B10 Mandated in Minnesota

bkcmmtr

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Joined
Jul 24, 2006
Location
Rochester, MN, USA
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2012 Golf
On July 1, 2014 a B10 mandate will go into effect until Sept. 31, 2014. In 2015 and thereafter B10 will be available for sale from April 1 through Sept. 31. B5 will be sold the remainder of the year. A move to B20 has been delayed until 2018. I don't know if B5 will continue to be an option during the summer months.
 

lovemybug

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SE Wisconsin
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2002 Red Beetle
I'm pretty sure my car will run just fine on that. It seems to run pretty good on the B5 whenever I'm up there visiting family.
 

tditom

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Location
Jackson, MI
TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
This is awesome news!
Unless VW sticks to their current limit of B5 for warranty coverage (with the B20 exception for IL registered tdi, of course)

What's with the 2008 tdi in your signature? How did you get that here in the states? What engine is in it?
 

Sappington

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2017 Chevy Volt now -- sold '03 Jetta Wagon :-(
It's good pressure on VW. I think it's embarrassing that they went from a offering a vehicle that could take B100, down to one that only takes B5, while GM's Cruze TDI is warranted for up to B20. I know VW never warranted B100, but at least their cars were compatible with it.
 

SamJammerTDi

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There are 31 days in September in Minnesota?
And somehow more votes than voters there too, ie Al Franken. I do not see how mandating what you buy is a good thing. Unintended concequences are all ready aparent with warranties. Mercedes also has B5 requirement for their 3.0 diesel bluetech.
 
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jettawreck

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Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
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2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
And somehow more votes than voters there too, ie Al Franken. I do not see how mandating what you buy is a good thing. Unintended concequences are all ready aparent with warranties. Mercedes also has B5 requirement for their 3.0 diesel bluetech.
There's nothing good about mandating what the legislature knows nothing about. The only thing they know is the farmer's lobby interests. Does all the B10 in storage tanks magically convert to B5 on Oct 1?? The first unexpected cold spell in the fall will see stalled vehicles all over the place in the north country.
 

BeetleGo

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Location
Cambridge, MA
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5-door, 5-speed Golf GLS replaced BeetleGo.
There's nothing good about mandating what the legislature knows nothing about. The only thing they know is the farmer's lobby interests. Does all the B10 in storage tanks magically convert to B5 on Oct 1?? The first unexpected cold spell in the fall will see stalled vehicles all over the place in the north country.
What are you talking about?! I have used B20 for years up here YEAR ROUND in Boston. We clearly have harsh winters. Clearly you don't use or trust biodiesel. Get your facts straight before spouting your version of the "truth" to everyone!
 

BeetleGo

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5-door, 5-speed Golf GLS replaced BeetleGo.
Large amounts?! We're talking one tenth! And it's doing your engine a favor! Normal Bzero sold in North America generally has cetane in the low 40's. Adding even B02 can up that considerably. Add B10, and the value climbs to the VW specified 50, or higher. (http://www.biodiesel.org/reports/19960901_gen-187.pdf) And the lubrication pretty much offsets the weaker fuel. When I use B100 (I have an '05 Golf, so I can) I don't see any performance hit.

And since VW already accepts B11 in Illinois, there shouldn't be a problem going to B10. :D
 
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tditom

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Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
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TDI
formerly: 2001 Golf GL, '97 Passat (RIP) '98 NB, '05 B5 sedan
Large amounts?! We're talking one tenth! And it's doing your engine a favor! Normal Bzero sold in North America generally has cetane in the low 40's. Adding even B02 can up that considerably. Add B10, and the value climbs to the VW specified 50, or higher. (http://www.biodiesel.org/reports/19960901_gen-187.pdf) And the lubrication pretty much offsets the weaker fuel. When I use B100 (I have an '05 Golf, so I can) I don't see any performance hit.

And since VW already accepts B11 in Illinois, there shouldn't be a problem going to B10. :D
You are overstating the cetane boost from biodiesel big time.
see table 3-1 of this document (pg 24) for the impact of 47 cetane B100 mixed with 40 cetane D2.
B2 ups it by 0.1, B5 by 0.3, and B20 by 1.4.

The energy content of biodiesel is about 9% less than D2, so it seems highly unlikely that you would not see a negative fuel economy impact. I'm sure that the higher lubricity of biodiesel must reduce some of the friction loss in the fuel pump, but I know that when I used B99 I definitely saw an impact on my FE in my ALH.
 
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SamJammerTDi

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Location
Laurel, Md. USA
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Mk4 jetta White automatic
I would say 2% is just fine, let the market fill the void w/b99 pumps for those that like it and let them blend to whatever point they like.
 

donDavide

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Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Location
Severna Park, Maryland USA
TDI
2003 Jetta ;2006 Golf; 2015 Jetta S
You are overstating the cetane boost from biodiesel big time.
see table 3-1 of this document (pg 24) for the impact of 47 cetane B100 mixed with 40 cetane D2.
B2 ups it by 0.1, by 0.3, and B20 by 1.4.
The energy content of biodiesel is about 9% less than D2, so it seems highly unlikely that you would not see a negative fuel economy impact. I'm sure that the higher lubricity of biodiesel must reduce some of the friction loss in the fuel pump, but I know that when I used B99 I definitely saw an impact on my FE in my ALH.
I used to see a 3-4 mpg decrease with B20 from the Navy Anex@ the Pentagon in my 98 Jetta.
 

PurpleGrimace

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St. Paul, MN
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2012 Jetta TDi
What are you talking about?! I have used B20 for years up here YEAR ROUND in Boston. We clearly have harsh winters. Clearly you don't use or trust biodiesel. Get your facts straight before spouting your version of the "truth" to everyone!
You have... difficult winters - not harsh ones. The Northern Plains have harsh ones.

*source - having lived in both areas of the country for several years each.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I'm going to stick my nose into this FIASCO!

As much as I would like to think becoming energy self-reliant sounds good, in practice, it's turning into one giant mess.

The tighter the tolerances for the newer diesels become, and the more biodiesel, soy bean oil for the greater part, the more unreliable the injectors and pumps are going to become.

Glycerines, the unburnable element in biodiesel, is becoming a nightmare, which is only good for the injector repair market. We are currently examining the issues that are plaguing the PD motors, although we can tell you that the CR's and VE two-stage nozzles are certainly not immune from the issues. The service life is not only affected by the goo that glycerines leave behind, but the acidity is causing metal erosion. On top of that, the higher pressures and operating temperatures are very hard on the valves, strangely enough, its the intake valves that are pitting.

I know that those who are sold on the product are going to blow a gasket and spout how many miles they have gone, great fuel economy... but the truth is that injectors are getting less tolerant, smaller orifices, more temperamental, and the bottom line, we have seen the results of 'deep fried' injectors, pumps and engines. For those who choose to do that, I applaud their pioneer attitude... but I don't want to be that pioneer.

The biodiesel boys who are the big proponents of the increased bio are at least aware of some of the issues and take steps to circumvent the problems. As for me, any trip through Illinois is FUEL AVOIDANCE, as I have no intention of becoming a guinea pig with my car running 20+/- bio in my car. If you want to take the chance, I'm all for it, but I think someone like me needs to get a nice ALTERNATIVE FUEL ... PURE DIESEL, WITHOUT ANY BIO!! It's worth more to me for that RARE ALTERNATE FUEL!

The real decision-makers we are dealing with are lobby groups and politicians, who spend more time looking at their polling numbers then reality. They look the other way and ignore the very real issues that are happening, all for a little boost from the 'save the world' set, who think we should all be pedaling bicycles or riding horses.

I've seen too many of these engines blown up to think it doesn't happen. Don't act like the gambler who only tells what he won and never about losing.

Anybody remember the crap called B85? It's a similar problem. I worked in that industry building equipment for several years. The most ignorant thing... they are supposed to be producing fuel, but in order to heat the mash, instead of using the FUEL THEY ARE PRODUCING, THEY USED NATURAL GAS! DOES THAT TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT COST EFFICIENCY?!?

The loss of cost efficiency from soy bean biodiesel is going to be engine down-time and replacement of expensive injectors and pumps. Watch and see.
 

Westro

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Joined
Sep 12, 2002
Location
Minnesota
TDI
2002,2002,2003
I wrote about this in 2010 BEFORE they pushed the mandate off. Made me cancel my order for a 2011 JSW. Iffy HPFP and dealing with B10 in a B5 warrentied car = no thanks.
 

austi012

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well
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2000 Beetle TDI
Biodiesel is the future. That's the way it is. The diesel engineers have some more work to do to design around the characteristics of the fuel, is all.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Don't get me wrong. I am looking forward to the day that we can all grow our own patch of soybeans, canola, sunflowers, etc... and go to town for the price of vegetables. But you would have to step into my world and see the out and out disasters foisted on the American public for the purpose what boils down, basically, to a farm subsidy.

We have to get bio that doesn't ruin engines..If biodiesel is the way of the future, then we are going to have to loosen up some emission standards or tighten up the quality of the bio or better yet, BOTH. That has always been a real question for me.

The Biodiesel guys play both sides of the fence. They talk renewable resource, yet most of them are defeating the EPA devices on their vehicles. Isn't that like Al Gore flying a Gulfstream jet to a Global Warming convention? Mostly, those working bio are more interested in cheap fuel. WVO, and should know what a limited amount of that there is to go around. Check what happened the last time Diesel got in the range of $4. The restaurants started charging people to carry away what used to be free.

AND UNDERSTAND, I AM IN FAVOR OF RENEWABLE RESOURCES! Just not ones that are taking out our newer engines. We can rebuild VE injector pumps. We can clean out pintel-type or two-stage Bosch injectors, Which, by the way, Thaddeus, you are driving... and those will eventually become obsolete. Look how hard it is to come up with a mechanical VE pump...Your way of the future is going to become Christmas Past. If you want to be driving a 15-year old car, be my guest, but the same crowd that is breaking the bank for farmers to sell beans for fuel, are the same ones that are making obsolete your very car!

As for the 'way of the future', you obviously haven't seen what it takes for the US to remove itself from the OPEC tit... Of the available arable land, there is not enough to produce anything but a monetary dip in our fuel needs (of course, there is the argument, some is better than nothing..). The more 'crops for fuel' we create, the higher the dual purpose, food/ fuel crops will go. I think we should eat our corn and the Mid-Easterner's should drink their oil.

More simply said, unless the market removes the glycerine, we are in for a very rough ride in the modern injector world. Ask any diesel injector professional. The crap we are currently calling fuel is putting a lot of diesel engines on the sidelines. Yay for injector sales... they going up and it is a growth market!
 
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donDavide

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Location
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Isn't Gylcerine removed in making BioDiesel? It is the WVO where it is not removed.Am I wrong? Much of the cooking oil in the country is converted to BioD, especially in this area, people pay restaurants to remove it, Some companies steal it and so on.
 
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MichaelB

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Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
TDI
2014 Passat SE DSG
Don't get me wrong. I am looking forward to the day that we can all grow our own patch of soybeans, canola, sunflowers, etc... and go to town for the price of vegetables. But you would have to step into my world and see the out and out disasters foisted on the American public for the purpose what boils down, basically, to a farm subsidy.

We have to get bio that doesn't ruin engines..If biodiesel is the way of the future, then we are going to have to loosen up some emission standards or tighten up the quality of the bio or better yet, BOTH. That has always been a real question for me.

The Biodiesel guys play both sides of the fence. They talk renewable resource, yet most of them are defeating the EPA devices on their vehicles. Isn't that like Al Gore flying a Gulfstream jet to a Global Warming convention? Mostly, those working bio are more interested in cheap fuel. WVO, and should know what a limited amount of that there is to go around. Check what happened the last time Diesel got in the range of $4. The restaurants started charging people to carry away what used to be free.

AND UNDERSTAND, I AM IN FAVOR OF RENEWABLE RESOURCES! Just not ones that are taking out our newer engines. We can rebuild VE injector pumps. We can clean out pintel-type or two-stage Bosch injectors, Which, by the way, Thaddeus, you are driving... and those will eventually become obsolete. Look how hard it is to come up with a mechanical VE pump...Your way of the future is going to become Christmas Past. If you want to be driving a 15-year old car, be my guest, but the same crowd that is breaking the bank for farmers to sell beans for fuel, are the same ones that are making obsolete your very car!

As for the 'way of the future', you obviously haven't seen what it takes for the US to remove itself from the OPEC tit... Of the available arable land, there is not enough to produce anything but a monetary dip in our fuel needs (of course, there is the argument, some is better than nothing..). The more 'crops for fuel' we create, the higher the dual purpose, food/ fuel crops will go. I think we should eat our corn and the Mid-Easterner's should drink their oil.

More simply said, unless the market removes the glycerine, we are in for a very rough ride in the modern injector world. Ask any diesel injector professional. The crap we are currently calling fuel is putting a lot of diesel engines on the sidelines. Yay for injector sales... they going up and it is a growth market!
What separates biodiesel from straight vegetable oil is that with the use of a catalyst the glycerine is removed. And to answer the food for fuel issues.....the only thing that is removed from the seeds or beans is the oil the rest of the product is turned into a high protein meal. It is used for everything from tofu to veggie hot dogs and livestock feed. Think of everything that when you read the ingredients has soy added to it. The only thing that is burned in your car is the oil and that is not a very healthy food source anyway.
 

auntulna

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Mar 13, 2005
Location
Springfield, MO
TDI
05 GLS Passat wagon, mit panzer plate
I just saw Dr. Oz tell Oprah we should grow more grass and eat more animals, and stop subsidizing farmers.

It was on channel OZ, the one I subscribe to....


No combines needed, vote for Temple Grandin!
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I see that the negative reply comment was removed about Dr Oz.. I think that was a good move.

Regardless of the value of soy bean oil, I certainly understand DSG (not the transmission), known as Distillers Grain, which is the high protein leftovers from making ethanol. Same is not true of the soy meal. It's less valuable after process, because it's about 20% less volume, but about worth about 40% less. Soy oil is valuable or it wouldn't sell for $950 a metric ton as a commodity. compared to soy meal which is under $500mt.
It would be helpful if everybody agreed on definitions. This place is rampant with 'Imaginative definitions'. Among those are words that are virtual fabrications, used to titillate the masses; billet, forged, exclusive... all are names to lure with inventive and misleading marketing. You can include 'biodiesel to that list.

'Biodiesel' is poorly defined and can mean just about anything that will burn in a diesel engine that is NOT a petroleum based product. When you assume that it means that the glycerin is removed, you jump to an inaccurate and assumptive conclusion. Raw soy bean oil is what they add in Missouri and I doubt there are very many who take the expensive steps to REALLY make what I have to refer to as tritrated biodiesel. We have been to several plants that produce it. But the mandate for Minnisota allows the introduce a small percentage of a renewable energy source, in our state; corn squeezin's(for gasoline engines, B85 or 10% ethanol blends) or soy bean oil.. Although there may be canola, sunflower and some other vegetable oils allowed, the availability and price usually keeps the soy bean oil as the nearly exclusive product... and it is straight out of the presses, refined for solids and to remove water. So, the broad definition is to mislead users to think it is something that it is not.

Now, if you want to think your definition is vegetable oil with glycerin removed, you are going to have to do some homework. The comercial enterprises doing that are set up with large heating and conversion tanks; a somewhat complicated procedure, requiring several steps and close attention to detail...

The government allows raw vegetable oils to be added, Now, really... which method do you really think the dino-diesel wholesaler and retailer are using? Unless they can show me different, the 'glycerin removed' story, of fuel that is added to the retail diesel fuel tanks, is fiction. But you would have to not just show one or two... you would have to show me hundreds of tritration method biodiesel manufacturers that supply the volume needed to cover every diesel fuel stop. There just aren't all that many converting true biodiesel.

The tritration method is not free, but requires a heat source, Methanol, lye, and a goodly amount of time, energy and resources from the business converting the WVO and/ or raw oil to a diesel engine's compatible form. There is the problem that the raw oil costs money and the conversion process costs money. The 10,000- 20,000 gallon stainless steel tanks are typical for larger commercial setups. They are expensive.

The current spot market for raw soy bean oil is $850 per metric ton, which is 287 gallons or roughly $3 per gallon BEFORE conversion to true biodiesel. Comparing other oils, Commodity: Canola, $950, Sunflower, $127, Peanut, $1200…

So where the loosely coined ‘biodiesel’ is concerned, Soy Bean is King. The cost as I have gotten it, conversion to a viscosity of 2-3 and elimination of glycerin costs about $1.40 a gallon, so the base price, without taxes, transportation, equipment or time is currently about $4.40 per gallon, using raw soy bean oil.

Adding soy oil to the mix actually raises overall costs. The winner in this mandate is the farmer and the mechanic.
1. It inflates the soy bean market price
2. The gylcerin shortens operating life of the injector.
3. So, the injectors end up getting less fuel economy.


Do you see where this is going? If it’s a government mandate, the wholesalers can’t afford to take the glycerins out of the fuel mix for any of the stuff added ‘biodiesel’ you buy from the pump. It is NOT biodiesel as I would like a glycerin-free oil to be defined. If I had my way, we would have our ambitious law-makers devise a standard to separate raw soy bean oil from tritrated soy bean oil, or other oils that have been refined to eliminate the glycerin.

So, let's try to get some nomenclature correct...

Raw vegetable oil… Any vegetable oil that can be burned in a diesel engine, with the solids and water removed.

WVO... Waste Vegetable Oil-- Reclaimed grease or oil, usually obtained from deep fryers.

Petroleum Diesel... Otherwise known to the world as D2 or #2 Diesel. Diesel is the product that most all modern automotive diesel engines are intended to run on… a petroleum based product.

Biodiesel… What this should mean… Renewable resource vegetable oil that has been altered to remove the glycerin, solids, water and has the viscosity corrected to match #2 diesel’s weight.

Give me THAT Biodiesel, the way I define it and I’ll burn it in my car…when it is competitively priced compared to Petroleum Diesel.
 
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whitedog

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2004
Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
2004 Jetta that I fill by myself
Here in Central Oregon, we often get a cold snap here (around zero) and the school busses will often gel up. Of course they blame the B5 mandate on the gelling, but if Minnesota can deal with B5 through their much colder winters, why can't these 1D10ts?

Actually I should ask, "How does Minnesota deal with the cold temperatures with their B5 mandate?
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
WD,

All cold-weather states have winterized blends. That is the oil refinery's excuse for jacking the price twice a year. They get you both ways when they switch from 'summer' to 'winter' fuel.

Being wizened with cold weather diesel, we used to add about 1/2gallon of gasoline to ten gallons of diesel for winter use. That was enough to keep it from gelling in all but the most severe situations. And no, it didn't ever seize an engine. Nowadays, the fuel is delivered 'winterized'.
 

whitedog

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Location
Bend, Oregon
TDI
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I know about winterized fuel and we get it here but they still have trouble here every year. I just cant see any reason these knuckleheads have trouble other than their own incompetence.
 

MichaelB

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Location
SE Wisconsin
TDI
2014 Passat SE DSG
I see that the negative reply comment was removed about Dr Oz.. I think that was a good move.

Regardless of the value of soy bean oil, I certainly understand DSG (not the transmission), known as Distillers Grain, which is the high protein leftovers from making ethanol. Same is not true of the soy meal. It's less valuable after process, because it's about 20% less volume, but about worth about 40% less. Soy oil is valuable or it wouldn't sell for $950 a metric ton as a commodity. compared to soy meal which is under $500mt.
It would be helpful if everybody agreed on definitions. This place is rampant with 'Imaginative definitions'. Among those are words that are virtual fabrications, used to titillate the masses; billet, forged, exclusive... all are names to lure with inventive and misleading marketing. You can include 'biodiesel to that list.

'Biodiesel' is poorly defined and can mean just about anything that will burn in a diesel engine that is NOT a petroleum based product. When you assume that it means that the glycerin is removed, you jump to an inaccurate and assumptive conclusion. Raw soy bean oil is what they add in Missouri and I doubt there are very many who take the expensive steps to REALLY make what I have to refer to as tritrated biodiesel. We have been to several plants that produce it. But the mandate for Minnisota allows the introduce a small percentage of a renewable energy source, in our state; corn squeezin's(for gasoline engines, B85 or 10% ethanol blends) or soy bean oil.. Although there may be canola, sunflower and some other vegetable oils allowed, the availability and price usually keeps the soy bean oil as the nearly exclusive product... and it is straight out of the presses, refined for solids and to remove water. So, the broad definition is to mislead users to think it is something that it is not.

Now, if you want to think your definition is vegetable oil with glycerin removed, you are going to have to do some homework. The comercial enterprises doing that are set up with large heating and conversion tanks; a somewhat complicated procedure, requiring several steps and close attention to detail...

The government allows raw vegetable oils to be added, Now, really... which method do you really think the dino-diesel wholesaler and retailer are using? Unless they can show me different, the 'glycerin removed' story, of fuel that is added to the retail diesel fuel tanks, is fiction. But you would have to not just show one or two... you would have to show me hundreds of tritration method biodiesel manufacturers that supply the volume needed to cover every diesel fuel stop. There just aren't all that many converting true biodiesel.

The tritration method is not free, but requires a heat source, Methanol, lye, and a goodly amount of time, energy and resources from the business converting the WVO and/ or raw oil to a diesel engine's compatible form. There is the problem that the raw oil costs money and the conversion process costs money. The 10,000- 20,000 gallon stainless steel tanks are typical for larger commercial setups. They are expensive.

The current spot market for raw soy bean oil is $850 per metric ton, which is 287 gallons or roughly $3 per gallon BEFORE conversion to true biodiesel. Comparing other oils, Commodity: Canola, $950, Sunflower, $127, Peanut, $1200…

So where the loosely coined ‘biodiesel’ is concerned, Soy Bean is King. The cost as I have gotten it, conversion to a viscosity of 2-3 and elimination of glycerin costs about $1.40 a gallon, so the base price, without taxes, transportation, equipment or time is currently about $4.40 per gallon, using raw soy bean oil.

Adding soy oil to the mix actually raises overall costs. The winner in this mandate is the farmer and the mechanic.
1. It inflates the soy bean market price
2. The gylcerin shortens operating life of the injector.
3. So, the injectors end up getting less fuel economy.


Do you see where this is going? If it’s a government mandate, the wholesalers can’t afford to take the glycerins out of the fuel mix for any of the stuff added ‘biodiesel’ you buy from the pump. It is NOT biodiesel as I would like a glycerin-free oil to be defined. If I had my way, we would have our ambitious law-makers devise a standard to separate raw soy bean oil from tritrated soy bean oil, or other oils that have been refined to eliminate the glycerin.

So, let's try to get some nomenclature correct...

Raw vegetable oil… Any vegetable oil that can be burned in a diesel engine, with the solids and water removed.

WVO... Waste Vegetable Oil-- Reclaimed grease or oil, usually obtained from deep fryers.

Petroleum Diesel... Otherwise known to the world as D2 or #2 Diesel. Diesel is the product that most all modern automotive diesel engines are intended to run on… a petroleum based product.

Biodiesel… What this should mean… Renewable resource vegetable oil that has been altered to remove the glycerin, solids, water and has the viscosity corrected to match #2 diesel’s weight.

Give me THAT Biodiesel, the way I define it and I’ll burn it in my car…when it is competitively priced compared to Petroleum Diesel.
Much ado but nothing definitive about Minnesota blending raw vegetable oil in the fuel sold there...........just speculation and that YOU think they are. Biodiesel by definition is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel. Waste animal fats are used too so it is not always vegetable oils.
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/ar...etails-on-year-long-heartland-flyer-b20-trial
Any fat can be used to produce Biodiesel. I don't think you could just filter and dewater bacon grease. Also the glycerin obtained in the process has monetary value. As to the Dr. Oz thing ask any real doctor how they feel about that shyster. I removed because it really didn't pertain to this discussion (and you brought it back). And the previous one is still there. Just because you are a diesel mechanic doesn't make you an expert on diesel fuel, bio blends or doctors.
 
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