Hill Starts with 6MT

I just got my Golf a week ago and am thoroughly enjoying it so far. I drove from Raleigh, NC to Greenville, SC hitting some traffic and shifting from 6th to 5th occasionally to vary engine RPM and averaged 46.5 mpg's. With only 500 miles, I can imagine that number just going up in the future.

The only thing I'm slightly disapointed in is that I find this car more difficult than the average car to start on moderate to steep hills. I feel like I have to give the car around half throttle with the hill hold feature to prevent it from stalling. At this point I feel like I'll be doing a clutch job at 50k.

I just wanted to see if anybody else felt like this or is there something I should be concerned about. Thanks for any input!

No need for half throttle on hill starts, just practice and time.

My car doesn't have hill hold, so at first i would use the parking brake.

Now i don't have any problems at all, even without using the parking brake.

Some of it is because i'm much better with the stick now, but really it simply just doesn't stall as easily as it used too.

I do feel your pain, its humbling aint it.

This has been discussed over and over for the last 2 years...The computer will stall the engine if the RPMs drop below 750..

I felt the same way at first. It is a different feeling and you get used to it. Also the ECU. learns your driving style after a while and it gets better with time. I felt like a complete newb at first with mine killing it at least 5 times a day and now at 28k it is much better.


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Yeah I agree, just practice a bit.

The previous TDI's had more low-low-end torque, and hill starts didn't involve much clutch slipping and 'feeding it the gas' (so to speak). In fact, many people said that they were the perfect cars to teach someone to drive a stick with. Just let out the clutch and the car took off -- no feathering the accelerator necessary.

But with these new TDI's, they've 'de-tuned' them at the low-low end. I surmise that this is because diesels kill with a heck of a 'bang', and VW tried to ensure that they killed gently if the rpm's got too low -- 750rpm as tomo noted.

tomo was one of many who complained about how often he was killing the car from a dead stop when he had his JSW brand new. Now he is apparently beyond that, but has no patience for others who are in the middle of that process themselves.

Damn Froggy! I really missed you!
But seriously do you have any idea how many threads there are on this subject??
A simple easy use of the search feature would verify this....

I've read of other people complaining about the hill-hold feature. Is the hill-hold feature adjustable? Maybe the dealer can make a change for you.

There is no cut off at 750 RPM. I logged this a while back in my '10. I did repeated no-throttle starts in a parking lot. As you can see I dropped it to 600RPM a few times.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=296966&highlight=clutch

There is no hill holder function....

MayorDJQ said:

I've read of other people complaining about the hill-hold feature. Is the hill-hold feature adjustable? Maybe the dealer can make a change for you.

There is no cut off at 750 RPM. I logged this a while back in my '10. I did repeated no-throttle starts in a parking lot. As you can see I dropped it to 600RPM a few times.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=296966&highlight=clutch

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mikey30 said:

The only thing I'm slightly disapointed in is that I find this car more difficult than the average car to start on moderate to steep hills. I feel like I have to give the car around half throttle with the hill hold feature to prevent it from stalling. At this point I feel like I'll be doing a clutch job at 50k.

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The OP has an '11.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=297285&highlight=Hill+holder

tomo366 said:

There is no hill holder function....

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Gee even the lowly late Studebaker had a hill holding function.

Mine has a very nice hill holder feature...also known as a hand brake.

How would a 6MT incorporate a hill hold feature?

Ski in NC said:

Mine has a very nice hill holder feature...also known as a hand brake.

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+1

crashtested said:

How would a 6MT incorporate a hill hold feature?

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Late 80's/early 90s Subaru's had a hill holder function. It was pretty straightforward. There was a valve in the brake hydraulics that was tied to the clutch pedal/cable/hydraulics. If the clutch pedal was depressed, then the brake pedal depressed, the valve kept the brakes applied when the brake pedal was released until the clutch was released. But these were non-ABS, mostly non-electronic cars.

On a MT '11, the ABS pump could be used to keep the brakes applied until the clutch is released. Or it could do it the Subaru way, or a combination of both.

crashtested said:

How would a 6MT incorporate a hill hold feature?

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As I read in my 2011 JSW owners manual, the car recognizes the conditions for a hill hold. I forget the specific conditions, but you basically have 2 seconds to get off the brake and onto the gas before the hill hold releases. Also, the hill hold maintains whatever brake pressure you had before you release it. So if you had the brake on hard, it will stay that way for 2 full seconds, meaning, the engine is pushing against gravity AND the brakes until the hill hold releases. (The manual suggests moderating the brake pressure until you have *just enough* pressure to not roll backward.) I tried this for the first time the other day. I could feel the engine wanting to go and then brake released and the front wheels slipped a bit before getting traction (crunchy snow/ice). I'm going to experiment with it a bit more, because in icy conditions, that hill hold could make it impossible to start on an icy incline. If that's the case, I'll simply e-brake it like I'm used to...

Cool!

I always assumed it was only available on the AT/DSG.

I am conviced my JSW does not have a functioning hill holder. I live on a very steep hill and have several man trans cars and motorcyles, and this thing is a real problem from a dead stop on a steep hill. Some other brands of cars have a hill holder that holds the car on a hill indefinitely until you pull away. The JSW is supposed to hold for something like 2 seconds but mine does not hold for even a fraction of a second. Its scheduled to go to the dealer to investigate. We Will See what they come up with.

OT - when I stall the engine, it will not let me re-start unless I turn the key off then back on. Is this normal?

boonsajerk said:

OT - when I stall the engine, it will not let me re-start unless I turn the key off then back on. Is this normal?

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Sadly, yes.

MayorDJQ said:

The OP has an '11.

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I have a fully-loaded '11 Golf TDI 6-speed and it does not have "hill hold"...

01/07/20111 UPDATE:

I'm filled with pooh! My '11 definitely does have "hill hold", and it works perfectly...very unobtrusive. Even though it's not needed, I wouldn't defeat it if I could. I turned off the one in my "09 Challenger R/T 6-speed because it didn't release quickly enough. This one does. Nice job, VW!

boonsajerk said:

OT - when I stall the engine, it will not let me re-start unless I turn the key off then back on. Is this normal?

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Yep. My 1973 Beetle had this 'feature' as well. Back then, it was done so you couldn't accidentally try to re-start it when it was already running, grinding the starter gear. You would think with all the electronic controls these days that it could be prevented in a new electronic way.

frugality said:

Yep. My 1973 Beetle had this 'feature' as well. Back then, it was done so you couldn't accidentally try to re-start it when it was already running, grinding the starter gear. You would think with all the electronic controls these days that it could be prevented in a new electronic way.

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This is a borderline dangerous feature. Especially when creeping out into traffic on a hill with this TDI's combo of a poor hill holder and shaky clutch engagement torque. Stall it and "yowza" it takes some quick action to relight and get out of or into the stream of traffic. And I used to drive a heavy duty truck for a living.

frugality said:

Yep. My 1973 Beetle had this 'feature' as well. Back then, it was done so you couldn't accidentally try to re-start it when it was already running, grinding the starter gear. You would think with all the electronic controls these days that it could be prevented in a new electronic way.

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There is an electronic way....that's why turning the key to START when after a stall doesn't restart the engine.

I don't know when VW changed it, but for decades you physically couldn't turn the key back to START once it had already been turned to START, regardless of whether the engine was running. Many European cars have/had this feature. My friend's '62 Beetle does it. My '80 Benz does it. Another friend had a mid '80s Saab that did the same thing.

If it were a safety feature, it would have been banned many years ago. Once you're aware of the quirk, the key can easily be cycled off/on in less than a second.

MayorDJQ said:

Once you're aware of the quirk, the key can easily be cycled off/on in less than a second.

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My old Mk4 Golf occasionally went into limp mode with an 'overboost' condition. I got good at putting the car in neutral at 70mph, shutting the car off momentarily (key all the way back...being careful not to lock the steering wheel!), and turning it back on while coasting.

frugality said:

My old Mk4 Golf occasionally went into limp mode with an 'overboost' condition. I got good at putting the car in neutral at 70mph, shutting the car off momentarily (key all the way back...being careful not to lock the steering wheel!), and turning it back on while coasting.

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You have to remove the key to lock the steering wheel.

MayorDJQ said:

There is an electronic way....that's why turning the key to START when after a stall doesn't restart the engine.

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What VW needs to do is just introduce is revised programming logic to their multiplexing. In other words:

If clutch engaged, trans in neutral and engine off, OK to restart engine.

Right now they are saying (I assume) its not OK to restart then engine unless ignition is cycled on and off.

Perhaps there is a mechanical reason they require to cycle the key off that has nothing to do with safety.

My '09 would restart without cylcing the key. It would take a second or two, so it was quicker to cycle the key on/off. With the '10 I have to cycle the key.

MayorDJQ said:

Late 80's/early 90s Subaru's had a hill holder function. It was pretty straightforward. There was a valve in the brake hydraulics that was tied to the clutch pedal/cable/hydraulics. If the clutch pedal was depressed, then the brake pedal depressed, the valve kept the brakes applied when the brake pedal was released until the clutch was released. But these were non-ABS, mostly non-electronic cars.

On a MT '11, the ABS pump could be used to keep the brakes applied until the clutch is released. Or it could do it the Subaru way, or a combination of both.

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Early 80's Subarus had this feature. I had it in an 82 GL Wagon with the 4 speed MT. It worked nice until the cable broke. The clutch linkage was also cable-operated (not hydraulic) and the clutch cable and cable going to the brake system both attached at the clutch fork. I had the hill holder cable replaced and the Subie dealer adjusted it so far out that it almost wouldn't let me start up at all. It would hold the brakes until I was almost totally off the clutch before it let go. I ended up adjusting it far in the other direction so it lets go on the early side of clutch engagement as the pedal comes up from the floor. I recall I later disabled it completely.

The valve in the brake master cylinder was used to hold pressure in the brake system when your left foot was on the clutch. You also had to be on enough of a hill for it to work too. When the car was tipped on enough of a hill, brake fluid would fill an additional chamber in the brake master cylinder. When stepping on the clutch AND on a hill AND stepping on the brakes, the pressure hold valve would hold brake system pressure, even if you took your foot off the brake pedal. IIRC, the valve blocks input from the pedal while trapping fluid in the chamber. As you brought the clutch pedal up, the pressure hold valve would then open and release brake fluid trapped in the chamber and let the brakes go.

From my experiences with the Subaru hill hold feature, I prefer to not have it at all. With my Subie years ago, there were situations where I wanted to back downhill slowly and carefully but the hill hold feature kept getting in the way. I had to put it in neutral and let the clutch out for it to let me back down the hill while applying brakes under my control.

My 2010 JSW TDI 6MT definitely does not have a hill holder feature.

frugality said:

My old Mk4 Golf occasionally went into limp mode with an 'overboost' condition. I got good at putting the car in neutral at 70mph, shutting the car off momentarily (key all the way back...being careful not to lock the steering wheel!), and turning it back on while coasting.

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As long as you don't pull the key out, the steering wheel will not lock. It is designed this way as a safety feature. Whatever you do, absolutely DO NOT pull the key out! If you pull it out by accident, get it back in there and "ON" quick!

With my 2010 JSW TDI, it took me a little while to get used to the super silky smooth engagement of the clutch. Now that I'm used to it, I love it, even with stop and go traffic in places like Boston.

As for stalling the engine at startup, I've done it a few times too. I've found the engine behaves much like the PD engines as for how you can stall them at idle. They aren't like A4 TDIs with an ALH engine where they are definitely more truck-like with the gobs of torque at idle RPMs. The PDs and CR TDIs behave more like gassers at idle compared to an ALH TDI.