TDC Timing marks off: advise needed

Hi, After reading a dozen threads, I just wanted a bit of clarification.
Car is a 99.5 tdi golf manual 250K
I am in the process of starting to change the timing belt. I read the how to a few times over.
My issues is when the cam lock is installed, my ip slot is half out of the window and my crank tdc mark is 'almost' not visible.
pics of the crank markings

way off to the right.

pics of the cam


pics of the ip window

I was planning on removing the cam locking plate
breaking the cam sprocket loose
reinstall cam lock plate, so the cam stays in the right spot
rotating crank over till marks line up
install crank locking plate, then follow the rest of the TB procedure.
Now, my question is if my timing was that far off, could this lead to drivability issues later. I had a reoccurring CEL that said the start of injection pump timing was off. It would pop up when accelerating with a load. I would lose power until i lifted the throttle, then reapplied the throttle. Annoying while trying to drive up a hill. I would be lifting and applying the throttle all the way up every 10-15 seconds...
My timing belt was changed by a shop that no longer exists, so asking them how they set it or if they messed up is no longer an option. Also the same shop failed to torque or reused the old engine mount bolts, as one sheared off, breaking the ear off the block and break the other bolts, so the whole engine fell sideways in the compartment.
They "fixed" it by replace two of the three bolts, but never mentioned the issue about the block to me. I only noticed when i went to remove the engine mount bolt that did not exist.
So it comes as no surprise that the timing is a bit off as well.

I would remove cam lock, rotate crank to line up TDC marks, then lock crank. I bet that line up the pump. Pull timing belt then lock cam, loosen can sprocket and pop it loose for reinstalling the new belt. Search for block repairs, yours isn't the first with a broken bolt.

Did you check the timing before you started just to see where it was?

Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I wanted to check everything before got too far into the procedure.
I also thought it might explain my cel, which coincidentally happened right after i had the belt serviced.

I found the block repair kit and have it installed, so i can install the three new bolts.

Leave the cam lock! Just get the belt off and adjust the crank and IP. After you proceed like normal.

Yup, one of the main purposes of the timing belt procedure is to re-establish the correct timing, from whatever it was before, who ever did it before.

So, don't worry that it's off... start fresh, get everything to be perfectly on TDC as you change the belt, per the HOW-TO.

BTW, your picture(s) are exactly why many folks think "mark-and-pray" (ie just mark the position of everything, remove the old belt, install the new belt) is a dangerous shortcut... if you do that you're relying on the timing being right when you start. Clearly your's wasn't... good thing you checked and are doing the job right.

Your timing isn't that far off - not good though.

Keep cam lock in

Remove belt after untensioning

Move IP by centre bolt until you can get pin in - so that you can move it easily in and out

Get flywheel mark centered - crank centre bolt

Now you are with the procedure where you can do a correct install. Follow Vince Wladon's advice.

(Mark and pray errors are cumulative, every time you do not follow the correct procedure, timing gets worse)

Jettascuba said:

Your timing isn't that far off - not good though.

Keep cam lock in

Remove belt after untensioning

Move IP by centre bolt until you can get pin in - so that you can move it easily in and out

Get flywheel mark centered - crank centre bolt

Now you are with the procedure where you can do a correct install. Follow Vince Wladon's advice.

(Mark and pray errors are cumulative, every time you do not follow the correct procedure, timing gets worse)

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The only problem with that is they need to break the cam gear loose from the cam. It's much safer to do that with the cam lock removed or your risk breaking it end of the cam (vacuum pump drive end). Cam pulley needs to be loose to correctly tension after everything is aligned.

Don't use the cam lock to hold it! You will bend the flat metal..

Take the old timing belt and wrap it around the sprocket and the back over and under the top idler. Take the tail and go back to the sprocket and use vise grips to lock it in place on the sprocket. That will keep the sprocket from moving.

Generally agree with lots of good advice above. Seems that Vince (#5) did a good job of putting it clearly in few words. And #8 x2... the cam lock is used for fixing / holding location of the camshaft, and NOT for holding against torque (such as, while loosening or tightening the cam sprocket bolt). Not only risk of "bending flat metal", but also risk breaking the camshaft itself.

Sometimes people have trouble just locating the flywheel TDC marks. But you have that nailed.

At the risk of rambling, some additional notes / thoughts...

[1] Kudos to you for doing the homework ahead of time. That is, perhaps, more than half the battle. As mentioned above, just follow the process to get the new components installed correctly.

[2] Speaking of new components... make sure you are installing the full list of new components (which means rotating devices AND hardware...), and that the components you have are from a known reputable vendor. Unfortunately, there is at least one known vendor of unreliable problematic stuff.

[3] In your pic of the installed cam lock, I see what might be a credit card shim visible on the right side, but not the left. When shimming the cam lock to obtain tight fit, it's important to use the same shim on both sides. Uneven shim could result in the crank "appearing" off by some amount.

[4] Note the cam sprocket onto end of camshaft... does not have a keyway. Rotational position of the cam sprocket on the camshaft is (intentionally) 100% variable. The system is designed to allow each of the 3 important items (crank, cam, IP) to be individually fixed at an exact spot. Continuing... That (intended) flexibility in the system comes with an important associated requirement... that the proper procedure is used to install the timing belt components (ie. in the proper sequence). It's not enough just to assemble all the stuff back together... it needs to be done in a certain order (as mentioned in the writeup), to ensure that the various items end up properly indexed.

gforce1108 said:

The only problem with that is they need to break the cam gear loose from the cam. It's much safer to do that with the cam lock removed or your risk breaking it end of the cam (vacuum pump drive end). Cam pulley needs to be loose to correctly tension after everything is aligned.

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I don't understand the problem as you say.

I leave the lock plate on when i pop off the cam sprocket. There is really no torquing on the camshaft when you do that. The puller is pulling the sprocket straight off.

Once the sprocket is off it's rather hard to twist the camshaft back in place if it get's misaligned in the process.

Hello DR. Volks here I would get the right tools, back off the cam bolt lock it then use the puller. Them loosen up the pump bolts too. I do 2 to 5 ALH timing belt job a week some times.
I remove the belt then use the crank alignment tool to lock the crank at Top Dead Center.
I install all new parts and hardware. I leave the cam bolt like a 1/2 a turn off. Then tighten the adjuster just past the alignment mark. them back it off to its set point.

Tighten every thing do not torque it. Remove all the locks turn it over a few times reline up the TDC mark and recheck all the locking pins and plates. Recheck the adjuster it may be on the loose side now. If the locks slide in you are right on the money . If not line up what is needed and recheck Then torque it down. As I said you may need to re adjust the adjuster. I spend a lot of time doing the alignment part then I check the injector timing with the VAG COM most of the time it will be right on if not I make the needed adjustments. Then check IC and adjust if needed.
Bob Mann

gforce1108 said:

The only problem with that is they need to break the cam gear loose from the cam. It's much safer to do that with the cam lock removed or your risk breaking it end of the cam (vacuum pump drive end). Cam pulley needs to be loose to correctly tension after everything is aligned.

Click to expand...

I do not agree. Official procedure is with cam lock in place, and as another poster said: there is no torque on cam while pulling the pulley. And yes, getting cam back at tdc without cam sprocket is difficult. Camlock out is only important when torqueing the pulley bolt.

The problem doesn't lie in pulling the cam sprocket off the cam.
The problem lies in torque transferred to the cam lock plate (which shouldn't take torque) during the loosening / tightening of the bolt that holds the cam sprocket on the cam.

The key here is one tool not mentioned in the recent few replies- it's the cam sprocket counterhold tool. It's a fairly long thing with pegs protruding from its legs, that are used to engage in the spokes of the cam sprocket and hold it in position while torque is being applied to the cam sprocket bolt. That tool (when used properly) prevents torque from being applied to the cam lock plate.

[EDIT]- What I WISH I had written above, and in fact what I do is... Use the counterhold tool when applying any torque to the cam sprocket (loosening or tightening). When doing this, the cam indexing plate is removed so it's not there to experience any torque. As gforce mentions below... the camshaft can be rotated by various means, if the need arises to turn it slightly when the time comes to get the indexing plate back in place. A medium size pair of channel lock pliers carefully applied to the non-machined camshaft surface between lobes will also do the trick, on the rare occasion that the need might arise.

jokila said:

I don't understand the problem as you say.
I leave the lock plate on when i pop off the cam sprocket. There is really no torquing on the camshaft when you do that. The puller is pulling the sprocket straight off.
Once the sprocket is off it's rather hard to twist the camshaft back in place if it get's misaligned in the process.

Click to expand...

Correct -The issue is removing the cam pulley bolt. It must come off - and should not be attempted with the cam lock in place.

Jettascuba said:

I do not agree. Official procedure is with cam lock in place, and as another poster said: there is no torque on cam while pulling the pulley. And yes, getting cam back at tdc without cam sprocket is difficult. Camlock out is only important when torqueing the pulley bolt.

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It's just as important when loosening the bolt. And it's easy to get back to TDC after the bolt is loosened, but before the sprocket is removed

Corsair said:

The problem doesn't lie in pulling the cam sprocket off the cam.
The problem lies in torque transferred to the cam lock plate (which shouldn't take torque) during the loosening / tightening of the bolt that holds the cam sprocket on the cam.
The key here is one tool not mentioned in the recent few replies- it's the cam sprocket counterhold tool. It's a fairly long thing with pegs protruding from its legs, that are used to engage in the spokes of the cam sprocket and hold it in position while torque is being applied to the cam sprocket bolt. That tool (when used properly) prevents torque from being applied to the cam lock plate.

Click to expand...

Thank you for reiterating this... But - even when using the counterhold tool, it's very easy to put some force on the cam. This risks breaking the ears off the drive portion of the cam if the lock is still in place.
Very simple - it's not worth the risk. Remove lock - break bolt loose - reinstall cam lock (cam will still be easy to turn using the sprocket - especially with the counterhold tool) and then remove the pulley.

Agree with gforce... allow me to go edit my previous reply....

I am doing one right now I leave the updated lock in the cam I use a cam sprocket holding tool break free the bolt and use the puller to release the sprocket. I then can rock the cam with the locking tool if I need too then slide in the locking bolts to have every thing set up right on the money. I have done hundreds of the ALH this way and never broke a cam.
Bob Mann

keaton85 said:

Leave the cam lock! Just get the belt off and adjust the crank and IP. After you proceed like normal.

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this is what I would do (sort of).

I do every ALH that way. (sort of).

Well its about time for an update. I now have all the timing marks set properly.
Just a matter of realigning the past mechanics wrong doings.
I have all the rollers replaced and the new water pump in and properly torqued.
I have a rabbit diesel, so I am not rushing this car.
I also installed the block ear fix plate, so hopefully all will be well once the engine mount is bolted down.
Thanks to all who replied.
This forum is a wealth of information and experience.

Will hopefully be installing the belt and refilling coolant this week if its not too crazy hot here.
Cheers.

A old socket with a slot ground in it works as a great cam pulley hold back tool. Just grind a slot in it the size of one of the spokes on the cam pulley. That's what I use and it works great.

Jettascuba said:

I do not agree. Official procedure is with cam lock in place, and as another poster said: there is no torque on cam while pulling the pulley. And yes, getting cam back at tdc without cam sprocket is difficult. Camlock out is only important when torqueing the pulley bolt.

Click to expand...

The issue is breaking the bolt free cam damage the end of the cam even with a sprocket holder. Break bolt free then lock it and pull. Everything else can be rotated to position once the belt is out. Also someone mentioned a crank lock. That is not used on an ALH.

This whole procedure isn't rocket science. Nothing will magically leap out of time when stuff is undone.

jasonTDI said:

The issue is breaking the bolt free cam damage the end of the cam even with a sprocket holder. Break bolt free then lock it and pull. Everything else can be rotated to position once the belt is out. Also someone mentioned a crank lock. That is not used on an ALH.
This whole procedure isn't rocket science. Nothing will magically leap out of time when stuff is undone.

Click to expand...

Agree all the way!

jasonTDI said:

Also someone mentioned a crank lock. That is not used on an ALH.

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http://www.metalnerd.com/cat02.htm

MN4004


ALH crank lock is not a MUST HAVE..... but it makes the job a little easier if the crank is locked and cant rotate. I use it on everyone, but I've done bunches of IDI diesels TB's before I got the lock without using one.