GM Resurrects the Electric Car

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General Motors, a company notorious for allegedly conspiring with Big Oil and others to "kill the electric car," is about to roll out a unique, fuel-efficient sedan that could redefine electric vehicles.

The new Chevrolet Volt, which premieres Sunday at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, is a new spin on hybrids. The Volt runs exclusively on battery power, but a gas-fueled engine onboard runs the motor and recharges the batteries when they run low.

The sedan uses liquid fuel in the form of gasoline, ethanol or diesel to power the 3-cylinder generator, extending the driving range. Its engine recharges the Volt's batteries in approximately 30 minutes, says GM.

It can go 600 miles or more before needing refueling or recharging, according to GM, and the batteries should last for about 40 miles without recharging. To reduce fuel consumption, drivers can plug the Volt into a standard 110-volt electrical outlet to recharge the batteries in approximately six hours.

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The electricity-generation system can be modified to run on gasoline, ethanol, diesel, biodiesel or even a fuel cell in the future, he said.

The Volt has the same operating characteristics as plug-in hybrid vehicles currently being developed (primary battery power supplemented by burning fuel), but hybrids differ because they can simultaneously generate power from a combustion engine and electricity.

Substituting an electric generator for plug-in hybrids' internal-combustion engine simplifies the engineering process because it doesn't require managing multiple power sources, according to Posawatz, and it cuts costs by eliminating a mechanical transmission.

While a hybrid drive train is more energy efficient than the Volt's, the new car will get about 50 mpg when the generator is on.

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Wow, 600 miles between refueling and 50 mpg, if only we had a car out now that could do that.

Though the new car uses a different technology, the batteries in the Volt perform nearly identically to those in the EV1, which GM developed in the 1990s. Posawatz said the Volt's lithium-ion batteries can store about the same amount of power (16 kilowatt-hours) and provide nearly the same vehicle range (40 miles or more) as the EV1's lead-acid batteries. However, the lithium-ion batteries, located under the Volt's chassis and are about a third the size of the EV1's, should last the vehicle's lifetime.

GM has not stated a target price for the Volt, but the lithium-ion batteries alone would cost upward of $10,000 today, Posawatz said.

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At $10,000 for the batteries, I wonder what one can expect the "lifetime" of the vehicle to be?

I saw that car on various news websites. Looks interesting to see another kind of hybrid model.

PHEV can be cool, but I'm wondering about how this car performs in the winter. 40 mile battery only range probably drops to about 5 miles when you have to use some of the charge to warm the battery itself, and also heat the passenger compartment. And I'll bet air-conditioning in those 100 degree humid summers probably takes a toll on range as well.

jimnms said:

Wow, 600 miles between refueling and 50 mpg, if only we had a car out now that could do that.

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That's when the generator is on. When it's off it's theoretically infinite. We need to know fuel tank size to know actual fuel economy.

40 miles before the batteries need recharging seems like a joke.

We're supposed to buy a new car with thousands of dollars of batteries that will get us 40 miles?

rcnaylor said:

We're supposed to buy a new car with thousands of dollars of batteries that will get us 40 miles?

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Maybe not you, but I would probably buy one for my better half. A plug-in hybrid would eliminate the downsides to both regular hybrids and plug-in only vehicles, which would be damn near perfect for running around the city.

Now if it was a plug-in diesel hybrid... Hell. Yes.

Does a hybrid have the performance, longevity or economy of my Golf TDI?
No, probably not, yes.

Would it drastically reduce my household use of petroleum & CO2 tailpipe emissions yet allow easy mobility (both for in-city and longer trips)?
Absolutely.

I'm not a hybrid fanboy by any stretch of the imagination - nor will I blindly swear my allegiance to diesel vehicles forever - however, I certainly feel that they're both means to the same end. Hybrids are better for some folks, diesels are better for others. I can certainly see space for both in my garage.

scurvy

Having examined an AC Delco alternator, I am skeptical

The big 3 missed the boat once again , If they chose they could fill their lots with 50 mpg diesels from their European partners and regain the US market .

But what do they do ???? They fill the auto show with flashy over weight low mpg junk and not so cutting edge "Pie in the Sky" hybrid electric vehicle which may/more than likely will never reach production . Can't make a lot of money with a $10 k + in the center of the car .

Every time I think about this it just pisses me off . The big 3 deserve to go broke from their stupidity . Although I do feel sorry for their workers .

Hey Big 3 ; spooning out water with a tea spoon of from a sinking ship never helps much . You need to plug the leaking hole in the side of the ship if you want it to stay afloat .

rotarykid said:

The big 3 missed the boat once again , If they chose they could fill their lots with 50 mpg diesels from their European partners and regain the US market .

But what do they do ???? They fill the auto show with flashy over weight low mpg junk and not so cutting edge "Pie in the Sky" hybrid electric vehicle which may/more than likely will never reach production . Can't make a lot of money with a $10 k + in the center of the car .

Every time I think about this it just pisses me off . The big 3 deserve to go broke from their stupidity . Although I do feel sorry for their workers .

Hey Big 3 ; spooning out water with a tea spoon of from a sinking ship never helps much . You need to plug the leaking hole in the side of the ship if you want it to stay afloat .

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Yeah, seems kind of stupid from an educated consumer's point of view. But we're not their target demographic.

What would be in GM's best interest, I believe, would be to align themselves with oil companies and conspire to make the public believe that Ethanol is the next killer fuel technology and delay the introduction of viable electric cars for as long as possible.

40 miles without ever starting the motor? Sure, I'd look at it.

Here is the $64,000 question: If this car can attain 50 MPG when the gasoline engine is running, why not dispense with the battery entirely and couple such an efficient engine directly to a manual transmission?

Mopar, because the IC engine is not connected to the drive shaft it can run at a fixed RPM, this is much more efficent. It also does not need to generate the same peak load as both the batteries & IC engine will provide power to the electric motor during those short peaks.

GM I believe already have a bus either on the market or in testing that is designed like this and the size of the diesel engine is similar to a car rather then a truck.
I can't find a link to this so I may be remembering the details wrong, or mixing it up with something else.

They call it an electric car...but basically its a hybrid. American car companies just refuse to learn from the past. Go back to when Datson and Toyota brought the first small pickup to the U.S. back in the '70's. They just sat back on their 300 lb. asses, drawing 6 digit incomes and simply didnt feel a "small truck" would take off in America! The big three as it was in the past, (Toyota is about to become numero uno) have always had a history of laying back and watching the overseas automakers gain great strides in America. Always waiting for the Japanese companies to test the waters...then when everything seems real "safe", they dive in. But by then its too late!

Now by now everyone here knows that Ford and GM both have diesel powered versions in the U.K. of many of the current gassers we have here. Including the highly sought after "small pickup". My question is, what are they waiting for?
Answer: The Japanese to enter the American market with these diesels.(which is becoming more an more likely in the next 2-3 years).

RabbitGTI said:

Having examined an AC Delco alternator, I am skeptical

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LOL well said

weedeater said:

40 miles without ever starting the motor? Sure, I'd look at it.

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I'd "look" at it too, but that's just about all I'd do. It's a good idea, but it doesn't seem very economical to me. How much will the rest of the car cost if you gotta pay $10k for the batteries alone?

It seems that the target for this type of car is people who don't drive much, and for people like that, IMO spending over $20k on an electric car like this is a waste of money. You'd be better off spending ~$10K on a good used car and putting that other $10k in a savings account for buying fuel.

As I discussed in another topic, I was thinking that a plug in electric car would be perfect for someone like my mom. She probably only drives 50 miles per week just going to work and back and an occasional trip to the grocery store or somewhere else. She never goes out of town by herself, if she does go out of town she rides with me or my sister.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/08/the_hybrid_mini.php

This application of a PHEV seems to be a bit better. They could drop the HP in half and still have a great performer and probably better mpgs. Substitute the gas engine for a diesel and the mpgs and range would both dramatically increase.

jimnms said:

I'd "look" at it too, but that's just about all I'd do. It's a good idea, but it doesn't seem very economical to me. How much will the rest of the car cost if you gotta pay $10k for the batteries alone?

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We don't know. It's a prototype so we don't know what the price of the batteries would be when produced in large numbers for production.

It seems that the target for this type of car is people who don't drive much, and for people like that, IMO spending over $20k on an electric car like this is a waste of money. You'd be better off spending ~$10K on a good used car and putting that other $10k in a savings account for buying fuel.

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For the last 5 years or so, my commute has been 35 miles a day/6 days a week. Theoretically, that would be over 50,000 miles using no gas. That would be pretty decent fuel economy. Using a typical 4-door sedan that would average 25mpg and that would be 2100 gallons at $3/gal or $6k.

As I said, I would look at it. Hopefully it will be at the DC car show in a few weeks so I can look at it for real.

Wow, I'm kind of amazed at the laid-back response you guys have to this thing, but maybe I'm weird. It's been one of the most-discussed topics on Autoblog and AutoblogGreen, and even has quite the thread on GM's own Fastlane blog. Of course, you folks may have long memories and be aware that this isn't the first time one of these cars has been created (someone mentioned last year's PML Mini QED, for instance). But it is pretty significant in the minds of many because 1.) it's from GM and 2.) it shows that some in the company have stopped believing their own hydrogen fuel cell hype.

Anyway, I've been poking around digging up resources today, and I think I'm going to coalesce it all into the Wikipedia article on the Volt over the weekend. I think it's an exciting idea, even if it's been done, and I think their supposed battery problems are less significant than they say. The big thing is probably cost -- It looks like they want the total cost of the car to be $25,000 to $30,000 ($17-18k for the base vehicle, then $4-5k for the battery pack, plus other extra bits). Right now, batteries cost at least twice what they want, though the safety and reliability hasn't been fully worked out either.

That being said, the project got going after Bob Lutz (whose title is Vice Chairman of GM North America or somesuch thing) learned about the Tesla Roadster and the fact they were planning to make it for $100k or less. Who said competition never got GM to do anything?

I know there has been a lot of hype over PHEVs, but I think the laid-back response in this forum is simply because the technology for this vehicle either doesn't exist, or would cost far too much to be practical. GM has had their try with electric cars, and the biggest barrier to this was the breakthrough in battery technology that never materialized - and still doesn't exist to this day.

The attempts at hybrids have pretty much fallen into three camps so far, including this GM vehicle:
1. The Honda approach; primarily a gasoline vehicle that gets a boost from battery power when needed. The gasoline engine is the primary motive power, so it is efficient and always is running when the car is in motion.
2. The Toyota approach; where motive power can be battery power, gasoline power, or a split between the two. The gasoline engine can be shut down independently of the moving car.
3. The GM Volt approach; battery power is the primary motive power, and the gasoline engine recharges the battery when needed from extended driving.
The different methods divide by having the gasoline engine directly connected to the wheels, independent (using a Toyota CVT), or not connected at all by simply using an electric generator to power the electric motor.

I always liked the Honda approach at hybrids, because it was the most transparent of the three different ways of having motive power. I don't think that GM is really going in the right direction, because having a gasoline engine independent of the vehice drivetrain isn't the most efficient. Locomotives use this method of propulsion simply because there can't be built a transmission large enough to handle 5,000 horsepower.

In order to do what GM wants to do, there would be required a battery technology breakthrough on the order of sci-fi out of an Arthur C. Clarke novel. Current batteries simply don't have the capacity, durability, all-weather performance, longavity, or quick recharge rate. And that doesn't even address the cost factor.

If GM wants a high mileage vehicle, they could do far better by using an efficient diesel engine coupled to a manual or direct-drive automatic transmission. Likely, at lower cost too.

So, it runs on coal ....

scurvy said:

Now if it was a plug-in diesel hybrid... Hell. Yes.

Would it drastically reduce my household use of petroleum & CO2 tailpipe emissions yet allow easy mobility (both for in-city and longer trips)?
Absolutely.

scurvy

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Most electricity in the U.S. is generated by burning coal. A plug-in hybrid / electric would be predominantly be running on coal if it were primarily used for short trips of less than the 40 or 50 miles per day battery range.

You may drastically reduce the household usage of petroleum and CO2 emission at the tailpipe only to replace it with consumption of coal and emission of C02 and sulphur dioxide at the power plant. This might still be considered an improvement as the U.S. has a lot more proven coal reserves than proven oil reserve.

Plug-in hybrids may be part of a larger solution, certainly better than a 10 MPG SUV, but are not a panacea.

BTW, the recharging feature makes mileage (energy consumption) comparisons meaningless unless you also track the KWhr used to recharge the batteries and include it in the overall calculation.

The Laws of Thermodynamics are so inconvenient. Can't we just repeal them?

I live in Illinois, which has more nuclear power plants than any other state and is beginning to outfit all coal-fired plants with very efficient scubbers. Besides that, a power plant - even a fossil fired one - is still FAR more efficient at turning Paleozoic muck into useful energy than any car engine can. The laws of thermodynamics can't be repealed, but they still are on my side.

Would I prefer a B100-fueled/solar plug in electric hybrid? Of course! I'm certainly not saying a plug-in hybrid is the solution to all our problems, but I do think it's a signifigant step in the right direction.

Until GM has models on the showroom floor, I'm still considering this model as vaporware. Detroit proverb say, "[SIZE=-1]Rick Wagoner says many things."

scurvy
[/SIZE]

Kabin said:

That's when the generator is on. When it's off it's theoretically infinite. We need to know fuel tank size to know actual fuel economy.

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What about if you take it on a trip and you can't plug it in. When you stop and park, does the generator continue to run and top off the batteries or does it shut down? If it continues to run, you're burning fuel and getting 0 MPG.

What if you can't plug it in?

jimnms said:

What about if you take it on a trip and you can't plug it in. When you stop and park, does the generator continue to run and top off the batteries or does it shut down? If it continues to run, you're burning fuel and getting 0 MPG.

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Run the generator while parked? Sure, you could but there should never be a need to do so.

An intelligent design must provide for the internal combustion engine to provide enough energy to drive the car and provide a little extra to charge the battery under most driving conditions, e.g. steady speeds, moderate acceleration etc. This is necessary to ensure the battery remains at an adequate state of charge while driving.

The load can only exceed the engine capacity for intermittent and limited periods of time. If this were not true, the battery would gradually discharge completely while driving, even with the engine running, because the generator would not provide enough battery recharge to replace what is used while cruising.

The engine and generator would have to come on even at low speeds and around town if your daily driving exceeded the battery-only capacity before a plug-in recharge.

Of course, since this is a vaporware car, GM is free to design it in any way they wish.

Allen

Vaporware does not exist. GM would be showing hardware. Prototype hardware to be sure, but actual hardware.

I am very impressed by the arrogant lack of appreciation for anything other than a foreign diesel shown in the previous comments. What a bunch of closed minds. Maybe, since things are so bad here in the USofA, you naysayers ought to emmigrate to the other side of the pond and find out what life is like in the glorious worker's paradise that seems to be imagined. Vaporware? Yep, you'll find lots of it there.

Powder Hound said:

Vaporware does not exist. GM would be showing hardware. Prototype hardware to be sure, but actual hardware.

I am very impressed by the arrogant lack of appreciation for anything other than a foreign diesel shown in the previous comments. What a bunch of closed minds. Maybe, since things are so bad here in the USofA, you naysayers ought to emmigrate to the other side of the pond and find out what life is like in the glorious worker's paradise that seems to be imagined. Vaporware? Yep, you'll find lots of it there.

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This pie in the sky GM electric car is along the same line as pie in the sky hydrogen cars .

And there is no arrogance over diesel power that is proven and could be widely available here now if we had car makers that really cared about changing .

The arrogance is the big 3 ( THE NEW LITTLE 3 because of their dumb policies ) thinking we would ooh & aah over their future tech that we may never see in a production vehicle while they completely ignore clean high mpg diesel tech that we could have on the road today if they chose .

This is the wrong place to come if you want praise over future tech we have no chance that we will ever see . We all already know what can be done with todays diesel tech .

If you want praise for this kind of domestic outdated un-producible garbage go find a superficial car web site not filled with car technicians & engineers . They will think the "Volt" is really cool .............

rotarykid said:

This pie in the sky GM electric car is along the same line as pie in the sky hydrogen cars .

And there is no arrogance over diesel power that is proven and could be widely available here now if we had car makers that really cared about changing .

The arrogance is the big 3 ( THE NEW LITTLE 3 because of their dumb policies ) thinking we would ooh & aah over their future tech that we may never see in a production vehicle while they completely ignore clean high mpg diesel tech that we could have on the road today if they chose .

This is the wrong place to come if you want praise over future tech we have no chance that we will ever see . We all already know what can be done with todays diesel tech .

If you want praise for this kind of domestic outdated un-producible garbage go find a superficial car web site not filled with car technicians & engineers . They will think the "Volt" is really cool .............

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At best that's a naive perspective being that electric motors have been successful sources of transportation since the beginning of powered transportation. They're hardly futuristic and have no where near the technogical hurdles a hydrogen auto would have. Electric autos are manufacturable and easily maintained and that may be the biggest threat to the "big 3" or most auto mechanics for that matter. Most Americans (90%) drive less than 30 miles per day making electric vehicles an ideal commuter vehicle.

Kabin said:

At best that's a naive perspective being that electric motors have been successful sources of transportation since the beginning of powered transportation. They're hardly futuristic and have no where near the technological hurdles a hydrogen auto would have. Electric autos are manufacturable and easily maintained and that may be the biggest threat to the "big 3" or most auto mechanics for that matter. Most Americans (90%) drive less than 30 miles per day making electric vehicles an ideal commuter vehicle.

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It's not the electric motor that is the problem it is the lack of a practical cost wises battery power source . $10 k+ for a barely adequate battery system for each car isn't produce-able for a real world vehicle .

GM readily admits that they don't a have a practical produce-able battery system for their "Volt" prototype . Eir-go Pie in the Sky .

Hydrogen tech for near term is at least 10 years out if ever before it becomes practical for lite duty transport use . Hydrogen powered Proto type vehicles run into the $1,000,000 range to produce for show . I don't know about you but I don't expect to ever see hydrogen powered cars on the local auto dealers lots in lite duty transport in my life time .

These are facts whether you want to realize this or not . So again Pie in the Sky .

If we are really serious about reducing fuel consumption in lite duty transport for the foreseeable future diesel tech is the only mass produce able option .

We currently have affordable produce-able off the shelf diesel drive trains that can produce 70 mpg US in real world driving conditions that could installed , could have been installed yesterday if the big 3 chose to do so .

If the auto makers & the politicians ever decided to cut lite duty energy consumption by up to 3/4 of todays levels high mpg diesels are the way to realistically accomplish it .

So to the educated informed auto buying public the "Volt" concept is just insulting our intelligence . The "Volt" is A showy attempt to distract us from the fact that their US auto makers showrooms are full of outdated over weight low mpg crap they wish to dump on us .

I for one am not going to go along with it .

And all electric vehicles are not cleaner than their diesel counter part . In an all electric vehicle you would just be moving the polution from a tail pipe to a smoke stack . And you throw in the enviroments' cost of producing the battries then battery powered cars can be much dirtier .

I would also seriously consider one of these for my better half, who drives several short trips each day.
One major advantage of electric cars is that they are fast, and virtually maintenance free.
EV1's were around 8sec 0-60MPH, even when the batteries were half discharged. Top speed was governed to 80MPH but was capable of over 180MPH.
EV1 version 2 had NiMH batteries that supplied a range of 75-130 miles depending on driving habits and terrain with a deep 6hr charge.
A quick 15 minute charge was good for 30 miles or so.

We spend alot of time/money on regular maintenance on present cars, and experience far too many engine-related breakdowns. Whether it's coil packs, spark plugs, injectors, pistons or thousands of other potential problems the EV only has an electric motor, an electronic controller and battery pack.

Perhaps that was another factor which killed the EV. No more oil changes or engine work to charge their customers.

I don't know where GM got this 40 mile range figure, I guess they use a smaller battery. I think the ICE is a mistake.
I'd much rather see serious attempts in infestructure change.
I'd rather drive my 100 miles or so and do a swap out- kind of like exchanging LP bottles if neccessary.

Johnson Controls is one MFG which is chomping at the bit with Li-ion technology which is ready right now.
http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/

Kabin said:

At best that's a naive perspective being that electric motors have been successful sources of transportation since the beginning of powered transportation.

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That's just a bit oversimplified. Sure, electric motors work just fine for things like passenger trains. But the reason that the internal combustion engine became the number 1 choice over 100 years ago was the same reason it dominates today - driving range.

Electric autos are manufacturable and easily maintained and that may be the biggest threat to the "big 3" or most auto mechanics for that matter. Most Americans (90%) drive less than 30 miles per day making electric vehicles an ideal commuter vehicle.

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That's all well for Americans to average 30 miles a day, but the deal-breaker for electric cars is those days when the owner has to go further than 30 miles. Once you start pushing the range of an electric vehicle, it becomes a major pain in the butt to start dealing with recharging logistics. That is the point where 99.999% of consumers start backing out. No one wants to buy a car that only goes to work and home, because there are the days when sometimes people want to run out of town after their shift without worrying about where to plug the car in so that it will drive home. People frequently choose their vehicles for the biggest job or longest trip they'll have to take with it. Almost 100% of the time, they'll choose a car with unlimited range (with refuelings) over a battery vehicle simply because they want to make a few long distance trips each year. Liquid fuels are just too easy to use - takes 5 minutes to fill the tank at thousands of locations nationwide.

Taking the Chevy Volt into consideration - once you start teaming both electric and internal combustion drive systems, the cost goes up too high to make it worthwhile. Hybrids are nice for the small percentage of people who can afford them. The rest of the country is worried about their pocketbook. Personal finances are just like a business - the bottom line is the bottom line. Rational people without need for status symbols want a practical vehicle, and want to pay as little out of pocket as possible for that transportation. Show prospective customers two basic vehicles (one hybrid, one not) and they start to choose the regular vehicle when cost comes into play. It's nice to think of helping the environment, but that takes a back seat when the dollars come into the picture.

It's amazing how one sided we become when we think we've found the perfect solution. I too believe diesel is the best interim technology in a movement towards sustainable energy. But many folks are way too quick to dismiss the other technologies because of their percieved limitations (Lets not forget, BioDiesel has some limitations too).

I'd be happy to see any implementations of technology that help to get the world off fossil fuels and make the U.S. energy independent. And I try to incorporate them into my lifestyle as they become affordable. Right now there are two adults of driving age in my family (my wife and I), so we own two vehicles. One of them is my SUV (which is good to keep around for hauling stuff or when we both need to drive), and the other is my TDI which is my daily driver (my wife works at home). If electric cars were an option, I could sell my SUV, buy a trailer for the Jetta for hauling stuff and driving longer distances, and drive the electric car to work and back each day.

I don't think my situation is so unusual (and it would work equally well even if my wife had to drive to work also - we could just swap cars as needed).