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Old February 11th, 2017, 07:45   #31
scooperhsd
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Originally Posted by NSTDI View Post
I will quote in Canadian MPG, 30 MPG converts to about 10L/100KM. These are average fuel economy numbers for mixed driving, except as noted. I am anal about recording fuel consumption and these numbers are actual.

My 2003 Passat 1.8L driven hard gave about 30-32 MPG with manual.
My Dad's 1982 Olds 98 4 door automatic 5.0L driven at 65MPH on the highway gave better than 30 MPG.
My 98 Beetle manual TDI gave better than 50MPG driven hard.
My 87 Dakota 4WD auto, 18 MPG. 3.9L V6 with a Holley 2 barrel.
2002 Tacoma 4WD 3.4L FI V6 manual, about 21 MPG on a good day.
84 Camry 4 cyl manual, 46 mpg highway (worst car I ever owned).
75 Nova 5.7L auto, 25 MPG highway, city a whole lot less. Bought it new.

Computerized FI is much more efficient than a carb 9 times out of 10. What amazes me is how little the fuel economy has improved over the 75 Nova, 82 Olds, 84 Camry, and 87 Dakota with the new fuel systems, better transmissions, etc.

As to how long a turbo small displacement motor will last, those 1.8L VW's ran forever without major issues. My 2003 was chipped and I drove the crap out of it.

Ford's turbo V6 in trucks is relatively new, it will be interesting to see how it stands up over time. Fuel economy wise they are much better on fuel than a V8, until you get into the boost. When towing, the fuel economy gets cut in half.

I think the next big change possible is a major improvement in batteries will get us into all electric cars. Electric motors are proven technology, lots of torque, last forever, low maintenance, zero emissions, no sensors, no exhaust, no turbo, no transmission. Check out electric car drag racing.

The weak link is the batteries- if a new battery is developed that is half the weight, has a range comparable to a gas car, say 600KM's or 400 miles, and a quick charge or changeout (like say trading your propane BBQ tank).

New gas or diesel small cars will go the way of the dodo. It could be in the next 5-20 years?

I will not even consider electric cars until they can meet this hurdle -
300 Mile range, no more than 30 minute zero to full charge (30 minute DIY full replace of battery pack would be acceptable - as long as it is generally available on the road). A total dismantlement of the TSA so flying is again more convient would be acceptable as well.

I'm not even all that fond of hybrid vehicles. But with the ICE giving the said 300+ mile range and refill requirements, at least they are more acceptable than pure electric.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 06:19   #32
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I had a chevy express with a v6 3.6L and I had it loaded. Damn thing had to downshift if there was a head on wind. Got worse economy than the V8 my coworker had.

Now have a Nissan Sv that has a 2.0L with far far less material and it has little 185 tires and gets worse economy than my wifes 2.5L rogue with 225 18's.
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Old February 12th, 2017, 18:26   #33
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I am one of those people who got a 2017 Jetta S 1.4 TSI with my $500 dealer card that was going to expire in November. Just filled it up for the second time today, 577 miles on 13.3 gallons, which I calculate to be 43.4 miles per gallon in mixed driving. I tend to drive it like a diesel and use boost a lot. (Not sure if this is good for longevity, but it just feels good to me.) I'm certainly impressed - I can never get much more than 40 mpg with the 2014 Passat TDI DSG.
Same story here. My 2017 Jetta S with a 1.4 has actually been more fun to drive than my 2009 JSW TDI, and it's getting better mileage than my somewhat battered TDI. Plenty of power starting at a lower RPM than the TDI and I hardly ever get past 2500 RPM (except from time to time for maintenance purposes).
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Old February 14th, 2017, 04:21   #34
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His opinion echoes a Reuters report last autumn which stated that new emissions tests had exposed flaws in downsized engines. In real life, the report stated, these turbocharged units have a tendency to overheat when their tiny turbos are called on to deliver real-world performance.

To combat this, the engine's software strategy will over-fuel the engine, which results in increased emissions of CO2, oxides of nitrogen as well as unburnt hydrocarbons, particulates and carbon monoxide.
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Old February 14th, 2017, 04:58   #35
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Probably why so many of these smaller GDI engines have such sooty tailpipes. The tailpipe of my 21 year old F150 with over 100k miles is still clean, and that is with an engine that was designed sometime back in the 1960s and was hardly a cutting edge one at that. While my dad's 2015 F150, with its impressively powerful little 2.7L Nano V6 already is getting a black tailpipe and it has not even gotten to its second service interval.

Unloaded, though, that new truck does get better fuel economy. Not sure how it does loaded though, and chances are it never will be loaded very much anyway.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 10:09   #36
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Originally Posted by NSTDI View Post

Computerized FI is much more efficient than a carb 9 times out of 10. What amazes me is how little the fuel economy has improved over the 75 Nova, 82 Olds, 84 Camry, and 87 Dakota with the new fuel systems, better transmissions, etc.
Huh? we haven't had carbs since the late 70's and some of last ones had some really messed up electronics and emission equipment tacked on to them.

I think that the FE on EFI cars was gobbled up by stricter and stricter emission standards. If we still had the same emission standards we had in the1960's and earlier's, EFI would have run circles around any carb in performance and FE.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 10:17   #37
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Huh? we haven't had carbs since the late 70's and some of last ones had some really messed up electronics and emission equipment tacked on to them.
I think that the FE on EFI cars was gobbled up by stricter and stricter emission standards. If we still had the same emission standards we had in the1960's and earlier's, EFI would have run circles around any carb in performance and FE.
I think you are a little off there. Carburetors were largely non-electronic until 1981, and there were still some in use into the early '90s. The very last one on road going light duty vehicles was in 1994.

And many of the highest MPG gasoline cars were in the '80s, and did indeed have carburetors. The CVCC Hondas come to mind, but there were also the VV Tercels, and some pretty darn frugal carbed Mitsubishi and Mazdas too. They were not particularly powerful, but when EFI was largely limited to TBI or gang-fired port systems, or CIS, those carb engines did provide some pretty impressive MPGs. The highest MPG Honda Civic ever, even higher than the hybrids, had a CVCC carb. They could match a manual gearbox ALH TDI on the highway for fuel consumption. The EFI Civics sold right alongside them could not.

It has not been until fairly recently with not only SFI but far better injector designs, higher pressure returnless systems, much better air-fuel ratio management brought on by better ways to measure incoming air and wide band lambda sensors, more advanced variable cam phasing, direct injection, light pressure turbocharging, and just a general improvement in small increments here and there that has given some of the modern gasoline engines the ability to overcome some of the morbid obesity modern cars have been cursed with. Now once again, MPG numbers are going back up. Still, if you had a Civic-sized time machine and could bring me a factory fresh 1988 CRX HX I could embarrass a 2017 Civic at the fuel pump. Yes, it would be slower, and yes it is much lighter, and no it does not have all the equipment the newer one has. But its tiny carburetor could use very little gasoline to get you where you needed to go. And they were actually pretty fun to drive, too!
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Old February 16th, 2017, 12:49   #38
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Probably why so many of these smaller GDI engines have such sooty tailpipes. The tailpipe of my 21 year old F150 with over 100k miles is still clean, and that is with an engine that was designed sometime back in the 1960s and was hardly a cutting edge one at that. While my dad's 2015 F150, with its impressively powerful little 2.7L Nano V6 already is getting a black tailpipe and it has not even gotten to its second service interval.

Unloaded, though, that new truck does get better fuel economy. Not sure how it does loaded though, and chances are it never will be loaded very much anyway.
I saw a couple year old Hyundai sedan yesterday were both tailpipes looked worse than the back of my beetle when she had a fuel leak. Even dirty sticky diesel fuel wasn't as bad as all the soot on the back of the hyundai.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 18:03   #39
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I will not even consider electric cars until they can meet this hurdle -
300 Mile range, no more than 30 minute zero to full charge (30 minute DIY full replace of battery pack would be acceptable - as long as it is generally available on the road). A total dismantlement of the TSA so flying is again more convient would be acceptable as well.

I'm not even all that fond of hybrid vehicles. But with the ICE giving the said 300+ mile range and refill requirements, at least they are more acceptable than pure electric.

You will never own an electric car in your life time...
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Old February 16th, 2017, 18:09   #40
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What is old is new again... There have been tiny 3 cylinder even two cylinder cars for 50 years. There has been monster engines as well.

I thought I never own a turbo car, because I preferred Cubic Inches for power. However turbo increases efficiency especially for a diesel.

There is NO FREE LUNCH.... to get real tiny tiny cars is not popular with Americans who love Trucks, SUV's, Mini Vans and big touring cars. You need power to move that mass and all the stuff it hauls. Cubic Inches does that... You can turbo your 1 Liter all day long... it will puke compared to a 5 Liter normally aspirated.
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Old February 16th, 2017, 18:12   #41
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What is old is new again... There have been tiny 3 cylinder even two cylinder cars for 50 years. There has been monster engines as well in the past, and they came back with a vengeance. Many of those monster V8's of course use cylinder shut down schemes to get close to high teens or low 20 MPG.

I thought I'd never own a turbo car, because complexity, reliability. I preferred Cubic Inches for power. However turbo increases efficiency especially for a diesel.

There is NO FREE LUNCH.... tiny cars need way less power to go, but they are not popular with Americans who love Trucks, SUV's, Mini Vans and big touring cars. You need power to move the mass and all the stuff those land yachts hauls. Cubic Inches does that... You can turbo your 1 Liter all day long... it will puke compared to a 5 Liter normally aspirated.

One day gas will go back to $5 or $10 a gallon and people will be running from those big gas guzzlers again. It goes in cycles.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 05:39   #42
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Good discussion going one here.

I read from time to time in this thread and others that perhaps the latest and greatest gasoline powered passenger vehicles are starting to 'catch up' fuel efficiency wise to the latest similarly sized/driven light duty diesel passenger vehicles. This might be true on an anecdotical basis but once you look up at aggregated data from Fuelly.com and the like you realize that the laws of Physic still favor light duty diesel passenger vehicles by around 20-30% in terms fuel efficiency.

Not only this, but from an environmental point of view, when you take into account the complete life cycle of the vehicle, only electrical vehicles using electricity from renewable sources and/or natural gas surpass light duty diesel passenger cars.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 06:25   #43
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The fuel consumption (by volume of fuel) advantage is still in favor of diesel but not by the margin that it once was.

If CO2 is your thing, that advantage slims down by about 10%.

If cost of operation is your thing, the extra complexity of the emission control systems and the HPFP and all the things that go along with those is going to go against whatever fuel savings may exist. In many cases the cost of operation may be higher if these systems aren't durable in the long term.

"Clean diesel" is when I switched back to gasoline engines ...
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Old February 18th, 2017, 06:50   #44
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We can thank a rather ingenious Ontarian (2micron) for developing a solution to the hpfp issue. I'm driving my cousin's mx5 while runonbeer does some clutch work on my golf, and though the mx5 is a fantastic car, I do miss the torque of my little diesel.
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Old February 18th, 2017, 06:59   #45
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One of my customers has a Transit with the Ecoboost engine and it gets worse mileage than their 2003(ish) Chevy 6.0 gassers. This is an electric contractor so there is a lot of in town, stop and go, short tripping. They also have two Duramax vans, but I don't know what their mileage is.

Another thing I thought of as I read this is that if the EPA allows excess emissions in certain conditions such as in WOT emergency type driving, with the smaller engines, aren't they running close to that situation more often?
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