Appears to be a Fix for Gen 1 cars! Gen 2-3 are Software.

That's funny, there's a dealer selling a (2017, yes, not 2015) 328d for $38,651: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...archRadius=0&makeCode1=BMW&modelCode1=BMW328D

And, base to base isn't a fair comparison when you're comparing a higher-end car that has more equipment standard.

rotarykid said:

Come on......ARe you really saying comparing a base of one to maximum available model in the other is any way compares.....Compares to WHAT???your statement is meaningless BS!@!
You want to compare prices, then compare What was actually sold first by BMW sold to the actual sold first generations of the CR engine's cars. and you compare base to base, your comparison is meaningless BS!!!!
you are comparing a base BMW that cannot/could not even be purchased anywhere in the US to a fully loaded VW TDI-CR with every option offered, how is that fair or in any way an equal comparison????
A base Jetta/Golf TDi-CR a car that could actually be found & purchased was what ~22-24k, the Passat which is much more car than the Jetta/Golf which could be out the door for that to what(~25-26k for a base TDI-CR).....
Using your BMW base model list price, a car no one sells in that base model for anything close to that base price comparison numbers comparing real VW cars that could have been actually bought new you are talking about ~16k more for the base to base Jetta/Golf & 13-14k more base to base.....
Now here is the reality I have looked at BMW dealers and found that to get this car (the lowest cost version available) will cost you at least 45-47k when minimum on car markups, options & equipment are figured in....
Using the actual prices I have seen on the cars available on a lot base to base, the only comparison that really maters......22-24k to 45-47 ~~ a 23k more difference from VW diesels to BMW recently offered diesels!
And if you want to compare a fully loaded of each, you get can get that BMW's price very close to that ~55-60k mark, comparing your actually sold fully loaded cars gives even more difference...... ~31k for a fully loaded Jetta/Golf gives 24-29k more difference & on your Passat gives 20-25k more difference....
And on comparing the actual competitor to the BMW offering today to the current CR cars with the E288 engine that have urea they can be brought within spec fairly easily with programming changes and a little different emissions equipment....
But the only fair comparison to the previous VW CRs is to compare what the actual larger engine'd BMW cost when they were being sold. And if you are going to compare base in one, then the only real comparison is base in the other one!!!!!
Your comparison is just a lot on BS, comparing the current BMW car base price, a price not possible to find on a car with at least 7 years of improvement to emissions tech to what VW was doing 7 years ago, come on you can't be that uninformed and be on here......

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Are you really suggesting that comparing two cars from the same model year is an unfair comparison?
Are you really suggesting a Jetta is a comparable car to a BMW 3 series?
Are you really suggesting that a Premium Passat is a nicer car than a 3 series with standard equipment?
Are you really suggesting that because cars built to be displayed on lots to woo potential buyers and have thus been equipped attractively are more expensive than a base model that a base model cannot be purchased from BMW? Be careful how you answer.

Your logic needs a lot of work.

bhtooefr said:

That's funny, there's a dealer selling a (2017, yes, not 2015) 328d for $38,651: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...archRadius=0&makeCode1=BMW&modelCode1=BMW328D


And, base to base isn't a fair comparison when you're comparing a higher-end car that has more equipment standard.

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My point exactly.

I really like the looks of the 328d. I'd probably jump on one if they offered a manual.

In 2017 pricing, compare BMW's 330i to the 328d. Those cars are equipped the same, other than the engine. The 328d is $1,500 more than the 330i. Not a big price bump.

Of course, as others have mentioned, you're not going to find a no-options 328d on any BMW lot. And in New England you'll not find a RWD one, only X-Drive.

What's more interesting is that a 2014 328d with 30K on it is worth about $20K, according to KBB. These cars depreciate quickly, and the pace accelerates as they get older. Buying used can be pretty attractive.

bhtooefr said:

That's funny, there's a dealer selling a (2017, yes, not 2015) 328d for $38,651: http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...archRadius=0&makeCode1=BMW&modelCode1=BMW328D

And, base to base isn't a fair comparison when you're comparing a higher-end car that has more equipment standard.

Click to expand...

The MSRP sticker on that car is $43,600, have you called and actually verified they have the car? This is a well known ploy to get buyers in the door, you advertise a car you do not have, we just sold it(LOL) to try to sell you the car they do have...

The cars I saw in denver were all $45-47k minimum, with loaded cars $55-60k+....

the base cars are what the auto makers sees as the cheapest price they can passably offer that engine in our market!

All of those options are added as a way to get the base price to the minimum make money point to passably offer the diesel option in the US market. That is why we are not offered the TDI below that threshold price!

BMW does exactly the same math, they add ($X) amount of options to the diesel model to have the car well equipped enough to make the diesel option feasible for the US market....


Chevy did exactly the same thing with the Cruise TD they recently sold here, a minimum option package to push the price high enough to recover the added costs to pass our stupid overzealous emissions......


Those options cost the auto maker pennies per unit to a few dollars, option are pure profit that automakers can charge for and make real profits from...

Options costing manufacturers next to nothing have for years been used for massive amounts of profit.... And recently in specialty models like diesel offerings are now there to just to pad the price to the point to make the car sell-able here & recover the added costs related to offering a diesel option here! Nothing more....

Again the only real comparison that is fair, what is the base price to base price comparison, that tells you how much more those emissions cost to offer the car here.......

It comes down to this, today no one in the US would buy these cars at anything close to their base price without all of these options added to them. Options which cost the automaker very little to add, options that are added to all offered today diesels here to make the cars appear to have more value than it actually does to make up for high costs related making a diesel pass our stupid overzealous emissions rules........

VW's, Audi's, MB's, BMW's, ect w/diesel option'd....all current diesel models base price has almost nothing to do with how the car is equipped, but is a real measure of what emissions equipment costs to make the car legal to sell here....

You want to know how much more has been spent on getting the diesel certified for sale here, look at the cheapest model offered here.....

Look up what the car costs in other markets that do not have our strict emissions regs....figure in the difference more for the diesel option'd car there you have it....they figure out how much they can charge for the car, and how much in added options will be required to make up the rest of emissions certification & design will cost...there you will get the base price....

that is how much more has needed to have been spent to get that diesel engine to pass our e-test.....

Do note that BMW has a European Delivery program, and that would only work on ordered cars. Therefore, it's possible to order one...

rotarykid said:

Again the only real comparison that is fair, what is the base price to base price comparison, that tells you how much more those emissions cost to offer the car here.......
It comes down to this, today no one in the US would buy these cars at anything close to their base price without all of these options added to them. Options which cost the automaker very little to add, options that are added to all offered today diesels here to make the cars appear to have more value than it actually does to make up for high costs related making a diesel pass our stupid overzealous emissions rules........
VW's, Audi's, MB's, BMW's, ect w/diesel option'd....all current diesel models base price has almost nothing to do with how the car is equipped, but is a real measure of what emissions equipment costs to make the car legal to sell here....
You want to know how much more has been spent on getting the diesel certified for sale here, look at the cheapest model offered here.....
Look up what the car costs in other markets that do not have our strict emissions regs....figure in the difference more for the diesel option'd car there you have it....they figure out how much they can charge for the car, and how much in added options will be required to make up the rest of emissions certification & design will cost...there you will get the base price....
that is how much more has needed to have been spent to get that diesel engine to pass our e-test.....

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Do you actually believe what you write? Do you really think the difference in MSRP between any two cars reflects the actual cost difference between them and is not a function of how much the manufacturer has decided to charge for them based on market position, production capacity, the desire to actually sell models at that price, etc etc etc? You do not understand how the automotive industry works. You also clearly don't understand that emissions equipment are not the only components that add additional production and development cost to a vehicle sold in the US vs elsewhere.

The base price for the 2015 Jetta TDI was US$22,460. The base price for the 2014 Jetta TDI was US$22,115. The 2015 models came with SCR. Using your logic that means the added cost of complex emissions controls is only $345! And that's not factoring in inflation!

Are you for real?

bhtooefr said:

Do note that BMW has a European Delivery program, and that would only work on ordered cars. Therefore, it's possible to order one...

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The European Delivery program is a nice option. Just over a year ago, I looked hard at this. Pricing was 7 to 8% below MSRP and you don't have to rent a car in Europe.

fnjimmy! said:

Do you actually believe what you write? Do you really think the difference in MSRP between any two cars reflects the actual cost difference between them and is not a function of how much the manufacturer has decided to charge for them based on market position, production capacity, the desire to actually sell models at that price, etc etc etc? You do not understand how the automotive industry works. You also clearly don't understand that emissions equipment are not the only components that add additional production and development cost to a vehicle sold in the US vs elsewhere.
The base price for the 2015 Jetta TDI was US$22,460. The base price for the 2014 Jetta TDI was US$22,115. The 2015 models came with SCR. Using your logic that means the added cost of complex emissions controls is only $345! And that's not factoring in inflation!
Are you for real?

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Yes I do based on close to 40 years of working in the auto sales & repair industry. I believe every word is based on the facts as I know them..

rotarykid said:

Yes I do based on close to 40 years of working in the auto sales & repair industry. I believe every word is based on the facts as I know them..

Click to expand...

That says it all right there. I know when I want accurate information about how much it costs Apple to build computers and how they arrive at retail price. I hit up the GeekSquad over at Best Buy. They sell and fix computers so they're experts.

Any sense of when we might know when the fix for general 1 will be announced? I'm on the verge of needing to make a decision. At 130,000 miles and will only do the timing belt if a fix is possible and I know I would keep it. Thanks.

Deadline if courts haven't approved extensions is mid to late March.

I got an email this morning from VW stating that a fix was available for my vehicle (Gen 1 JSW TDI).

So it's actually beginning to happen.

Fourplay said:

I got an email this morning from VW stating that a fix was available for my vehicle (Gen 1 JSW TDI).

So it's actually beginning to happen.

Click to expand...

More info? Curious...

Fourplay said:

I got an email this morning from VW stating that a fix was available for my vehicle (Gen 1 JSW TDI).
So it's actually beginning to happen.

Click to expand...

Does it explicitly say it's for gen 1? Doubtful.

Or it's just the similar one for gen 3 that I received?

MBQ said:

Does it explicitly say it's for gen 1? Doubtful.
Or it's just the similar one for gen 3 that I received?

Click to expand...

It's the latter. I didn't actually click the link.

It's odd because I don't own (nor have I ever) a 2015, yet they said "a fix is available for your vehicle". More incompetence on VWs part I suppose.

Could you share the content of the email? I'd love to look at the headers to see who it's from...

-J

just checked the online claims site. for my 2009 JSW it says this:

Volkswagen Group of America <TDISettlementSupport_NoReply@vw.com> Feb 14 at 6:38 AM
To
@yahoo.com
Message body
The EPA and CARB have approved an emissions modification for your vehicle. For more information on the Approved Emissions Modification including information on what the modification involves, the impact (if any) that the modification will have on the vehicle and the terms of the extended emissions warranty, please click here.
What do I need to do now?
If you have not yet registered an account and/or submitted supporting information and documentation for your claim to participate in the Settlement Program, you may submit a claim through the Online Claims Portal or the Paper Claims Form.
If you already submitted a claim and selected an Approved Emissions Modification as your remedy, you do not need to do anything. Volkswagen will process your claim in the normal claims review process.
If you have already received and accepted an offer letter for an Approved Emissions Modification and your signed offer letter has been accepted by Volkswagen, you may now schedule your appointment for an Approved Emissions Modification via the Online Claims Portal or by calling your preferred dealer.
If you do not wish to participate in the Settlement Program but want to get an Approved Emissions Modification on your vehicle, you may schedule an appointment directly with your preferred dealer.
The Approved Emissions Modification will be completed in two stages. Upon completion of the first stage of the Approved Emissions Modification, eligible consumers participating in the Settlement Program will receive 2/3 of the payment amount to which they are entitled. Upon completion of the second stage of the Approved Emissions Modification, eligible consumers participating in the Settlement Program will receive the last 1/3 of the payment amount to which they are entitled.
If a consumer sells or otherwise transfers ownership of their vehicle before the second stage of the Approved Emissions Modification can be completed, they will not be eligible to receive the last 1/3 of the payment, but the new owner will be able to submit a claim and complete the second stage of the approved emissions modification to receive the last 1/3 of the payment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This email is being sent from an account that does not receive replies. For questions or other issues related to the VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement, please visit www.VWCourtSettlement.com or contact the Settlement Support Team at 1-844-98-CLAIM.

I have a 2013 Passat and I have a similar letter. Seeing as there is no fix approved yet for my vehicle, I just filed it for now. Not sure what to think though.

BleachedBora said:

"Gen 1 vehicles will require parts. Gen 2 and Gen 3 Phase 1 are software only..."

Also to answer your other question, if a customer brings in a vehicle with a CEL then the dealer opens a case on it. If the CEL has anything to do with the emissions and the update then it has to be resolved. If it is outside of warranty then it's the customers responsibility to fix before the modification.

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That makes me glad we took the buyback. There was NO FREAKING WAY I was going to put $2500 into that car to replace their crappy DPF - that's on THEM. My Wifes car ate two DPFs and a turbo (Most likely due to the stresses of regen - snapped shaft - never run low on oil) inside of 102k. Personally, I feel we got screwed, considering her car had four BRAND NEW TIRES and a BRAND NEW TURBO (Just to pass 'inspection' until they bought it back) - we should have gotten at least another $2k for those! Tell me I have to spend that cash to fix their problem before they'll fix the rest? Telling me I have to spend more than 25% of its KBB value to fix it? Screw that. And the DPF is a horrible joke gone wrong. I don't know who thought they were a good idea, but they are the worst idea since EGR on diesels. It may not be good to be huffing diesel soot, but the particulate matter that you can be sure is being released by DPFs is FAR worse for human health than the soot it's capturing. The soot is made up of fairly large carbon particles - these particles will settle down to the ground fairly quickly and end up returning to nature. There is no way to make a filter capable of capturing 100% of particulates - the only way would be a plug - and that's obviously not going to work for an engine. So you can bet the farm that ASH particles ARE escaping from these DPFs. These ash particles are FAR finer than those soot particles the DPF stops and turns to ash. And while a large majority of these particles I'm sure are captured, a decent mount still escape. These ash particles are FINE - meaning they will remain airborne far longer than the soot and can embed deeper into soft tissue than the larger soot particles, and they can even be absorbed through the skin. The cleaning of DPFs is a very particular process, generally done inside sealed machines, for this reason.

And as far as VWs 'cheat' - at the end of the day, while they make it sound like the TDIs were spewing a billion metric tonnes of crap into the atmosphere, at the end of the day, what the TDIs were doing vs what they 'should' have been doing were minuscule (percentages are wonderful smoke and mirrors things - 75% of 'not much' isn't much). It's reasonably safe to say that there are plenty of 'EPA complaint' vehicles that are putting out the same or more than the 'non-compliant' TDIs were.

At the end of the day, I wouldn't be at all shocked if the oil companies were in some way tied to all this. It's no secret that DPF deleted and pre DPF cars get better mileage - in the TDIs by 10+MPG from what I've read. I've read plenty of DPF equipped GM diesels going from low to mid teens to high teens/low 20's in mileage with a DPF delete.

In the end - if the the 'EPA' want's this garbage on diesel vehicles, forget the fact that it's worse for human health for a second, it should have a LIFETIME warranty (NOT original owner - as long as the vehicle is driveble) on anything 'emissions' related in any way. Otherwise, we should have path to remove this junk.

I REALLY wish the diesel cruze had been available when she needed to get a new car... not saying they didn't have issues, but at the very least, they are a TON easier to work on (who was the moron at VW that decided to put the turbo and DPF on the BACK of the engine and interfere with the subframe!?!?!?!?)

flame away....

Yesterday I received news from a reliable source inside VW that the Gen 2 fix will be launched soon. And that VW has every intention of fixing bought back cars and offering them to dealers. No word on when the Gen 1 fix will be available...yet.

As a G2 owner, great news !

Of course, that brings to the forefront the seminal question I have posted earlier - on timing of the fix. Do we ride out the G2's 120K turbo wty and then go for the fix, risking HPFP failure (however rare these seem to be in G2).

Or, we spring right in for the fix, collect the comprehensive wty bump and the hefty $$$ that come with it.

Since you don't know what the warranty is yet on the fix you're dealing with incomplete information. However, if your turbo and HPFP haven't failed yet, I doubt failure is imminent.

On the fixing of bought-back cars - that would be sweet. Might actually change, for some, the BB vs Fix thinking.

If one could score fixed '15 TDI, with 0 or low miles for say $15K, why wouldn't you flip your 100K+ vehicle - get back the same TDI, wty and that new car scent with just a hint of stale air (reminder of car having spent 1.5Y at a lot somewhere)

I thought they spelled out, the court treasure trove of papers, the fix wty bump as +48/3 or 150K, whichever higher. I will be in the former category at the time of the fix.

Isn't that new or additional warrenty after the fix and not since the car was new?

The extended warranty required by the settlements is 10 yrs/120k from new for Gen1 and Gen2 cars, 10 yrs/150k from new for Gen3, or 4 yrs/48k from fix for any of them. The Gen3 fix carries a longer extended warranty than required by the settlements; it's uncertain whether this will be the case for any other cars.

Matt-98AHU said:

The other news somewhat underreported is that there has been significant advancements in injection strategy that is also helping to clean them up while retaining fuel economy and performance, or in some cases improving them. Gen 3 owners have noted a change in engine tone, particularly at idle and low RPMs, but have reported better response off the line and fuel economy either about the same or ever so slightly better than what they originally were.

Click to expand...

Gen 3 required faster urea / SCR consumption. Correct? They faced either more diesel to the LNT, or boosting SCR, to get NOx down. The problem with running lean (efficient) is it leads to greater NOx, not less, as I understand it.

I believe the whole backstory of breaking the law was partially a choice not to sacrifice the true efficiency gains VW had achieved with its EA189 motor, or I think the injection strategy you're talking about. It's like telling your engineers you want power and efficiency and, "oh, by the way can you squirt some extra diesel at those cats". In the end, the LNT strategy was never capable of even the Euro 6 spec (.07~.08/km NOx) much less our own.