good information in here, thoguh the picture links are dead.

If your battery and connections all test good, then it's time for Wingnut's starter removal post found here.

If no, you will need to do some digging so get out your multimeter (MM) and Bentley wiring diagrams.

Troubleshooting the starting system is very straight forward as long as you have the correct wiring diagram for your car, a MM and some common sense. It’s just a matter of tracing the power from the battery to the starter solenoid as it passes through all of the fuses, switches and relays.

First place to check is the fuse. Get out your owners manual and find the fuse that controls the start circuit. If the fuse is good, you can move on down the line.

The next stop is the signal terminal on the starter itself. This picture shows the connector disconnected from the starter. Tug and pull on the wire and connector to make sure that it isn't coming loose as this has been reported to have happened a few times.

Put your multimeter on this wire turn the key to start, you should get about 12 volts here. If not, safely verify that putting battery power directly to this terminal on the starter will turn the engine over. (Buttons switches are available so that you won't need to be leaning over the car to do this. I highly recommend this method, but it can be done safely without it)

If you aren’t getting power to the solenoid when you turn the key to start, you need to find out why.

If you have a manual transmission, there is a switch on the clutch pedal that needs to close in order for a relay (or possibly two or three - check your wiring diagram) to close in order to get power out to the starter wire. If you have an automatic transmission, you have a switch in the transmission control lever that does the same thing. I won't go into how to test here, but if you have a Bentley manual and lots of patience, you will be able to dig in and follow the flow of power to find where it stops flowing.

One thing to try is to turn the key to start and wiggle it up and down and back and forth and round and round and any other direction you can think of, even back and forth. If it suddenly starts, you have a bad keyswitch. This is often caused by having a bunch of keys hanging on your keychain that pulls on the mechanism of the switch wearing it out.

***If anyone wants to jump in and tackle this troubleshooting in more detail, that would great. Or if you know a good link, let me know.***

The 12 volt wire that is connected to the solenoid on the starter tends to chafe inside the protective plasitc casing and will cut through the wire, then the solenoid will not engage the starter motor. Pull off the connecter and pull the wire out of the plastic protector and inspect/repair as necessary. While your there, have a look at the metal braided wire that connects the negative side of the solenoid to the starter casing. They tend to corrode and break off, may be able to solder back on.

As mentioned, I won't go into how to test this circuit, but another place to check is for power coming out of the key switch. Get your wiring diagram out and find the first place that wire goes to and check for power there. If you don't have power coming out of the key switch, but you have power going into the switch, well guess what? You get to buy a new key switch. As with all testing, don't rely on just one try to verify if something is good or bad; give it a few attempts, removing and replacing MM leads if applicable. There is nothing worse in electrical troubleshooting than replacing a part because you had a finger on each MM lead giving bad readings.

Here is a thread that has some odd information about a blown dome light fuse that appears to have somehow kept the car from starting. This is an example of where I would start looking at grounds because there is no way that the dome light fuse should keep the engine from cranking.

First thing to check is to turn on your headlights and turn the key to start. Do the headlights go off?
If yes, move on to other things. ***Need to point out where to go*** This indicates that
If no, then you need to start at the key switch and move to points downstream from there.
"The earlier 96~99.5 Jetta and Passat had issues with the starter key switch failing." (That is a quote from some else that I forgot to note so they can get credit.)
*** Don’t go by this in blue just yet. I need more help with the specifics of key switch troubleshooting…***

Here is a thread where a guy did a bunch of troubleshooting and ended up replacing his key switch.

Here is a post someone sent me about key switches.

Click to expand...

See update above in "orange" for more info

yetta0 said:

See update above in "orange" for more info

Click to expand...

Added. Thanks.

Coming home from ball practice, stop at the store for a drink. Come out to my car, turn the key... click. Nothing. What the frigging hell.

"Click" as in the key clicks but nothing happens under the hood? Or is the click from something under the hood? Do you have a multimeter to do some electrical checks? What year and model car is this?

whitedog said:

"Click" as in the key clicks but nothing happens under the hood? Or is the click from something under the hood? Do you have a multimeter to do some electrical checks? What year and model car is this?

Click to expand...

Click from the starter, just a single click. And no, the only tool I have in my car is a screwdriver. Which is actually ridiculously handy, just a standard Phillips screwdriver, but it seems to be usefull in just about anything I ever have to do.

Check grounds, check the battery.

Yeah, in the morning. Had my dogs, so I just walked my ass home instead. Hockey game to watch.

How about a year and model of the car?

2001 Jetta TDI

Went to try jumping it this morning, no dice. Ended up pushing it, and jumping it that way, ran fine all the way to work. When I shut off the car, try it again, same deal, single click. Battery not charging enough? Or starter? I'm thinking the latter.

tnt, wow, you were able to push-start it, that must have been a relief.
So, assuming it's a manual xmission.

You'll need to work through these category "4" troubleshooting steps (linked on page #1) -- http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1972354&postcount=5
also available above (21-March post by yetta0).

And, let us know whether the indicator lights on your instrument panel looked more or less "normal", when you turned your key to the On position.

About your screwdriver ... I'd add to my in-car essentials a set of Torx drivers; and an inexpensive multimeter (DMM). And a 10mm socket wrench ... and a small pair of slip-joint pliers, for loosening those springy hose clamps (this is totally essential). Larry

I have been working on wiring diagrams and I wanted to get up the one that I have for now. HERE is a much larger picture in the photo gallery. It's so big I don't want to put it here.



To go along with this picture is THIS list. Please let me know if this is useable.

Ookpic is working on getting the drawings into a legible format with links and circles and arrows and a paragraph with each one telling what each one is about, but until then, I hope that this will help.

Golf died on the road....

...and this thread helped me solve the problem. The car is a 99.5 Golf TDI automatic, and the short list of codes that it threw began with the "Fuel Cutoff Solenoid Open or Shorted...", "Fuel Temp Sensor Ckt Fault", and the ever popular "Glow Plug Ckt Fault".
The fuel system was checked from tank to IP, and the MyTVac pulled fuel clear through the IP and out. Fuel filter was fresh, and the ASV was also checked and found to be open.
10-pin connector on the IP was clean, as was the connection on the Fuel Cutoff Solenoid. Solenoid was removed, checked, reinstalled, and tested - OK.
I am now dreading that the ECU has gone south, and I am not looking forward to trying to mess with it. I then decided to pull the battery & the tray to have a look at the starter motor and the battery cables, and everywhere I go I am 'HOPING' to find a corroded connection.
All the while, I am shuffling back & forth from the garage to the computer, reading and rereading this and about a half dozen other threads on this subject.
As almost a last resort on my way to ECU hell, I trace the wire harness from the 10-pin IP connector back along the front of the engine, over the starter - and through the plastic protective sleeve above the starter solenoid. I removed the well wrapped wire bundle from the sleeve and examine it - and promptly find a spot on the bottom where the wrap, insulation, and at least 6 wires have worn through - one of them completely severed (Fuel Cutoff Solenoid- Black/white tracer). YEAH!
Needless to say, after splicing new wire into the burned & shorted spots (and sealing them with heat shrink tubing), the Golf magically came back to life, and the VagCom showed no more faults.
I must also say that without the excellent pictures on this thread and the site in general, I would still be out in the driveway right now testing components. This one really had me scratching my head.
Thanks so much!!!
George

03 Jetta no start above 40F

When my 03 Jetta is above the no-pre-glow temp, it does not start. If hot (70+C coolant temp), it will start after extended 15-40 second cranking.

Checking timing, I found it in the envelope, but centered it in the middle of the envelope, using the TDI timing tool with VAG-COM.

I'm considering putting the timing at the advanced edge of the envelope, to see if that helps starts where there is no pre-glow.

I continue to drive it, bumping it in the morning, and popping the ECT sensor connector when in spots where a bump is impractical. No other known problems, and fuel economy is very good.

VChristian said:

When my 03 Jetta is above the no-pre-glow temp, it does not start. If hot (70+C coolant temp), it will start after extended 15-40 second cranking.

Checking timing, I found it in the envelope, but centered it in the middle of the envelope, using the TDI timing tool with VAG-COM.

I'm considering putting the timing at the advanced edge of the envelope, to see if that helps starts where there is no pre-glow.

I continue to drive it, bumping it in the morning, and popping the ECT sensor connector when in spots where a bump is impractical. No other known problems, and fuel economy is very good.

Click to expand...

What does the ect say before you start it? Does it have the same temps as the air and fuel temp gauges? If so, do advance the ip and see what that does.

The other possibility is the starter motor is getting weak. Odd, but when warm, it might spin slower, so the extra gp heat overcomes that issue. What are the rpm's when it's turning?