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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old February 17th, 2017, 10:00   #2581
habsfan
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Just got the recall package for Gen 3 TDI cars in Canada, came via regular mail - says that you can get phase I fix prior to court approval without impacting on your choice for buyback, trade in or fix.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 10:31   #2582
Armby
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Originally Posted by habsfan View Post
Just got the recall package for Gen 3 TDI cars in Canada, came via regular mail - says that you can get phase I fix prior to court approval without impacting on your choice for buyback, trade in or fix.
It doesn't impact your choice as long as you get it done before the claims process formally starts. . If you have this fix done after the claim process has started (late March) then you will no longer be eligible for the buy back (see paragraph 4.7.4.2.of the agreement). I bet some will be trapped by this, so be careful.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 10:58   #2583
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Originally Posted by Armby View Post
It doesn't impact your choice as long as you get it done before the claims process formally starts. . If you have this fix done after the claim process has started (late March) then you will no longer be eligible for the buy back (see paragraph 4.7.4.2.of the agreement). I bet some will be trapped by this, so be careful.
that's why I used the words "prior to court approval"
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Old February 17th, 2017, 11:01   #2584
habsfan
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Originally Posted by Armby View Post
It doesn't impact your choice as long as you get it done before the claims process formally starts. . If you have this fix done after the claim process has started (late March) then you will no longer be eligible for the buy back (see paragraph 4.7.4.2.of the agreement). I bet some will be trapped by this, so be careful.
I agree with your observation that some or many will be 'trapped' by not appreciating the 'legal snare'.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 11:44   #2585
mxs
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Originally Posted by ElectricMayhem View Post
It is true that it is speculation that there will not be a fix for Gen 1 cars. But if there is not ever a fix, what do you suppose the letter will say?
I don't think even Wynn knows at the very moment what such letter in a future would say,

My guess, they would let is slide, because forcing people into a buyback will open them to lawsuits. Also, how many Gen 1 people who want to keep their vehicle are we talking about? The lower the number the more likely they will let it slide. I think majority of Gen 1 will grab the deal, since their loans are paid off and most have developed some reliability issues which make the decision pretty easy.

So, to answer your crystal ball question ... I don't think there ever will be a letter from government to the remaining Gen 1 owners who want to keep their cars even if there's no fix available.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 11:53   #2586
ElectricMayhem
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Originally Posted by mxs View Post
So, to answer your crystal ball question ... I don't think there ever will be a letter from government to the remaining Gen 1 owners who want to keep their cars even if there's no fix available.
So just to be clear, you think that I will be able to register my Gen 1 car forever? That would make me very happy. I would get $5100 that I could use to make repairs to it in the future, and I could continue with my plan to drive the car into the ground over a 15 year ownership period.

But what you are saying is that you think the government will wilfully ignore its own laws. As someone who once received a 5 km/h-over speeding ticket on the last day of a month, I don't think it works like that.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 13:05   #2587
Reactorface
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Originally Posted by ElectricMayhem View Post
So just to be clear, you think that I will be able to register my Gen 1 car forever? That would make me very happy. I would get $5100 that I could use to make repairs to it in the future, and I could continue with my plan to drive the car into the ground over a 15 year ownership period.

But what you are saying is that you think the government will wilfully ignore its own laws. As someone who once received a 5 km/h-over speeding ticket on the last day of a month, I don't think it works like that.
as per your earlier quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMayhem View Post
Nonsense. I am violating the law every time I drive it - look it up. It is just that the government is not enforcing that law right now because it is waiting on developments related to fixes.

Make no mistake, every affected TDI owner who drives his car is in violation of provincial law. Right now, today..
it would appear they already are willfully ignoring their own laws
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Old February 17th, 2017, 13:25   #2588
Armby
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Originally Posted by ElectricMayhem View Post
So just to be clear, you think that I will be able to register my Gen 1 car forever? That would make me very happy. I would get $5100 that I could use to make repairs to it in the future, and I could continue with my plan to drive the car into the ground over a 15 year ownership period.

But what you are saying is that you think the government will wilfully ignore its own laws. As someone who once received a 5 km/h-over speeding ticket on the last day of a month, I don't think it works like that.
I am not following you anymore. If there is no fix for your Gen1 car, you can't get it fixed and you don't get the $5100 for a fix.

You need to look at the politics, not just your sacred regulations. Regulations that are written can be modified or waivers can be granted.

There is clearly going to be a waiver on those regulations due to the fact that the fix will not bring the NOX emmissions fully into compliance (even you agreed with that a few messages back.) I agree with mxs that it's not a stretch to imaging there will also be a waiver for those that don't get their car fixed, especially if there is no fix.

But, for those that don't get the fix, even if its because none is offered, there will be no $5100.

Last edited by Armby; February 17th, 2017 at 13:28.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 13:49   #2589
ElectricMayhem
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Originally Posted by Reactorface View Post
as per your earlier quote
it would appear they already are willfully ignoring their own laws
Not really. They are temporarily not enforcing them until more is known about fixes, that's all. They can't do that forever. It is the function of the enforcement branch of the government to enforce the law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armby View Post
I am not following you anymore. If there is no fix for your Gen1 car, you can't get it fixed and you don't get the $5100 for a fix.
The $5100 is a tort damages payment only, for the reduced value of the car due to VW's fraud.

Clause 4.9.1:
If, by June 15, 2018, there is no Approved Emissions Modification, or second stage of an Approved Emissions Modification, for Eligible Vehicles with a particular Generation of engine, Settlement Class Members who own such Eligible Vehicles will be informed by a Class Update that, if they have not already made a Claim, or if no benefits under the Settlement Agreement have been received in respect of their Eligible Vehicle, they may opt out of the Settlement Class during the Second Opt-Out Period , except that they will receive their applicable Damages Payment

Quote:
You need to look at the politics, not just your sacred regulations. Regulations that are written can be modified or waivers can be granted.
You understand that the regulations are the cause of all this, right? If there were no regulations, there would be no scandal. I had nothing to do with the regulations, by the way.

The politics are that there are millions of voters in the GTA who knowingly voted for massively increased electricity bills informed by green politicking. If a few VW owners suffer so the fluff heads in the GTA can reach environmental nirvana, that is just too bad, so sad. Kathleen Wynne does not care about me, except to the extent that I am a tax slave owned by her.

You think they will pass a special law for me? That would be awesome. Will never ever happen. Most Gen 1 owners will take the buyback, and the few who don't will feel the boot of Kathleen Wynne on their necks.

Last edited by ElectricMayhem; February 17th, 2017 at 15:09.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 14:43   #2590
MrShip
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Got my package in Canada as well, here's the full quote from the front page:

Quote:
Important Information

The nationwide Settlement must be approved by Courts in Ontario and Quebec before the claims program begins in Canada. Settlement approval hearings are scheduled for the end of March 2017.

If you receive the modification through this recall before the Settlement claims program begins, there will be no impact on the choice of eligible benefits available to you under the Settlement.

Proceeding with the recall after the Settlement claims program begins will eliminate any rights that you may have to choose a buyback, trade-in or early lease termination under the Settlement.

Please note that by participating in the recall, you are not making a claim for benefits under the Settlement. Please visit www.VWCanadaSettlement.ca or call 1-888-670-4773 for more information.
Here are the warranty numbers for us Canadian Gen 3 owners:
Quote:
Warranty Period

The warranty period for the "Extended Emissions Warranty" limited warranty extension shall be the greater of:
  • 11 years or 261,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the vehicle's original in-service date; OR
  • 5 years or 97,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of Phase 1 of the emissions modification. At the time of the subsequent Phase 2 modification, the extended warranty will be honoured for 5 years or 97,000 km, whichever occurs first, from the date and mileage of the completion of Phase 2.
I'm at 75,000 km already. If I move on the recall ASAP, I may lose out on some warranty coverage in the long term vs. waiting for the settlement to be approved and starting Phase 1 in a few months. Waiting a while could put me at 100,000 km by September and depending on when Phase 2 would be available/scheduled (if I wait till the end) would mean that I could be covered to 300,000 km

On the flip side, I'll be in a limbo period of no more new-vehicle warranty very shortly (minus drivetrain) and non-stop coverage till 261,000 km is pretty damn good as it is.

Not sure which to pick yet...

Links from the settlement page:
https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/wp...-3_English.pdf
https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/wp...l_new-size.pdf
https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/wp...vised-logo.pdf
https://www.vwcanadasettlement.ca/wp...H_new-size.pdf

Last edited by MrShip; February 17th, 2017 at 14:45. Reason: Added letters and booklet links
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Old February 17th, 2017, 18:25   #2591
Armby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectricMayhem View Post
The $5100 is a tort damages payment only, for the reduced value of the car due to VW's fraud.
Clause 4.9.1:
If, by June 15, 2018, there is no Approved Emissions Modification, or second stage of an Approved Emissions Modification, for Eligible Vehicles with a particular Generation of engine, Settlement Class Members who own such Eligible Vehicles will be informed by a Class Update that, if they have not already made a Claim, or if no benefits under the Settlement Agreement have been received in respect of their Eligible Vehicle, they may opt out of the Settlement Class during the Second Opt-Out Period , except that they will receive their applicable Damages Payment.
Yikes. If you are going to quote something you cant just quote the parts you want so that it makes your point. Here is the entire clause 4.9.1 (with the key part you omitted in bold)

Owned Vehicles. If, by June 15, 2018, there is no Approved
Emissions Modification, or second stage of an Approved
Emissions Modification, for Eligible Vehicles with a particular
Generation of engine, Settlement Class Members who own such
Eligible Vehicles will be informed by a Class Update that, if they
have not already made a Claim, or if no benefits under the
Settlement Agreement have been received in respect of their
Eligible Vehicle, they may opt out of the Settlement Class during
the Second Opt-Out Period or, if they remain in the Settlement
Class, or if their Eligible Vehicle has been modified with the first
stage of an Approved Emissions Modification, they may choose
a Buyback or Buyback With Trade-In regardless of whether they
meet the definition of an Eligible Owner, in which case
Sections 4.2.3 through 4.2.5 and Schedules “B” and “E” will
apply to them as if they are Eligible Owners for purposes thereof,

except that they will receive their applicable Damages Payment,
or fifty percent (50%) of the applicable Damages Payment if their
Eligible Vehicle has been modified with the first stage of an
Approved Emissions Modification. For avoidance of doubt, if a
Class Update is issued on or before June 15, 2018 identifying
that there is an Approved Emissions Modification, or a second
stage of an Approved Emissions Modification, for Eligible
Vehicles, this Section shall not be applicable to owners of such
Eligible Vehicles.

The "except they will receive their applicable damages" phrase applies if you opt for a buy back in the case when there is no modification approved. The buy back will be available to more types of owners, including those that purchased after Sept 2015, who would otherwise not be eligible for a buy back. The "except they will receive their applicable damages" phrase limits their damages payment to what they would have received as an Eligible Purchaser.
Anyways, its a complicated clause, so you need to read it carefully and you can't just skip the parts you don't like.

Bottom line, if there is no mod and you don't do the buy back you don't get the payment.
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Old February 17th, 2017, 19:03   #2592
ElectricMayhem
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Originally Posted by Armby View Post
Anyways, its a complicated clause, so you need to read it carefully
Ya think? That is really all you needed to say. You don't need to impute any kind of motives or make snide remarks. I did not omit it to mislead anyone, I left it out because I incorrectly thought it was extraneous. That sentence is 19 lines long, after all.

I'd like to point out that I was not a dick about your HST misapprehension.

We are all struggling to understand all this. There is a lot of missing and unclear information.

In the end, I think you are right on this particular matter:

1. EligibleOwners
a) EligibleOwnerswhochoose:
i. Buyback will receive a payment for the sum of:

-or-
ii. Trade-In will have all or a portion of their vehicle’s Fair Market Value at the time of the Trade-In applied towards the purchase price of a new or used Volkswagen or Audi vehicle, and will receive a payment for the sum of:

-or-
iii. Approved Emissions Modification will receive the Approved Emissions Modification Extended Warranty, and are eligible to receive the Owner Damages Payment, when they complete the Approved Emissions Modification.

So effectively if there is no fix, I will be giving my car back and buying another one.

This is counterintuitive, because the $5100 is to compensate me for the diminished value of my car. I don't think the $5100 should be tied to what I do with the car.

Last edited by ElectricMayhem; February 17th, 2017 at 19:23.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 04:43   #2593
1sTDI
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How does one determine what Generation vehicle they have?
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Old February 18th, 2017, 06:01   #2594
ElectricMayhem
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How does one determine what Generation vehicle they have?
All TDI's 2009-2014 are Gen 1 except for:

2012-2014 Passats (Gen 2)

And all TDI's from 2015/16 are Gen 3
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Old February 18th, 2017, 06:13   #2595
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^ thank you
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