Cyclonic action CCV Air/Oil separator fabrication

josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

seaglf said:
I wonder if it could be routed to where it goes closer to the heads.

Unfortunately any closer to the head, and it would be on the pressurized side of the turbo

Currently I'm running a very small air bleed from the pressurized side of the intake after the intercooler directly into the flow of my cyclonic separator. This helps increase the volume throughput through the separator which speeds up the rotational velocity causing more oil to separate out. Quite a bit of oil gets removed, but some gets by.

Since I'm already taking a very small air bleed from the pressurized sid of the intake, I though why not take my pressure bleed from the bottom of the intercooler? This way when oil wants to pool up there, it would be blown up through my small diameter bleed tube, and into my separator where it will be removed. This simple modification will totally eliminate the oil pooling issue at the intercooler, and forever eliminate the possibility of blowing up the engine from oil getting into the combustion chamber.

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DanG144 · Aug 21, 2011

If you drove it in below freezing weather (not a huge problem for you in FL) the bleed hoses you are talking about are very likely to freeze up.

There is often a fair amount of water in the air stream that condenses as the pressure increases.

seaglf · Aug 21, 2011

DanG144 said:
If you drove it in below freezing weather (not a huge problem for you in FL) the bleed hoses you are talking about are very likely to freeze up.

There is often a fair amount of water in the air stream that condenses as the pressure increases.

Insulate the hoses!

seaglf · Aug 21, 2011

josh8loop said:
Unfortunately any closer to the head, and it would be on the pressurized side of the turbo
Currently I'm running a very small air bleed from the pressurized side of the intake after the intercooler directly into the flow of my cyclonic separator. This helps increase the volume throughput through the separator which speeds up the rotational velocity causing more oil to separate out. Quite a bit of oil gets removed, but some gets by.
Since I'm already taking a very small air bleed from the pressurized sid of the intake, I though why not take my pressure bleed from the bottom of the intercooler? This way when oil wants to pool up there, it would be blown up through my small diameter bleed tube, and into my separator where it will be removed. This simple modification will totally eliminate the oil pooling issue at the intercooler, and forever eliminate the possibility of blowing up the engine from oil getting into the combustion chamber.

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Let me know if you get low boost pressure code.

DanG144 · Aug 21, 2011

Insulation slows cooling. They would still freeze overnight.

There is a reason that the OEM CCV is short, compact, and still has a heater on it where it goes into the intake.

Robbing pressurized air - it would have to be fairly large to give you a low boost code, but it would not have to be too large an air flow to disrupt your smoke map. Your ECU thinks all the flow it sees from the MAF goes for combustion. It would possibly allow more fuel to be added than you have air for, causing smoke earlier.

I do not know how sensitive the fuel/air map is, but I do know that simply leaving a seal out on a BEW or newer engine will cause bad air flow problems - you do not have to have a hose off or large hole in it.

josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

seaglf said:
Let me know if you get low boost pressure code.

I have actually had the air bleed installed at least a couple weeks, and no codes at all. Performance is the same. This is a very small air bleed, and not enough volume to upset the apple cart.

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josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

DanG144 said:
If you drove it in below freezing weather (not a huge problem for you in FL) the bleed hoses you are talking about are very likely to freeze up.

There is often a fair amount of water in the air stream that condenses as the pressure increases.

I guess even if the air bleed hose were to freeze up, it would eventually thaw out and be functional again. It's not necessarily needed for the cyclonic separator to be functional. It has a dual purpose-one to give a slight air flow bias to the separator so that it will work more efficiently at lower CCV flows, and two to carry any condensed oil away from the lower IC to the separator where it can be dealt with.

I've not had my TDI in the colder climates, so I am not sure how much liquid water collects and freezes in the lower IC. I don't recall anyone posting about finding anything but oil collecting(ALH engine) in the lower IC-I could be wrong though.

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DanG144 · Aug 21, 2011

The older cars do not have much trouble with the moisture issue, lower boost pressure reduces the condensation, and higher velocities carry it away better.

But the 09's and later have a tremendous problem with moisture, cold weather - even hydrolocking some engines.

Sometimes (depending upon the weather), even in the older cars, the oil in the bottom of the intercooler is the chocolaty brown you get from having moisture in it - I have never found liquid water.

josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

DanG144 said:
Insulation slows cooling. They would still freeze overnight.

There is a reason that the OEM CCV is short, compact, and still has a heater on it where it goes into the intake.

Robbing pressurized air - it would have to be fairly large to give you a low boost code, but it would not have to be too large an air flow to disrupt your smoke map. Your ECU thinks all the flow it sees from the MAF goes for combustion. It would possibly allow more fuel to be added than you have air for, causing smoke earlier.

I do not know how sensitive the fuel/air map is, but I do know that simply leaving a seal out on a BEW or newer engine will cause bad air flow problems - you do not have to have a hose off or large hole in it.

I agree that the MAF expects all the air it measures to be used for combustion purposes, and certainly helps adjust the fueling accordingly so something to at least be aware of. I haven't had an issue with it, but I don't exactly have aggresive fueling or tune. I had a boost leak at my EGR "O" ring for a long time before I noticed it, and it didn't seem to have much effect. I replaced the "O" ring, and I can now use that air for my own purposes. Muhahhhaa

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josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

DanG144 said:
The older cars do not have much trouble with the moisture issue, lower boost pressure reduces the condensation, and higher velocities carry it away better.

But the 09's and later have a tremendous problem with moisture, cold weather - even hydrolocking some engines.

Sometimes (depending upon the weather), even in the older cars, the oil in the bottom of the intercooler is the chocolaty brown you get from having moisture in it - I have never found liquid water.

Good point! Thaks Dan! I guess this is a good time to mention this is being tailored specifically to ALH TDI, and not the later years yet.

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josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

Now to go out and clean my oil demisting pads......

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Keith_J · Aug 21, 2011

You shouldn't have any issues with a tiny bit of bleed air with respect to the MAF. Since this air returns to the intake after the MAF, it isn't a leak.

Condensation would be an issue in cold climates, insulating the CCV would prevent most ice issues, there already is a good deal of bleed air from the vacuum system (this bypasses the MAF)

josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

Keith_J said:
You shouldn't have any issues with a tiny bit of bleed air with respect to the MAF. Since this air returns to the intake after the MAF, it isn't a leak.

Condensation would be an issue in cold climates, insulating the CCV would prevent most ice issues, there already is a good deal of bleed air from the vacuum system (this bypasses the MAF)

Great point-I didn't look at it that way, but that's correct! I will most likely shorten the inlet and outlet lines to the separator and then I shoudn't have any issues even in the colder weather. I can also insulate the separator like BMW does on their cold weather models, and that should take care of things.

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josh8loop · Aug 21, 2011

Cleaned the demisting pads today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEZzSUQONVA

They weren't too bad but there was a slight bit of caked on black solid material on some of the SS Pads. I had noticed a little bit of that in my separator, and wondered where it came from. I only have 162K miles on the car, so maybe that's why it was pretty clean.

...

Keith_J · Aug 21, 2011

josh8loop said:
Cleaned the demisting pads today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEZzSUQONVA

They weren't too bad but there was a slight bit of caked on black solid material on some of the SS Pads. I had noticed a little bit of that in my separator, and wondered where it came from. I only have 162K miles on the car, so maybe that's why it was pretty clean.

...

Those pads are clean. Mine were nearly solid

. And your engine is a lot cleaner than mine when I had it apart at 165k. Did you flush your cylinder head clean before taking the video?

josh8loop · Aug 22, 2011

Keith_J said:
Those pads are clean. Mine were nearly solid . And your engine is a lot cleaner than mine when I had it apart at 165k. Did you flush your cylinder head clean before taking the video?

No, actually I didn't flush the engine with cleaner-that's just the way it was. Sounds like that is a good thing!

thanks for the point of reference! I wasn't sure how it looked comparatively. Recently when I resealed my oil pan, the bottom end looked just as clean.

Unfortunately after I purchased the car at 104K I ended up using Rotella 15w40 for the first 50K or so, and just recently I switched to the T6 which I really like. I guess the 15w40 didn't hurt things too much. Glad I'm using the right oil for the turbos sake. I took some close ups of the cam and lifters hopefully to get someone to look at and tell me if all looks good on the wear side of things. Especially since I am experimenting with higher temps and other things.

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josh8loop · Aug 23, 2011

Anyone else out there experimenting/trying this type of setup yet? Mine still seems to be working well. Soon I will be trying my small air bleed from the lower IC to totally eliminate IC oil pooling. This will allow me to physically see and monitor all the oil that comes from the CCV, and the turbo seals. Cool!!

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josh8loop · Aug 31, 2011

Update:

Recently attached a very small diameter bleed tube(1/8" ID) to the lowest spot on my lower intercooler plastic inlet manifold. The bleed tube goes into the inlet of my Cyclonic Air/Oil separator like I mentioned in another post above. The unique thing this allows me to do is constantly bleed a very small amount of air and any liquid oil accumulation from the lower IC directly to my Air/Oil separator so I can trend CCV blowby, and turbo oil seal blowby. This will ensure I won't have to deal with run away(unless a catastrophic turbo failure happens), and gives great visual feedback on the general health of the engine. Since I drive mostly for FE oil accumulation is higher VS someone who drives their engine hard-so for me this is very worthwhile.

When I attached my small bleed line, I drained the small amount of oil from the IC at that time. So far I have noticed that the inside of my bleed line has a bit of oil coating in it, so it looks like it will do it's intended job very well. I plan on making another video showing my current and most likely permanent setup so others may be able to construct their own too.

I am very pleased with how this is turning out, and IMHO it is very worth while to construct. Total cost is about $40-45 in parts and maybe a couple hours to install. Others may come up with other additions like fully insulated cyclonic separator, and insulated separator hoses, but for me in my climate this works very well!

seaglf · Aug 31, 2011

hella cool dude!

Check on your VCDS to see what the MAP values are while the hose is opened to flow to the Cyclonic separator. let us know if you get a cel and code for the MAP.

If this works you could get Nobel (piece) prize, for fixing a (piece) of Sh##t emissions system.

josh8loop · Aug 31, 2011

No CEL's yet. I have had an air bleed on for 3 weeks or so.

To quote Keith J:

You shouldn't have any issues with a tiny bit of bleed air with respect to the MAF. Since this air returns to the intake after the MAF, it isn't a leak.

Condensation would be an issue in cold climates, insulating the CCV would prevent most ice issues, there already is a good deal of bleed air from the vacuum system (this bypasses the MAF)

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josh8loop · Aug 31, 2011

seaglf said:
hella cool dude!
Check on your VCDS to see what the MAP values are while the hose is opened to flow to the Cyclonic separator. let us know if you get a cel and code for the MAP.
If this works you could get Nobel (piece) prize, for fixing a (piece) of Sh##t emissions system.

Thanks for the compliment!

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BobnOH · Aug 31, 2011

Just cause I'm too lazy to read all 50 posts (I did read 15or20), what is the benefit of this?
Keep oil out of the intercooler piping?
that would be a good thing

dieselfuel · Aug 31, 2011

Josh,

Drilling into the IC piping, doesn't that create a boost leak?

Also, was it you that bought the BMW seperator...? I don't remember where I read about the BMW (I read too much to remmeber where I read something...!) seperator, but I think I remember it costing about $50.

df

josh8loop · Aug 31, 2011

BobnOH said:
Just cause I'm too lazy to read all 50 posts (I did read 15or20), what is the benefit of this?
Keep oil out of the intercooler piping?
that would be a good thing

Right

I basically made us of an off the shelf BMW cyclonic Air/Oil separator that can be purchased for $27.00 or so and added a small bleed line to my lower intercooler to eliminate oil accumulation.

I put a quick video together of the new BMW Cyclonic Air/Oil separator for my CCV. The part can be purchased from ECS tuning:

http://www.ecstuning.com/

You can find the exact part I used by copy and pasteing this part number in their search:

11151705237

Here is the U-tube video of my initial setup. I added a small bleed line to the system which is not shown in this particular video. Works VERY well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMuQhPClVCU

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josh8loop · Aug 31, 2011

dieselfuel said:
Josh,

Drilling into the IC piping, doesn't that create a boost leak?

Also, was it you that bought the BMW seperator...? I don't remember where I read about the BMW (I read too much to remmeber where I read something...!) seperator, but I think I remember it costing about $50.

df

No, it really doesn't create a boost leak perse, just a redirecting of a small amount of boost pressure to help stop oil accumulation-In case your wondering the MAF has already accounted for this air, and fueling will not be affected from this. It's a very very small bleed, and not enough to cause CEL's. Check out the post above for the part details and a video of the initial install.

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Keith_J · Aug 31, 2011

I would think the bleed would only recycle the intake tract oil. Of course some of the oil eventually is burned.

Now draining the IC every oil change would be a better solution since the oil in the intake is catching a good bit of dirt which the filter cannot trap. Since this oil is dirty, running it through the engine appears to have some negative potential. But in the stock car, it runs through the intake.

I just drain mine every oil change, usually just a tablespoon.

josh8loop · Sep 1, 2011

Keith_J said:
I would think the bleed would only recycle the intake tract oil. Of course some of the oil eventually is burned.

Now draining the IC every oil change would be a better solution since the oil in the intake is catching a good bit of dirt which the filter cannot trap. Since this oil is dirty, running it through the engine appears to have some negative potential. But in the stock car, it runs through the intake.

I just drain mine every oil change, usually just a tablespoon.

The bleed simply moves the oil collected from the lower IC to the inlet of the Cyclonic separator so it can be separated out. This separator can be drained to a clear container like I have mine now to view what it's catching or can be routed back to the engine through perhaps a small inline filter if you wish. That way any debris wouldn't be recycled back to the engine. There really shouldn't be any debris in there if the air filter is working properly and the IC doesn't have contaminants from say a previous failed turbo etc.

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rickmay · Sep 1, 2011

questions

Can you hear the separator turbine turning when the car is runnng? In other words, is it doing anything?

Why are you trying this? Your car has some age, and I wonder what you have to gain other than knowledge.

I got interested in the forum because my Jetta just went out of warranty, and I also bought a 1983 Mercedes, 240D in March, and I have been working on it since. I have not seen the word M _ _ _ _ _ _ _ on the forum anywhere, so if you all start throwing something at my head, make it 16 oz. cans of Miller High Life. Josh, I drove by Port St. Lucie going from Miami to Chicago area. I traded my "parked" MGB and grandpa's gas-guzzling Grand Marquis for this exceptionally clean car.

Watch these two videos and guess which car has serious blowby.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4puPoZpdJQA

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnXaMkyA0hw

Given little air movement, as in my MB and one of the above videos, I wonder if your turbine even turns. Maybe, it is a way BMW can get their owners back into the dealer for work. Is the filter in your separator replaceable, or do you replace the whole unit when it gets gummed up?

I noticed that someone asked if you got any computer errors. This makes me wonder if anyone has tried venting the car into the air, as they were 30-40 years ago, and then solving the computer errors if any. A few scallywags are not going to wreck good old mother earth.

I disabled my EGR two weeks ago, and have been contemplating re-routing my CCV coming off my turbineless separator to Port St. Lucie rather than the inside of my engine. This way, most of the oil will find its way back into the crankcase, and the wafting particulates will find their way out east. OR, I JUST HAD A THOUGHT. Why not run them FIRST thru the separator (oil goes into crankcase) and then a filter, and then turn the leftovers, how little, into the air? I see an environmentally acceptable plan formulating, here. Ah, the advantages of no computer or Oxygen sensor. There is also an advantage to a rear wheel car. You can put large-tire-overdrive on it to increase your mileage.

How about replacing your separator with an ordinary separator, to an air filter (vented to PSL), followed by more hose, followed by a easily actuated one way valve, then going where it goes now. Maybe the computer would be fooled by the slight back pressure of the one way valve. Maybe, the one way valve needs a hole of a certain size so it emulates what you already have. If the computer doesn't like the leaner exhaust, how about one of those EFIE things they use with HHO to fool the computer? How about, I just shut-up, and wait for the Miller's to start flying?

josh8loop · Sep 1, 2011

rickmay said:
Can you hear the separator turbine turning when the car is runnng? In other words, is it doing anything?

Why are you trying this? Your car has some age, and I wonder what you have to gain other than knowledge.

I got interested in the forum because my Jetta just went out of warranty, and I also bought a 1983 Mercedes, 240D in March, and I have been working on it since. I have not seen the word M _ _ _ _ _ _ _ on the forum anywhere, so if you all start throwing something at my head, make it 16 oz. cans of Miller High Life. Josh, I drove by Port St. Lucie going from Miami to Chicago area. I traded my "parked" MGB and grandpa's gas-guzzling Grand Marquis for this exceptionally clean car.

Watch these two videos and guess which car has serious blowby.

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4puPoZpdJQA

2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnXaMkyA0hw

Given little air movement, as in my MB and one of the above videos, I wonder if your turbine even turns. Maybe, it is a way BMW can get their owners back into the dealer for work. Is the filter in your separator replaceable, or do you replace the whole unit when it gets gummed up?

I noticed that someone asked if you got any computer errors. This makes me wonder if anyone has tried venting the car into the air, as they were 30-40 years ago, and then solving the computer errors if any. A few scallywags are not going to wreck good old mother earth.

I disabled my EGR two weeks ago, and have been contemplating re-routing my CCV coming off my turbineless separator to Port St. Lucie rather than the inside of my engine. This way, most of the oil will find its way back into the crankcase, and the wafting particulates will find their way out east. OR, I JUST HAD A THOUGHT. Why not run them FIRST thru the separator (oil goes into crankcase) and then a filter, and then turn the leftovers, how little, into the air? I see an environmentally acceptable plan formulating, here. Ah, the advantages of no computer or Oxygen sensor. There is also an advantage to a rear wheel car. You can put large-tire-overdrive on it to increase your mileage.

How about replacing your separator with an ordinary separator, to an air filter (vented to PSL), followed by more hose, followed by a easily actuated one way valve, then going where it goes now. Maybe the computer would be fooled by the slight back pressure of the one way valve. Maybe, the one way valve needs a hole of a certain size so it emulates what you already have. If the computer doesn't like the leaner exhaust, how about one of those EFIE things they use with HHO to fool the computer? How about, I just shut-up, and wait for the Miller's to start flying?

Honestly I'm not sure which parts you are being serious about, and which are in jest. Not very coherent. You haven't been around here much since you are a mew member, and new to TDI's in general-stick around learn a few things that are ALH TDI specific(which is what this system is tailored to) and then offer input.

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rickmay · Sep 2, 2011

???

What is ALH that you refer to?

I was serious about everything, except for the Millers and wafting particulates to Port St. Lucie.

What good is a turbine if it does not turn? Blowing into it proves nothing. CCV gases will drift out of the engine if the engine is in good shape, and that was the point of the two Mercedes videos. There is very little air movement out of a healthy engine, so, no air flow, perhaps, no turbine movement. It is a logical question, especially since you have very little oil in your jar.

I am not going to explain the rest, as I have already explained which is serious and which is jest.

It seems the younger generation is losing its sense of humor. From my own point of view, it was a disaster when Polish jokes were labeled politically incorrect.

Cyclonic action CCV Air/Oil separator fabrication

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