CR140 Stage 3
- Thread starter JFettig
- Start date
JM Popaleetus
Veteran Member
I read through all 20 pages of this thread, and I just wanted to be sure...CR170 Turbo + Stage 3 Malone Tune = Good Times?
The EGR Delete is required unless you machine out the stock Turbo correct? If so, how many "Not Ready" warnings will this cause (CT only allows for one). My goal is to keep the car as street legal as possible to avoid any headaches.
On that note, does the DPF delete even cause a not ready? I'm curious as to how so many people are running them and getting through emissions (feel free to PM me the answer).
As for the best EGR Delete kit...I'm guess Darkside's?
The EGR Delete is required unless you machine out the stock Turbo correct? If so, how many "Not Ready" warnings will this cause (CT only allows for one). My goal is to keep the car as street legal as possible to avoid any headaches.
On that note, does the DPF delete even cause a not ready? I'm curious as to how so many people are running them and getting through emissions (feel free to PM me the answer).
As for the best EGR Delete kit...I'm guess Darkside's?
EGR Delete as well? Ballpark price?
SirSipsAbit
Veteran Member
No need for a race pipe to delete your EGR, just need 3 block off plates and your tune adjusted. The stock EGR valve can stay in place.
Note that I run the darkside egr race pipe....
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
We don't have an EGR delete on the site, but we do have blockoff plates.
JFettig
Vendor
JM, I haven't actually tried to swap things around yet. When the turbo comes off sometime this spring I'll try swapping hot sides to verify that the EGR will run(high pressure).
Option B is euro EGR stuff.
Option B is euro EGR stuff.
JM Popaleetus
Veteran Member
What's the difference between a racepipe and blockoff plates?
And pros/cons of the EGR? Are there any cons other than emissions stuff?
And pros/cons of the EGR? Are there any cons other than emissions stuff?
ibexlatham
Veteran Member
One pro of the EGRs is you actually get heat in winter...
IndigoBlueWagon
TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Jon, do you think the Euro EGR piping would fit the US market cars? We'd like to make a pipe to plumb the EGR to the turbo. Our goal is to offer this turbo with a kit that will keep all emissions intact.
TDI-JAY
Veteran Member
I was actually afraid of that, but my car heats up just like it did before. We have had a cold winter and my car still gets heat 30 seconds after driving, it rules. I have no LP or HP EGR and my airbox is blocked off from the manifold heat riser tube.
BuzzKen
Vendor , w/Business number
^^^^^^^I'm in the same boat and agree. Plus my motor doesn't hydrolock in the morning. Lol.
JFettig
Vendor
lol just wait until you see -20F or more. I cover my grill in the winter and it heats up like normal.
ibexlatham
Veteran Member
Thats the electic heater in the HVAC. I've got the LP and HP EGRs deleted too, in addition to removing the manifold heat riser from the turbo.
I get some heat from the electronic heater but not much. The EGR delete makes it take longer for the engine to warm up, but blocking the grill helps solve that.
Agreed.... when it was -15 this winter the only air going into my radiator was in the space between the V and the W in logo and one slot on the grill...
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Paulinski
Veteran Member
I just plug the car in when its cold. Starts right at 105 deg after being plugged in for a while.
BuzzKen
Vendor , w/Business number
We were consistently around -10F this year, and in comparison, my fully deleted and a friends stock cr/dsg saw the same operating temps.
If I see -20F, I'm moving. Lol.
JM Popaleetus
Veteran Member
I'm not too worried about the warmup times, between a future frostheater, cover, and CT being relatively reasonable...it shouldn't be a problem. So other than that, no real other cons? I was worried about decreased fuel economy, etc. Negatively affecting the environment/emissions is something I will also consider (heres to hoping the Euro EGR works!).
And again, difference between blockoff plates and racepipe?
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....v-tdi-pd-ppd-and-cr-egr-delete-race-pipe.html
And again, difference between blockoff plates and racepipe?
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....v-tdi-pd-ppd-and-cr-egr-delete-race-pipe.html
BuzzKen
Vendor , w/Business number
Any ideas on how to re-plumb the low pressure egr?
bloc
Veteran Member
CR170 + stage 3 = great time. Deceptively quick.. and pulls hard into the upper RPMs.
We should probably clarify some terms.. there are 2 EGR systems on these cars.. Low pressure (LP) and High pressure (HP.)
HP has a pipe that runs from the driver's side of the CR140 exhaust manifold to the EGR valve on the front of the engine. The CR170 turbo outlet for HP EGR is on the passenger's side. This is where people are talking about using the CR140 turbine housing. It would give you HP EGR, but do nothing for LP.
The "hot" part of LP EGR comes off the DPF.. so if you used stock DPF that would work fine. The EGR cooler (used for LP EGR ONLY) can also remain unchanged. The problem comes when the LP EGR is routed back into the intake. On the CR140 turbo there is an aluminum adapter bolted to the inlet of the compressor housing that gathers the LP EGR flow from the cooler, and lets it enter the comp housing from a bunch of slots around the circumference, along with the fresh air flow from the intake pipe/MAF/air filter. The CR170 comp housing is different and though I didn't actually try it, it seems that adapter will not bolt up to the housing.
This is actually a passat BV40E but the comp housing is similar where said adapter bolts up on the CR140
Same story here (not our exact turbo), but the comp housing inlet is exactly the same as a CR170 chunk:
If you could find a way to route LP EGR gasses back to the turbo I don't see a reason LP EGR couldn't remain. You can't just bolt a CR140 comp housing onto the CR170 wheel.. the inducer is 3mm bigger (IIRC) on CR170. Possibility for machining though.. As to HP, either use a CR140 turbine housing/exhaust manifold, or come up with plumbing to run HP EGR from the pass side of the manifold to your EGR valve on the front of the engine (it'd be very tight going around the back.. plus said pipe is gonna be hot) and you will have both EGR circuits functioning as with the CR140 turbo, plus keep your DPF.
The tuners would probably know more about whether you can get away with just one of these circuits working and have readiness codes check out.. That'd simplify things a lot. But, complicating things.. in my rudimentary understanding of the NOx and SOx regen processes, EGR is important. Not sure whether HP or LP.. but..
I don't know much about boost mapping, but I'd have to assume the CR170 and CR140 turbos spool differently, requiring differences in boost control. Plus the DPF would likely change things in ways not seen so far on CR170 swaps. So that would have to be sorted in a stage 3+ DPF tune.. unless malone or a competitor have already done this for someone.
I used Darkside's HP EGR delete. Beautiful chunk of metal, though the groove in it didn't quite leave room for the provided o-ring to seat well.. so I used silicon RTV to seal it to the intake manifold. They know about that and will be working on it. Removing the fabric covered HP EGR pipe that runs from the exhaust manifold to the EGR valve requires a lot of work.. I had to pull the battery tray & airbox, unbolt the IC plumbing above the transmission from it's mount, remove the water outlet on the head, and unbolt the engine hoist hook by the intake manifold. After all of that I could get it out.
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ibexlatham
Veteran Member
Theres no real advantage to one of the other. Block off plates are cheaper but you're left with a pipe going nowhere or a plate on the side of the now useless HP EGR. The LP EGR you can leave on if you want or you can remove the cooler. Installing a CR170 turbo removes the port from the intake stream and removing the DPF disconnects it from the exhaust stream so a block off plate isnt even needed because it isnt connected to anything, however it would be best to just remove the cooler and install a pipe to connect the heater hoses.
installing the race pipe cleans up the intake stream a bit and removes the small restriction of the EGR, if there is a power gain it would be extremely minimal.
Almost everyone here with one has Darkside's kit which works well for its purpose. I went with Allard Motorsports kit (which is basically identical to the Darkside kit, just $10 cheaper)
Allard Motorsports also offers a kit to remove the EGR and the ASV but it is not recommended for a street car.
http://www.allardaluminiumproducts.co.uk/air-systems/egr-delete-kits/volkswagen/golf-mk5-tdi.html
installing the race pipe cleans up the intake stream a bit and removes the small restriction of the EGR, if there is a power gain it would be extremely minimal.
Almost everyone here with one has Darkside's kit which works well for its purpose. I went with Allard Motorsports kit (which is basically identical to the Darkside kit, just $10 cheaper)
Allard Motorsports also offers a kit to remove the EGR and the ASV but it is not recommended for a street car.
http://www.allardaluminiumproducts.co.uk/air-systems/egr-delete-kits/volkswagen/golf-mk5-tdi.html
JFettig
Vendor
one is a plate, one deletes the entire valve.... do whatever you want 
If you want to keep the EGR you can't run a plate or race pipe...
If you want to keep the EGR you can't run a plate or race pipe...
JFettig
Vendor
Answer should be "just don't."
but the real answer is take both compressor covers to a competent machine shop and open up the CR140 compressor cover up to CR170 specs.
bloc
Veteran Member
I've already rid myself of the CR140 turbo and EGR adapter, but IIRC isn't that adapter about the same ID as the comp housing inlet? so you should probably have the adapter opened up as well?
ibexlatham
Veteran Member
If you're really dedicated and want to keep one of the two EGRs I dont see why it wouldnt be possible to convert to the european CBBB style EGR. They use the same EGR that is on the front of the engine, only instead of being fed directly off the manifold it is run through a cooler.
This would probably take some creative programming since the HP EGR would now be a hybrid between the HP and LP EGRs but it would only require adding the cooler replacing the pipes (maybe). I am not sure if there are any electrical connections on the Euro EGR cooler.
Edit: the EGR cooler 03G131512AP might work... might
This would probably take some creative programming since the HP EGR would now be a hybrid between the HP and LP EGRs but it would only require adding the cooler replacing the pipes (maybe). I am not sure if there are any electrical connections on the Euro EGR cooler.
Edit: the EGR cooler 03G131512AP might work... might
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JM Popaleetus
Veteran Member
Finally found a diagram and a clean picture that makes sense to me:
That white wrapped pipe is the HP EGR which is what the race pipe deletes. That comes directly from the exhaust manifold to the intake manifold via a valve on the turbocharger. A racepipe deletes that valve (and includes a block for the manifold on the other side).
And then the other half of the problem comes from the LP system? But I'm assuming blockoff plates on the turbo intake and DPF solves that? The question then becomes whether or not this affects regeneration or the DPF negatively?
That white wrapped pipe is the HP EGR which is what the race pipe deletes. That comes directly from the exhaust manifold to the intake manifold via a valve on the turbocharger. A racepipe deletes that valve (and includes a block for the manifold on the other side).
And then the other half of the problem comes from the LP system? But I'm assuming blockoff plates on the turbo intake and DPF solves that? The question then becomes whether or not this affects regeneration or the DPF negatively?
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bloc
Veteran Member
The LP EGR goes into the adapter on the compressor housing without a flange or anything. It is relatively short and just presses into a circular grommet on that adapter. The lower end of it is bolted firmly to the EGR cooler.
A simple tapered rubber plug can be used to fill the hole in the Comp housing adapter.. but that is only needed if you retain the CR140 turbo. If you are going CR170, you'd only need to cover the small band clamp port downstream of the DPF but before the NOx converter that goes to the EGR filter.
I forget where I read that the EGR is needed for regen.. but it is one logical way for the ECU to control how much oxygen is getting to the catalysts when needed.
And great job digging up those diagrams. Much more clear than my attempt at an explanation.
A simple tapered rubber plug can be used to fill the hole in the Comp housing adapter.. but that is only needed if you retain the CR140 turbo. If you are going CR170, you'd only need to cover the small band clamp port downstream of the DPF but before the NOx converter that goes to the EGR filter.
I forget where I read that the EGR is needed for regen.. but it is one logical way for the ECU to control how much oxygen is getting to the catalysts when needed.
And great job digging up those diagrams. Much more clear than my attempt at an explanation.
engineered2win
Veteran Member
The engine should be running on a no egr map during active regens. The engine is firing the injectors on the exhaust stroke to get fuel to the DPF to heat it up and burn off the soot. If you were using EGR it would be sucking some of that fuel back into the intake and you could potentially have a runaway.
bloc
Veteran Member
Do you know the EGR maps to be flat during all regens to be a fact? Your logic doesn't hold up necessarily for LP EGR. That draws exhaust after the first cat and DPF where fuel should be burned off. Plus.. is that much exhaust heat actually needed for NOx and SOx regen or are those other chemistry? Definitely for DPF regen.. but there are more regens going on than for just that one part.
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ibexlatham
Veteran Member
According to the VW 2.0 TDI SSP the ECU closes the EGRs during an active regen to heat up the DPF to 1000-1200c and provide more oxygen. I believe the DeNOx and DeSOx regens occur independently of an active DPF regen since they all work under different parameters, with DeSOx and DeNOx requring higher EGR flow rates than usual.
Interestingly DeNOx occurs much more frequently, sometimes every 100 miles, DPF regens occur 450-600 miles and DeSox occurs every 1000-1200 miles...
bloc
Veteran Member
Do we know which EGR is used for DeNOx and/or DeSOx?
ibexlatham
Veteran Member
If I read the self study program correctly I think both HP and LP are used for DeSOx and DeNOx... the ECU determines the best combination of both EGRs to use to perform them depending on the input from all the sensors.
TDI-JAY
Veteran Member
Ok, that's just lunacy! I was b!tching about single digit temps and some below zero wind chills. At -20 I wouldn't leave the house, your a better man than I!
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