Standard transmissions are for losers - discuss...

Tdijarhead · Jul 18, 2014

I learned to drive on an automatic. Having worked on a farm as a teenager in high school I was familiar with how a stick worked. My first car was a Ford Pinto four speed, I bought it from a friend almost new 5000 miles. I was in LA at the time and so I learned to really drive stick in LA traffic. I would imagine its much worse today than it was then. Leaving out those who have a physical impairment, automatics are for those among us who are...well...lazy.

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 18, 2014

Automatic transmissions have been around for many years, certainly over 60. And they aren't a common failure item, at least not on American cars, where they've been most popular.

As others have pointed out, the ratio of manual to automatic cars in the US is just about opposite Europe. I think a lot of that is because we've traditionally built big cars with big low-revving engines that lend themselves to automatics. And the automatics work well. I remember being impressed with my friend's mom's 1963 Ford Galaxy with a V8 and 3-speed auto. Worked flawlessly. And that's 50 years ago. One might argue that more Europeans drive cars with manuals because, until recently, their automatic transmissions have been inferior to the ones in American cars.

I think people who drive automatics find them convenient and easier. And many folks don't want to be engaged in the mechanics of making a vehicle move, they'd rather just drive. I don't think that makes them lazy.

maybe368 · Jul 18, 2014

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Automatic transmissions have been around for many years, certainly over 60.
I think people who drive automatics find them convenient and easier. And many folks don't want to be engaged in the mechanics of making a vehicle move, they'd rather just drive. I don't think that makes them lazy.

I agree, the auto was invented in 1921, but didn't really come of age until the '50s. I don't think that it's being lazy, it is being comfortable. Life was always hard work and there was a big effort to make things easier, refrigerators, dish washers and automatic transmissions. For many people, a car gets them from A to B, for others, it is still a thrill. I remember the overwhelming sense of freedom I got when my parents gave me their '64 Mercury Montclair, I still get that feeling and for me the convenience of an auto is cancelled by the thrill of shifting when I want. That can be all the way to redline. Also, don't forget that the torque converter has much to do with how the power gets passed on to the road, "Stay thirsty my friend"...Mark

Abacus · Jul 18, 2014

Tom Brown said:
The market spoke long ago and it came out clearly in favor of automatic transmissions.

APT said:
The US market share for manuals is not dwindling. It has been under 10% for over 15 years. It's small to tiny, but it has been for a long time.

TDI Bug 52mpg said:
The "American" market spoke long ago. And, lazy as Americans are, of course the auto's won out. Goto the UK and the tranny type ratio is flipped on its head.

Wrong, the American market is what the auto makers and government says it is, since they decide what we can and cannot have. My father tried to order a newer Toyota 4Runner in a stick since he won't own an auto and he couldn't even get one. The dealerships gave him the line "American's want automatics", but yet here he was, an American looking for a standard and could not get one. Couple that with a diesel and I'd even buy one, which is saying something since I hate the way Toyota's feel.

I LOVED driving in the UK and also like that an automatic has to be specified when renting a car. It is just assumed you will drive a stick. I also like that the majority of cars are diesel, ones we cannot have over here. That in itself should speak volumes. No, the choices given to us for vehicles are not what the consumer wants, it's what the consumer is given and told it's what they want. If your choices are A, you cannot choose B because it isn't offered.

belome said:
GM quit producing the manual trans in their Duramax powered trucks because the Auto was stronger and the Manual couldn't handle the torque.

Hogwash. The standard transmission has been shown to hold up to virtually any power and most big torque engines had standard transmissions coupled to them for many years. The NV5600 comes to mind (a nice 6 speed HD gearbox) along with many others. Yes, they are slower shifting than an automatic or a DSG (which is essentially an electronic clutch manual transmission) but if you're that concerned about milliseconds you should buy something else anyway. I will agree the clutch is the deciding factor for driveline strength, but I have seen big torque vehicles twist driveshafts like a towel on manual transmissions that are decades old.

Autos were perceived to be stronger since they were a fluid coupling and not a direct coupling, and they had no lockup torque converter for many years. The TH400 in my Jeepster was considered one of the toughest auto transmissions available but only because it was always moving fluid and had few mating (wearable) parts.

Herm TDI said:
In my opinion the only reason that car makers are "pushing" automatics / DSG is that the average American (20 something) driver is plain lazy to learn to drive a manual transmission. It has nearly reached the point that a manual transmission has become an anti-theft device.

There are so many "distraction devices" manufactured into new cars that average drivers can't drive a manual transmission and that is why the manufactures are "pushing' their slush boxes.

I think this is true enough. I find it illogical and fallacious that in the age of 'distracted drivers' there are more buttons, sat-navs, and crap to distract you than every before, and all in the name of 'safety'. Driving a vehicle means distracted driving, you cannot have one without the other. What is lost on this generation is that recognition, that you must be able to drive amid distractions and attempting to remove those distractions (and/or fine you for them) is doing the driving community a disservice. I'm not saying hand everyone a cellphone and have them text, but learn to drive properly.

CopaMundial said:
Whatever small amount of seconds the guy with DSG gains going from one traffic light to another I will easily make up when I drive past the shop and see his car up on a lift for a couple hours of service.

My thoughts exactly. But, if I were living in a city, which I would only do when hell froze over and my winter gear were taken from me, I would own a disposable automatic since they are better in the city, and then it'd probably be a Prius anyway. This would be immediately preceding my untimely demise.

Tom Brown · Jul 18, 2014

The best thing about driving a manual Golf is the feeling that you're getting somewhere. You're not, of course, but it feels like things are happening quickly because you're clutching, shifting, and running the gears instead of being frustrated with the slow acceleration.

I love my TDI and it's more than sufficient but it's one of the slowest vehicles I've ever owned. Not by much, though.

ezshift5 · Jul 18, 2014

Interesting (and differing) points of view........consider for a moment:

...the smoothness of the BMW clutch, the snick-snick of the S2000 6M, the lack of the thousand dollar automatic transmission surcharge..........

....the elevated maintenance level

...the boring, lazy left foot approach to the driving task....(the lack of involvement).

My last automatic came with the used (but beautifully preserved) 1957 Ford Sunliner I drove during my two years a San Jose State. Girls, sun, wind in the hair, too many beers: Ford-O-Matic is there for you.

Then I got a bug.

ez

maybe368 · Jul 18, 2014

ezshift5 said:
Interesting (and differing) points of view........consider for a moment:
...the smoothness of the BMW clutch, the snick-snick of the S2000 6M, the lack of the thousand dollar automatic transmission surcharge..........
....the elevated maintenance level
...the boring, lazy left foot approach to the driving task....(the lack of involvement).
My last automatic came with the used (but beautifully preserved) 1957 Ford Sunliner I drove during my two years a San Jose State. Girls, sun, wind in the hair, too many beers: Ford-O-Matic is there for you.
Then I got a bug.
ez

I still have a '62 Fairlane with a 2 speed Ford-O-Matic, still works like a charm. Your Sunliner had the retractable hardtop, right? The only other auto that I have is a '68 Impala SS convertible with a turbo 400, fun to drive, but would be much more fun with a 4-speed...Mark

miningman · Jul 18, 2014

Have NEVER driven an auto that provides the same level of control in snow and ice that a manual does. Maybe the new autos do , but I cant see it.

Scoutx · Jul 18, 2014

While DSG and autos have their advantages....so do Manuals.

Manual advantages:
1) reliability
2) Durability
3) Life
4) Cost
5) Weight
6) Cheaper maintance

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 18, 2014

I just drove home from Boston midday today, 36 miles, 90 minutes. July, Friday afternoon, people headed to Cape Cod. I was in the B4 Passat. Didn't once think about it being a manual in traffic. Clutch is light, shifter works beautifully, you can idle along in 1st at walking speed, dead easy to drive even in stop-and-go.

belome · Jul 18, 2014

Abacus said:
Hogwash. The standard transmission has been shown to hold up to virtually any power and most big torque engines had standard transmissions coupled to them for many years.

Call it hogwash if want, but I personally know someone who was an engineer on the duramax program when the quit making the manual trans an option. He knows for sure that the reason they got rid of the manual was because it couldn't hold up to the power of the Duramax. [too many warranty claims]

Sure, they could have went to a beefier trans that could have handled the power but they decided to just get rid of it instead because 95% of buyers wanted the auto anyways.

Tom Brown · Jul 18, 2014

belome said:
...95% of buyers wanted the auto anyways.

No doubt.

My truck is a manual and I had to hunt for quite a while to find the right truck with that transmission.

In the Ford and Dodge world, the manual is stronger than the auto and will hold up better. I've never seen a manual Duramax. Didn't know they ever made them, to be honest.

GM has a good thing with the Alison transmission. It was an obvious and easy decision to ditch the manual, IMO.

You can't throw your keys at a helper and ask them to run for materials when you've got a manual trans, dual rear wheel, truck that is over 20 feet long. It would be a criminally irresponsible thing to do to every other driver on the road. lol!

belome · Jul 18, 2014

Tom Brown said:
u can't throw your keys at a helper and ask them to run for materials when you've got a manual trans, dual rear wheel, truck that is over 20 feet long. You would be a criminally irresponsible thing to do to every other driver on the road. lol!

He took home a test truck just about every night. It was sort of a first come first serve basis. He hated it when he worked late and got stuck with a dually. He had more than one incident where the fender got a little to close to something it shouldn't have. Luckily those trucks were destroyed at the end of the model year anyways so nobody cared what happened to them.

Edit - another funny story. He had a test truck with a DPF. It started a regen in our driveway. He took a paper towel and held it behind the tailpipe and it caught on fire. He was like, "yeah, we need to do a little more work on the exhaust/dpf system before it his the public."

waltzconmigo · Jul 18, 2014

Scoutx said:
While DSG and autos have their advantages....so do Manuals.

Manual advantages:
1) reliability
2) Durability
3) Life
4) Cost
5) Weight
6) Cheaper maintance

7)enjoyment; priceless

Speed2000 · Jul 18, 2014

Herm TDI said:
In my opinion the only reason that car makers are "pushing" automatics / DSG is that the average American (20 something) driver is plain lazy to learn to drive a manual transmission. On this forum we've discussed this issue in a number of threads. It has nearly reached the point that a manual transmission has become an anti-theft device.

There are so many "distraction devices" manufactured into new cars that average drivers can't drive a manual transmission and that is why the manufactures are "pushing' their slush boxes.

I love it

DPM · Jul 19, 2014

Q. What manual gearbox can BMW offer in Europe for the -35d torquemonster?

BeetleGo · Jul 19, 2014

Loser? LOSER?!!! Bah! You drive a stick; you drive ANYTHING. Drive an automatic, and that's all you drive. I will drive anything, thankyouverymuch!

And driving a stick IS an effective theft deterrent. Even thieves don't know how to drive them anymore!

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 19, 2014

DSG service complexity and cost is way overhyped here. Service kit is $100. Tools aren't essential, but make it easier, cost anywhere from $30 to $150. VAG-COM is necessary to do it right, but IMO you should own that regardless.

Six speed manuals on VWs now take 3 liters of gear oil that's $30/liter. That's $90 every 100K. So although the difference in cost is there, it's not really that significant, less than the cost of two tires in 200K.

Madlrg · Jul 19, 2014

Sorry but I'm new here how do I go about starting a new post?..thanks everyone

Tuco · Jul 19, 2014

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Six speed manuals on VWs now take 3 liters of gear oil that's $30/liter. That's $90 every 100K. So although the difference in cost is there, it's not really that significant, less than the cost of two tires in 200K.

The 6MT takes 2.3 liters. Fuchs 70W gear oil (same as OEM) can be had for @ $22 per liter, so cost is closer to $50 every 100K miles. No comparison to the cost to service a DSG.

Windex · Jul 19, 2014

Yes, but DSG service is not as onerous as it is made out to be. Even up here soviet Canuckistan, it's $125 worth of fluid, and $10 worth of materials and some time to make the fill adapter. While you can say you need VCDS to make sure the fluid temps are exact, a non contact IR temp gun works just as well.

JDSwan87 · Jul 19, 2014

Madlrg said:
Sorry but I'm new here how do I go about starting a new post?..thanks everyone

Select the sub forum you want to start a new thread in and directly below the "TDIClub" logo is a button that says "Start new thread" click it, type a title, and what you want to talk about...

Back to original thread...
I just like DRIVING a car, not just getting in one and waiting for my destination to show up...

IndigoBlueWagon · Jul 19, 2014

Tuco said:
The 6MT takes 2.3 liters. Fuchs 70W gear oil (same as OEM) can be had for @ $22 per liter, so cost is closer to $50 every 100K miles. No comparison to the cost to service a DSG.

So you know someone who'll sell you .3 liters of gear oil?

Tuco · Jul 19, 2014

IndigoBlueWagon said:
So you know someone who'll sell you .3 liters of gear oil?

No but if someone buys 7 liters at one time, it is enough for 3 service intervals, and they save on shipping.

Tom Brown · Jul 19, 2014

BeetleGo said:
Loser? LOSER?!!! Bah! You drive a stick; you drive ANYTHING. Drive an automatic, and that's all you drive. I will drive anything, thankyouverymuch!

Both my car and truck are manuals. I am man enough to admit that I've stomped the floor with my left foot a couple of times, when coming to a stop in my wife's CR-V.

"You OK"

"Yep. I just had an itch."

lol!

jason_ · Jul 19, 2014

I pull 35K# everyday behind my nv4500, over 800,000 on that gearbox. Did bearings once in it around 300k.

I don't dare put grocery weight in the back seat of my wife's car w/automatic that has 200k....

One way clutches, solenoids, Springs, Pistons, orings, seals, check valves, torque converter, lock up clutches, and that's if the fluid isn't roached and pumps successfully through a filter, that hopefully is getting up front to get chilled, , which feeds a hydraulic pump. Old school valve bodies at least ran without electricity.

I'll take a manual for reliability and simplicity.

'nuff said.

Sent from my rooted HTC Supersonic using Tapatalk 2 Pro

Speed2000 · Jul 19, 2014

Has anyone taken a DSG 500k miles yet?

2.2TDI · Jul 19, 2014

Speed2000 said:
Has anyone taken a DSG 500k miles yet?

Has anyone taken any automatic for that matter to 500k? (without major repairs or rebuilds of some sort).

rotarykid · Jul 19, 2014

the rest of world has no interest in automatic transmissions, the stats today on sales show this! 85-90 % manual today around the world. That number has not budged in decades and is showing no sign of changing anytime in the near or far away future...

The US has had cheap fuel for so long, still does compared the rest of the world the automatic trans mpg penalty has never been a problem for most. The rest of the world is paying double or more than we per gal. So every mpg matters to them so they have no interest in the loss of mpgs any automatic gives....

And I don't care what any rating says manual trans cars will always have fuel savings over automatics of all types...Then you throw in the service life of automatics, their required extra maintenance and that cost can get into the 10s of thousands above over what it cost for a manual....That extra wasted money for a automatic starts to seem a little silly, or to drivers like me quite silly....

Fixem4Fun · Jul 20, 2014

Tom Brown said:
Both my car and truck are manuals. I am man enough to admit that I've stomped the floor with my left foot a couple of times, when coming to a stop in my wife's CR-V.
"You OK"
"Yep. I just had an itch."
lol! [/QUOTE
My 83' MB 300SD had a huge brake pedal. After braking hard to avoid a deer the car would not accelerate. That's when I figured out where my left foot was.

Standard transmissions are for losers - discuss...

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Veteran Member

That helpful B4 guy

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Veteran Member

Active member

Top Post Dawg

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

New member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Black Swamp Thing

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Active member

Veteran Member

Top Post Dawg

Active member