06 TDI Engine Knocking

Hello everyone,

I'm hoping that someone could ease my mind a little bit. I bought my 06 TDI used last September with just over 160k on the computer. I had a few items that needed repair, so this is what I did in the year that I have had it:

-Had a fault code (can't remember the code) = Replaced ASV
-Replaced DMF (mis-diagnosis; had loud noise only in gear, turned out to be serp. belt tensioner and/or alt. pulley.)
-Replaced Serp Belt & Tensioner & Alt Pulley
-Added the missing belly pan to hopefully muffle the sound of the engine a bit
-Oil change (switched to Mobil 1 TDT -- Figured I was out of warranty, and I have heard good things about the TDT wear protection vs 505.01.) This was done maybe about 2 weeks ago)
-Diesel Purge (2 weeks ago)

Since I bought the car, it was noticeably 'knocky' when accelerating. I'm not sure if this is the nature of the BRM engine, or if I am missing something big. Even in Park or Neutral as well as in-gear, when RPM's increase, the loudness/speed of the 'knock' increases, until the next gear is hit and the RPM's drop again. It all seems to level off when I get to about 4th gear, but it may just be that the road noise is drowning out the knocking. At idle, it seemed to improve when I changed oil, but when accelerating it is about the same. I compared it today to a newer (2007-2010) Jetta that seemed to have a quieter, smoother idle. Even at acceleration, it had a smooth noise and not the knocking/clicking that mine makes.

Here is a YouTube video that is similar to the noise I am hearing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nkcxJ9bheI
The resemblance that I hear is that high 'click-click-click' type noise in the video as opposed to a smooth low rumble of a diesel.

They suggest possibly bad injectors, pistons or engine bearings in the comments and I'm really hoping that's not the case.

Before I bought the car (about 130k), there were a few items replaced/repaired such as the cam, and timing belt (along with idlers/pulleys, etc that go along with it) so I think I can eliminate worn cam as the culprit.

I'm hoping someone says its just the nature of the engine and I could ignore it. The fact that I don't have any fault codes and it actually has improved since I bought the car is a good sign, but I just want to make sure. If need be, I can record my own engine noise and upload it to YouTube for a more accurate diagnosis.

Thank you everyone in advance. I really appreciate any help that is provided!

MT

That sounds like a cam to me. Check the sound at the exhaust, it will have a bupping noise if it is going. I replaced my cam at 85k. It was probably gone at 60k. One hour will confirm it for you.

If your cam is still good I would check the compression. A low cylinder could indicate a a bad valve.

If you can ge in touch with someone who has VCDS you can check your injector deviation at idle which could indicate an injector problem.

Good luck

Bryan

If the cam was replaced at 130K, then it should be fine yet. But, depending on who did the work, etc, they may not have replaced everything that should have been replaced. A quick cam cover removal and inspection will answer a lot of top end questions. Then, as bquick said, check for compression and injector deviation.

Injector issues are not common on these cars. I go along with the camshaft/lifter/follower suggestion to check.

Guys ... thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I really appreciate it! So I did a little bit more looking. My paperwork shows that the cam, cam seal, lifters, followers and cam bearings were all done at 136,500. At the same time, the Timing Belt, Tensioner (although they used the BEW tensioner), water pump and idler were done too. They also replaced the O2 sensor, "gasket"?, and turbo tubing at that time too.

So I started to wonder, is it the engine that is knocking or something else? Well, I uploaded two different videos to YouTube. One was on a cold start and immediate rev. I also listened near the tailpipe for the telltale thunking of the bad lifter heard all through the exhaust.

The Cold Start video can be found here: http://youtu.be/kwb0PvdLfy0

The other video is on a warm start just idling. As I was recording the second video, I started realizing that the knocking/clicking is actually coming from the Timing Belt area, which is where and why I am pointing towards the end of the video. I listened in around the top of the engine cover (should have probably removed the cover prior to recording), and even put my phone close to a few areas of the head and couldn't hear any of the loud knocking I hear when accelerating until I got close to the Timing Belt area.

The Warm Start video can be found here: http://youtu.be/r8wMmzMwYL4

Maybe you guys could have a look/listen and put my mind at ease or at least give me confirmation of your initial thoughts.

Again, I really appreciate you guys taking your time to take a look for me.

Thanks everyone!

MT

One thing I noticed on the warm start video is that the timing belt cover looks like it has a hole in it. It makes me think the previous timing belt failed possibly causing internal damage to the engine. If the hole is new then you should have the timing belt checked asap because it could be coming apart.

I think the noise could be coming from a rocker arm that has come loose, the only way to check that is to remove the valve cover and inspect the cam, lifters and rocker arms for problems.

Thanks mu3098. Yeah, that was one of the first things I noticed when I started peeking in the engine bay when I went to look at the car. The timing belt cover was chewed up like that from the time I went to look at it, which caused me to suspect that it was the reason it was traded into the dealer who sold it to the owner prior to me. It's the only logical reason for the mechanic slip to have about $3000 worth of work done to it prior to selling.

I'm hoping that it is nothing serious internally with the engine, that's why I went to the experts (here) The strange thing is that the loud 'ticking' or knocking that I hear is right near the top of the timing belt. Would a loose rocker arm be heard that far over to the left? It's also strange that they ripped the whole cam apart, replaced everything and then left a shoddy rocker arm. It has been this way since I picked it up, but always thought it was just how 'loud a diesel is.' Viewing a few more threads/videos, it definitely sounds like it is cam-related and specifically rocker arm related, but it's just odd that when I put my ear down to the engine cover, it SEEMS it is directly over the timing belt area.

I'm not a mechanic, but I enjoy tinkering. Is a cam, lifter and rocker arm inspection something that is relatively easy to do? I saw a how-to on myturbodiesel.com I believe on how to get into the cam area, but I'm not sure I'd know what to be looking for. Maybe something for an actual mechanic and not a wanna-be

Thanks again for all of your help thus far everyone!

Engine noise can fool you and sound like its coming from different places. If the car experienced a timing belt failure, the cylinder head takes the brunt of the carnage. The pistons may get hit with the valves, causing a failure later on if valves are not replaced. Take the car to a TDI Guru near you (see the list of them here) and have them evaluate it. If you are near Port Jervis, there is a really good one there.

Thanks aja8888...I'm in PA (about 2hr north of Philly), so the closest TDI Guru that I know is MetalMan or Mair's Continental. I'm not sure whether or not the car ever had experienced timing belt failure, but I would caution on error and say that it has judging by the maintenance history and the TB cover being damaged.

I'm hoping it is nothing serious since conditions have not worsened in the year that I have driven the car and actually showed signs of improvement after the oil change.

Thanks again for everyone's help and if anyone else has anything to add, I would really appreciate that as well!

Cheers,
MT

Remove the TB cover ASAP and inspect what's going on there.

Thanks again everyone for your input. I did post on the myturbodiesel forums with the same question to get more eyes & ears on it and they suggested the same as bquick by doing a compression test and checking my cam timing. I guess I'll need to get my hands on a VCDS from someone or schedule an appointment with a guru. I'm hoping that it turns out to be a minor problem like a cam adjustment. Just something that isn't too costly

Thanks again everyone!

Well to keep everyone updated, I visited a VW specialist today. He looked everything over and confirmed that there is definitely a 'tick', but checked over all of the modules he normally would and did not see anything out-of-the-norm with cylinders, etc. He did ask what type of oil I am using and I told him that the previous owner used Amsoil Euro blend and I just switched (about 2-3k ago) to Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck. He said that the pump duse engines are really particular about oil.

We are going to try using the VW specified oil (I believe he said 505.02, which I hadn't heard of--unless he said 502.00 and I mis-heard him) and run it for a few hundred miles and see if it improves. He said that the VW oil actually has an additive in it for the PD cams to better lubricate them.

He thinks the tick is on the 4th cylinder (one furthest from the timing belt area), so I was way off (really glad I consulted with him).

He did make a really good point that when I changed from Amsoil (505.01) to M1 TDT, it improved, so it very well may be a oil issue. His other suggestion was that it is something with the valve, whether it be the valve sticking and then slapping when it lets loose or something else. He also suggested it is possible that the oil pump is weak, not pumping enough oil all the way through the cam and making it tick.

Either way, I'm sure this thread will be quiet over the next few weeks/months until I get to the bottom of it, but I will keep everyone updated.

Feel free to contribute to the thread at any time if you guys have anything else to add.

As always, I surely do appreciate everything you all do.

Cheers,
MT

I just listened to the youtube videos for the first time. I don't think it's an oil issue. Mobile 1 TDT is one of the best oils you can run in these things. I ran it before my cam job (cam was toast before I ran the TDT) but now run Schaeffer b/c of cam warranty. The spec is 505.01, so I'm not sure about the 505.02 or 502 that the VW specialist told you. The biggest issue seems to be weight -- you want to make sure it's a 5w40 oil - some have had luck with 15w40 conventional oils - but 5w40 synthetics are really good. But again, from the sound, I doubt oil will be a cure.

15 minutes is all you need to remove the valve cover. It think it might provide some answers. When they replaced cam / lifters, it would have been important to look at many things, including where the fuel rockers touch the injector plungers -- there is kind of a "ball" there that needs to be smooth. I would think if that was bad it could also make noise. Also, the timing cover comes of in about 3 minutes (have to take the ASV-intercooler hose off first). That might also help answer some questions. Forgive me if you said you already did that -- I caught myself up on the thread quickly.

I'm in Lebanon and willing to offer some free help sometime if you'd like the help. I'm not sure where north of Philly you are and how far away. I'm by no means an expert -- have had my TDI for only 10 months, but I replaced my cam / lifters / timing belt in March and after 11k miles, all seems well.

Unfortunately, I don't (yet) have VCDS so can't help with the timing torsion value. Did the VW mechanic specialist give you any help with that?

Keep us up to date -- would love to hear that BRM run a little smoother than that.

Hello,

I would agree that I have heard really good things about the M1 TDT in regards to wear-protection vs VW 505.01. The VW-specialist actually said the book is wrong in suggesting 505.01, because it should take a different spec but I'm just going off of his advice currently.

I'm going to be getting a case of the 'approved' oil tomorrow and trying an oil change. Breaks my heart, because I just changed to the TDT about 2k ago but I'll try it just to eliminate it from the equation.

I'm going to run it for a bit with the new spec oil and see if it improves. The specialist's theory was since it improved by changing to TDT (which it actually did significantly improve at idle it seemed), then it's worth trying the 'approved' oil as a cheap simple fix before ripping the valve cover apart and shooting in the dark if there is no visible cam damage.

We will see how it goes, but I intend on keeping everyone posted with what is going on. Not sure if it will ever be helpful to any other members, but hopefully it will. Maybe then someone who is much more savvy than me can make repairs on their own without having to rely on their fellow TDI guru's in the forums (like me).

Again, thanks to everyone for your help/advice.

Cheers,
MT

Another update for everyone. The Dub-specialist got me my oil today..turned out to be Castrol SLX OE 5w30, which is 502.00/505.01 -- the same as the Amsoil that was in the car before I changed over to TDT (except that was 5w40 and this is 5w30).

I changed the oil per his recommendation, but notice no difference after changing. He did say to run the car for quite a few miles before any noticeable changes will happen, so we will see.

I'm hoping the 30wt oil doesn't take out or further damage my cam. I'm thinking worst case scenario I will run the 30wt for one oil change just to eliminate it from the equation then switch back to TDT if nothing changes. My only speculation with the 30wt, is that he suggested possible a valve sticking and slapping when it hits the bottom of the cylinder. Is it possible that a lighter weight oil (5w30 vs 5w40) would be thin enough to loosen that valve up and prevent it from sticking?

I would really like to get the valve cover off just to see what is going on. He kind of scared me a bit though and said that any time the valve cover comes off, you need to replace the seal, make sure the cover goes back on carefully, then torque the bolts down to a specific torque (I don't have a torque wrench ..yet) so all of that has me concerned. Then I'm sure I would get the cover off and not know what to look for anyways, even with the helpful "how-to's" on checking for cam wear.

Regardless, I wanted to give everyone an update as I have promised Hopefully upcoming updates will be better news for me and more informative for you all.

As always, keep the comments coming because I really do appreciate everyone's help.

Cheers,
MT

MT:

Please do not use that oil for any length of time. Results are PROVEN to be better with 5W 40 TDT or any good 505.01 oil.

Get another Dub-specialist.

Good luck.

Tony

Have you inspected your cam yet? If not, that would be the very first thing to do before I changed my oil back to the TDT, Shaeffer 9K, Rotella T6, or Pentosin or any other good 505.01 oil.

The Castrol 5W30 will kill your cam if it is still good.

Seriously, inspect your cam and lifters.

Get a compression test. If your TB failed, your head could have problems. The compression test will indicate unresolved problems related to a TB failure which can range from bent valves and rods to damaged pistons.

aja8888 said:

MT:

Please do not use that oil for any length of time. Results are PROVEN to be better with 5W 40 TDT or any good 505.01 oil.

Get another Dub-specialist.

Good luck.

Tony

Click to expand...

+1^

D-Cell_Mekanick said:

+1^

Click to expand...

+2, your "specialist" is not special enough.

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the feedback. I intend on getting the cam checked within the next few miles. Something has to be causing the 'tick'.

After reviewing some of the paperwork on the car, I think I ruled out the timing belt failure prior to buying but at this point it is just speculation. You are all right; the only way to get to the bottom of it is to pull the valve cover off and take a look inside. I thought having him check with the VCDS would rule out any serious issues like bent rods, etc. He said if there were bent rods, it would most likely be missing but again it's only speculation at this point until the valve cover is removed and examined.

Thanks again for all of your help.

One last questions: Would it be detrimental to run the Castrol for 10k just for this interval? The local VW dealership here ONLY carries that in stock for my model, which is really odd.

Anyways, I really appreciate everyone's help.

Thanks everyone!
MT

If you are going to inspect your cam in the next 100 miles, I would hold off on the oil.

If your cam is still good, I would go to Walmart and buy some Rotella T6, or Autozone for some TDT on the way home.

If you plan on waiting to inspect your cam, I would park my car and get the oil.

IMHO.

Thanks Bquick; I ran the old Rotella T (which I believe was the precursor to T6) in my '01 1.8t. I'm sure this is a whole different discussion and have seen many other posts comparing the two, but which of the two do you all prefer? TDT or T6? I've heard mixed reviews, but none of them bad. "T6 has SLIGHTLY better wear protection" or visa versa. Just curious what everyone else recommends.

I took 'er for a ride yesterday. Roughly 20 miles or so, just to warm the engine. Surprisingly the engine was pretty quiet when I got back and it was sitting at idle. Just before I started the post I took a long trip down to the beach and I may be crazy but the engine seems quieter when warm after the 1000+ mile trip. With the hood open and standing on the passenger side, I couldn't even really hear the 'tick' unless I listened for it. On the drivers side it was more evident and of course when I accelerated I could hear it ticking. At cold it was miserably 'ticky' much worse than with the TDT (made me nervous) .

All-in-all, I'm optimistic since the 'tick' has been the same since I got the car, never got worse and actually showed signs of improvement when switching to TDT and after the long haul to the beach. I would think if it was something really bad, it would slowly get worse and worse, but I may just be trying too hard to be optimistic

As always, I really appreciate everyone's help and advice.

I'll keep everyone posted.

MT

mu3098 said:

One thing I noticed on the warm start video is that the timing belt cover looks like it has a hole in it. It makes me think the previous timing belt failed possibly causing internal damage to the engine.I think the noise could be coming from a rocker arm that has come loose, the only way to check that is to remove the valve cover and inspect the cam, lifters and rocker arms for problems.

Click to expand...

After listening to how bad the Videos sounded, I would tend to agree.

It is very possible that the T/B failed causing valve to piston contact and the cam, lifters and T/B were changed without removing the head to replaced the damaged valve(s).

Folks have done this and have had valves drop heads because the valve to piston contact didn't bend a valve enough to cause poor sealing (engine ran fine) but the impact(s) did cause stress were valve stems attaches to valve head which lead to valve failure several thousand miles later.

If this was the case, then removing the valve cover would not show much of this kind of damage because the spider webbed (shattered) lifters and damaged cam were already replaced. To check for damaged valves at this point, you would have to either remove the head or bore scope through the glow plug holes and look for valve dents in the top of pistons.

Also,it could be that one or more of the injector rockers is not adjusted correctly, has missing parts or is damaged somehow and making the noise or, perhaps a lifter is not pumping up or not getting enough oil pressure.

The mechanic you found pretty much wasted your time with changing the oil. The first thing he should have done, after making sure the oil level, oil weight and pressure seemed O.K., was to remove the valve cover to further investigate.

Does sound like your on the right track and going to the competent TDI mechanics that you last posted....................

Eventually, you'll need to replace the camshaft and lifters. When you do, DON"T install another oem cam. See Franko6 for his cam kit.

BRMs are great engines for modding, but they have faulty cams, like the BEW engine also.

df

tramic86- I think before the oil related thought is given up on there is a few possibilities not mentioned. A collapsed lifter that was probably bad from the start. The hydraulic piston has only .025 movement and even collapsed there may still only be .012-.020 clearance and would definitely sound better with heavier oil.

The other possibility is injector shaft end oil passage plug is missing. This is supposed to be a permanent plug but falls out. This is happening quite often. See this link #169 but there are others that show the location better. Use a round diameter flat drift about 1/32 to 3/64 smaller and sharply restrike each plug. The soft aluminum will expand or swage. Make sure you see displacement of aluminum but it is not necessary to destroy it.

Another update for everyone. So the valve cover was removed today and examined. From what I was told, all of the bolts across the entire cam have a very specific torque setting. Well, some of those bolts were torqued down WAY past what they were supposed to be. The guy loosening the bolts had to put his whole body into it to break the bolts loose. Also, all of the bolts that SHOULD have been replaced when the Cam was done, never were replaced. He explained that these are 'stretch' bolts and really should be replaced because they stretch and need to be used basically once. From that, he re-torqued everything down (until we get the new parts) and we fired it up. It definitely seemed a nudge quieter after having it torqued down correctly, but there is still a knock. He suggested getting new cam bearings and bolts along with a new valve cover (that wasn't replaced last time when it was removed).

Another thing I noticed within VCDS (I picked up a copy) is that my torsion value seems off. I told him that the value was at a 2.0, but I was wrong. I looked again and it's NEGATIVE 2.0 at idle and fluctuates down to -2.5 under load. I don't notice a lumpy idle or anything that would indicate that I have retarded timing. I imagine that the shop who originally did the timing belt/cam shaft/dmf replacement never used a VAG or VCDS tool to properly adjust the timing. Likewise, they torqued things down way more than they should have. Would the retarded timing cause any engine noise?

Either way, I believe I'm going to run the car and see if I notice it being any quieter, but will eventually sink the money into some new bearings, cam bolts, rocker bolts and a valve gasket. He explained that from the bolts being tightened down so much, that the bearings could be shot. I could see that.

All-in-all, he was extremely helpful today and provided much more insightful info.

Anyways, I just wanted to give everyone an update and maybe you all can educate me on the retarded timing and diagnosis today.

Thanks again everyone,
MT.

Hello again everyone,

Sorry for the thread revival on my own thread, but I have some new light shed on my mysterious knock. I did have a well-known guru near me check the knock. Very great person to work with and was extremely helpful. They started by checking oil pressure and confirmed everything looked good with that. Next, they pulled the oil pan, and a few bearing caps and checked one or two of the main/rod bearings for abnormal wear. Thankfully everything seemed to have normal wear there as well.

Next, they pulled the valve cover and checked everything over there. They said the cam showed normal wear and overall looked good and the only thing that was off was a rocker adjustment. I guess you tighten it down and then back it off a bit. Well, the shop that did the work prior to me buying the car never backed them off at all, just tightened them down and that was it.

The guru's suggestion was to keep driving the car and not be afraid of the noise or prevent me from driving it. They felt that if it was something like bent valves or the likes, it would have quit by now and this is a noise that even the previous owners were chasing for quite a while. I was content with that answer. Also, they suggested having the lifters replaced when I get the timing belt done, since they were replaced, but with the non-nitrated lifters. Either way, I left with my mind at ease thinking that it may be serious, but not too serious to drive. They also suggested that I drive it until the noise changes or something different happens to help try to pinpoint the issue.

That leads me into my next part; I was driving to work about a week ago and made an interesting discovery. When I pull a hard right-hand turn, I notice that the knock subsides to nearly inaudible. I can still BARELY hear it while pulling the hard right turn (must be moving at about 30mph or so). As soon as I straighten the wheel out and being going straight and/or going around a turn on the opposite side, I immediately hear the knocking noise return to its normal volume. This is consistent and I can reproduce any time.

That said, I know the rockers have plugs at each end of the shaft to plug the oil passageways. I also am aware that these plugs often lose their fit and can fall out fairly easily if removing the rockers.

My question is, is it possible that I lost one (or more) of these plugs? The fact that the noise nearly subsides completely around a hard right-hand turn is hopeful. Common sense seems to tell me that it would be the plug on the drivers side, since pulling a right-hand turn would cause gravity to pull more oil to that side when it quiets. I also do not think that if the plug fell out, it's in my engine anywhere or that could have caused some big time issues also. I imagine when the shop who did all the work prior to me buying the car pulled the rockers out, lost the plugs in the transfer, and then put them back unknowingly without the plugs at the end.

Am I pretty far off-base here? I'm only theorizing, but it almost seems like its losing oil somewhere or a passageway somewhere is blocked. I direct-messaged James & Son (above) who tends to agree and thinks that it is likely a collapsed lifter likely caused by the plug at the end of the shaft falling out. He suggested pulling the valve cover and boxing each cylinder off with cardboard, starting the engine and seeing if I have oil pissing out of either end of the rocker shafts (or in the middle where they meet). Is it possible to do this without getting oil everywhere?? He suggested that I can let it run safely for about 30 seconds, but will have oil pissing out immediately if I have lost a plug. I wanted to post in the general forum to not only get feedback, but hopefully help someone else who may be in the same boat as me.

If you all think I did lose a plug, what would be the remediation to this? Is it a matter of just replacing the rocker shaft(s) that are missing the plugs, or do things get more complicated than that?

I really appreciate everyone's help here. I love my TDI and really want to get it back to a healthy state.

Any help/advice is GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks everyone!
MT

Slight lateral g-force is peanuts compared to engine oil pressure.

Engine mounts?

You checked oil pressure( by guru). I now have listened to the engine cold video where you rev the engine and the lifters remain tottally collapsed. There is no such thing as non-nitrided( silver vs black) lifters as far as I know since 2006-2009. Do you have a part number for those lifters. Replace them with the right lifter and your problem is solved. Turning and the sound going away is a strange co-incidence but definitely this is something related to the lifters not operating properly( Edit:not caused by as GoFaster points out). I was wrong when i said there was only .025 hydraulic adjustment. If you are patient enough and you squeeze with a clamp they will collapse a full .100 inch. How can anybody say its ok to drive like that. In the video he walks around to the back of the car and you can still here it. I can not hear my engine once under way but he can. Find out the part number for those lifters.
Something is very wrong with the lifters.

Edit: here is another way to check totally collapsed lifters. When you remove the valve cover take a feeler gage and check the cam closed dwell to lifter clearance. It is hard to get them in there but it is possible. Normal lifters if left over night will collapse slightly and you can't get more than .008 thousands of an inch clearance. If you have totally collapsed lifters you will get closer to .06 to .100 in.

Edit#2: I just read your post above. By all means post any information or suggestions I have provided. Just remember it is easy to make errors on information provided but when you walked to the back of the car that was abnormal sound, it is ultimately up to you to make the final decision on what to do but from reading most of the posts I would say your getting pretty good advise from everyone that i have read but your the one that has to put into the proper context and this requires very careful analysis of all the details. For example does your car have the lower plastic engine cover in place. If it does then the noise at the back of the car is definitely abnormal.

Plan replacing your cam and adjusting the injector lash shortly. If someone replaced the lifters and reused the old cam the lifters and the cam will wear out very shortly. This is a flat-tappet system, reusing anything here does not work. Proven.

Also, adjust the injector lash properly. This is critical or you will damage the injectors. They cost $$$$.

What does it mean 'cam has got normal wear'? Normal wear on BRM means it's worn out completely by 100k.